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Israeli Army Chief: The Bible Is Our Guide

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posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 11:27 AM
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reply to post by Sigismundus
 




So it seems VERY odd to me indeed that some modern day Zionist named (significantly) ‘Ashkenazi’ (who probably represents the views of a sizeable portion of the present day IDF soldier class in modern Israel) would hold up the warped - re-edited late copy of the so-called Masoretic text cf the ‘ Jewish Bible’ (i.e. the old testament in the 'Russian-Codex Leningrad' pointed (vowelled) consonantal text version from AD 960, some 1000 years AFTER the EARLIER-MORE PRIMITIVE VERSIONS of the TEXT among Dead Sea Scroll copies were being made and circulated in antiquity - a DIFFERENCE in TEXT CONSONANTS of up to 18 % on average !!) as some kind of ‘divine’ Midrashic Talisman when the REAL historical records clearly show beyond ANY doubt that ancient Jews LOST practically EVERY battle they ever fought in antiquity against the neighbouring Gentile nations – surely he (and his IDF cronies) cannot be THAT ignorant of the facts of REAL history?


Went to public school did you!!??

What those knowledgeable in the Bible know..is not how many battles the Hebrews won or lost...but that the Word was preserved unto today...and that out of a certain Line...was to come the Messiah. That is it!.

What is also clear is that when this was completed...by 70 ad...some 40 years after the Crucifixion...the nation we know as Israel was destroyed and these people spread around the world. What we know as the diaspora.

God had finished with these people and what they were supposed to do.

Not how many battles they won or lost.

The central theme in the Bible is that God Preserved His Word for us today...and that out of a certain line would come the Messiah.

That is it..in toto.

Not how many battles one has won. For it is obvious that this was a stiff necked and rebellious people and we have this record in the Word as well.

The nation we know as Israel today is a phony man made gnostic contstruct...still filled with stiffnecked rebellious peoples.

I know this because the Believers Jerusalem which is above is free and the mother of us all..not the one which now is and is in bondage with her children....after Ishmael. We are of Issac..not Ishmael.
This is how one spots a counterfeit and a phony. You dont have to know all the details but it helps. There are lots of phonys and counterfeits like this around us. The preserved Word helps one to spot them ...daily.

Thanks,
Orangetom




posted on Apr, 25 2010 @ 10:15 PM
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Hi OrangeTom 1999

You wrote: “…not how many battles the Hebrews won or lost...but that the Word was preserved unto today…”

I’m not sure what you have against the British Public School System howbeit, what ‘WORD’ (‘sacred Scriptures’) are you referring to in your post exactly? And in which VERSION, precisely ? What EXACT Hebrew prophecy-midrash Scriptures Scrolls are you talking about? And be precise because it bears upon your argument (or what passes for one !)
Are you referring to the ‘sacred writings’ that the earliest Nazorean Messianist Jews (later ‘Christians’) used, including such texts as:

e.g. ‘The Book of the Testaments of the 12 Patriarchs being the Sons of Yakkov’,

or the ‘Book of Jubilees ‘(i.e. =The Testament of Moses)

or ‘The Wisdom of ben Sirach’ (=aka Ecclesiasticus)

or the ‘Words of Henoch the Son of Jared to all the Sons of Light in the Last Days’ etc.–

All of these are freely quoted directly in the NT (e.g. Jude 1:14, 4th Gk Canonical Gospel (‘according to ‘John’ whoever he was) chap 4:22b (mis-quoting the Testament of Naphtali, chapter 9:13) i.e. the Samaritan at the Well ) or indirectly (see Wisdom of Solomon; chapter 1 ‘sorrowful unto death is the man to whom his best friend has betrayed etc) which are the same texts that R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean (Gk. Iesous) knew (although no longer used by persons today who call themselves ‘Christians’)?

OR …are you referring perhaps to the ‘Scriptures’ that Rabinnic Jews use as ‘the word of YHWH’ to-day (a family of MSS based mainly upon the so-called Mas0retic (pointed) Text from 960 CE –in Leningrad) which is a smallish sampling of the larger body of ‘holy’ Scriptures used by Messianic Jewish ‘Christians’ during the lifetime of ‘Iesous’ & his followers (i.e. before the 1st Jewish War with Rome)

NB: the MT represents ONLY ONE (vowelled) rendition of MANY CONTRADICTORY versions of the OT out there ‘in the wild’ (to say nothing of all the alternative pointing of the consonantal texts themselves – even the text upon which the later MTis based is VASTLY DIFFERENT (up to 20% in places, e.g. the ‘Book of Jeremiah’ =different by 13 whole chapters) i.e. from the Vorlag Hebrew consonantal text underlay pre-supposed by the Greek OT (LXX) &DIFFERENT again from the Greek of e.g. Symmachus &Theodotion & the Dead Sea Scroll Text families in caves 1-11...

Then you wrote: “What we know as the Diaspora.”

Actually, you have your facts wrong again: the so-called ‘Diaspora of the Jews’ began much earlier with the Assyrian conquest of the 10 northern tribelets (can you say EXILE?) from which they never returned (BCE 721 to BCE 701) &compounded by the Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem in 587 BCE (more exiles into the Diaspora) & the gradual Diasporas from BCE 331 to CE 72 when Judah was ground by powder by Rome leaving 900,000 dead Jews behind. Saul of TARSUS (capital of Cilicia in TURKEY) claimed to be descended from Diaspora Jews who migrated from Palestine long before the Romans destroyed Israel in 70 CE.

Then you wrote: “God had finished with these people and what they were supposed to do. “

Which ‘god’ are you referring to? Yahweh, the post-Exilic clan god of the Jews? If so, say so. Always referring to YHWH as ‘god’ would be like saying ‘The President’ &ALWAYS in every case referring specifically to Millard Fillmore.

NB: There were many ‘gods’ actively being worshipped in the ancient near east & Israel also worshipped many gods /goddesses before Ezra’s ‘monotheistic’ reforms in c. 420 BCE. So, you have will have to clarify your terms if you wish to be coherent

Then you wrote: “The central theme in the Bible is that God Preserved His Word for us today...”

In view of the facts of modern textual criticism, this claim is specious: ALL the surviving evidence point to the absolute OPPOSITE position especially by a ‘close reading’ of the MSS re-discovered c. Nov 1946 in caves 1-11 of the Dead Sea Scrolls (sealed up into virtual TIME CAPSULES during the 1st Failed Jewish War against Rome in June 68 CE)

All of which show the world (despite later Rabinnic and Vatican ‘purposeful’ delays in the open publication of much of this embarrassing textual affair to their tithing ‘sheeeple) that the Hebrew TEXT FAMILIES of Jewish Scriptures were a mixed bag of ‘corrupt hand copied MSS’ – clearly seen by comparing the Vorlage ‘textual underlay’ to the LXX with the MT & with the Vorlag Hebrew consonantal text underlay to the Greek OT by such persons as Symmachus & Theodotion &Aquila (all of which are DIFFERENT) & by a lettter by letter comparison with the Dead Sea Scrolls from Caves 1-11 –

Which clearly reveals at least 4 different families of texts for later canonical OT in circulation at the same time during the lifetime of R. Yehoshua & the earliest Christian Messianic Jewish Communities –
In fact there is a excesss of 20% letter by letter difffernece between the consontnants of these conflicting text families at times: the old testmanet was not even voted upon as a single set of books (let alone codified set of exact ‘words’) that ‘defiled the hands’ (i.e. sacred scripture) until AFTER Jerusalem was ground to powder by Rome in 70 CE (cf: the Rabinnic council of Javneh-Jamnia in 90 CE by the Babylonian proto-Masoretic Consontantal Text-loving Rabbi Hillel II who IMPOSED HIS OWN OWN SINGLE warped (& late) VERSION of the OT ‘scriptures’ upon rabinninc Jews worldwide (all other text families not conforming to HIS protoMasoretic were destroyed le – but Hillel did not know that caves 1-11 had hidden older /more accurate handwritten MSS in their time capsules (otherwise he would have destroyed the evidence)

Interestingly the words placed into the mouth of the Greek-speaking ‘Ieosus’ in the 4 canonical Gospels (e.g. the 1st - according to Matthew’ whoever he was) are often at great odds (examining word for word) with the later MT version of the OT used by Jews / Protestants to-day yet closely echo the Aramaic Targum & certain exact quotations from the ‘Dead Sea Scroll’ material in Caves 1-11 – though ‘Matthew’s OT quotations’ often pre-suppose a DIFFERENT Hebrew Consonantal text (see Matt 2:23 for a single example of more than 2 dozen of the same)
It is clear you are not ‘schooled’ unpointed PaleoHebrew or know any Galilean Aramaic …so if you cannot read the original texts, how can you possibly know what the WORD actually says (or doesn’t say) ?



posted on Apr, 26 2010 @ 01:49 AM
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Originally posted by JanusFIN

Israeli Army Chief: The Bible Is Our Guide


www.israeltoday.co.il

Israeli army chief Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi firmly stated last week that the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) view the Bible as the number one influence on its conduct and mission.

"The IDF sees the Bible as a guide in the deep and practical sense of the word," said Ashkenazi. "It is no accident that the IDF swears in its soldiers with a weapon in one hand and the Bible in the other – a custom that reflects the uniqueness of the IDF and the deep bond of the Jewish people to the Book of Books."
(visit the link for the full news article)



Which Bible??? Lol, that is THE question. Also, they like the Old Testament (like part one of a movie). Part 2, and the FINAL MOVIE in the series holds the "Only through Jesus can you know the Lord, the Father." Paraphrased. HOWEVER, they burn the New Testament in the streets and hate Jesus (lots of them, being Israeli citizens). The New Testament lays it out, says it will happen. Israel must turn to Jesus, accept HIM as the Messiah, then their "bad fortunes" will go away. Instead, they preach the Old Testament and the FIRST COVENANT. THEY BROKE that Covenant, and the New Covenant maintains there is ONE WAY to receive Father's blessing and gift; JESUS.

TRULY, being against Jesus IS, by definition, "ANTI-CHRIST" yet nobody talks about this. Still, the New World Order uses Israel as a tool, and hides behind "Zionism." Zionism is bad, look at Gaza, BUT the World Banks and others who are above Zionists in the totem pole of power USE Israel. I'd argue Obama is trying to break that now, and ruin the U.S. and Israel as his puppet masters tell him to do.

Like a whore, they will find ANOTHER to believe in, to lead them, who they will see as powerful, and they will be deceived; this is the ACTUAL Anti-Christ. Bibi? Obama? Prince Charles (research this, interesting links there)? No clue, but everything is unfolding as it was foretold.

[edit on 26-4-2010 by AdmiralX]



posted on Apr, 27 2010 @ 12:15 PM
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reply to post by Sigismundus
 


Sigismundus,

Thanks for a very nice long post with lots of details.

I know what is in the Apocrypha and I am not impressed with it. Nor many of what are termed the Lost books of the Bible.

If I want to get copies of this stuff I go down to Virginia Beach, Virginia just down the road from me and visit the library at the Edgar Caycee Center. I can also find there many Occult Works not available in public libraries. One of my favorite is the Egyptian Book of the Dead as well as Manley Palmer Hall's...The Secret Teachings of All Ages. There are many others...as well.

All of these including much of what you quote comes under the headings of gnostic teachings. Wise men ..intelligences..Sophists.

This is in fact the origins of much of what is being taught in public schools today...under the guise of Humanist studies.

One of the give aways is the treatise or papers from the Dead Sea Scrolls on the sons of light.

The Hebrews were to my knowledge put in bondage some seven times in the Olde testament. The one to which I refer as the Diaspora was the time when the nation was removed...from the earth. This is the first time we have a record of a whole nation being removed...a people and a religion altered..by the destruction of their temple. After this we see the synagogue coming into play.

I have little use for the gnostic texts as one of the things I do is study gnostic/occult religions when I have time and good material to read. It is the dominant religion surrounding us today and the religion being attempted to infiltrate America as it has already infiltrated England and the Continent. Australia too. It is the religion behind Humanist doctrines...as well as atheist and many anarchist doctrines. It is the religion of wise men..men of reason and logic...rational, logical, reasonable.

It is not of Faith.


I am also aware of this template as it has infiltrated modern Judaism. It infiltrated the Law..with the complicity of the Jews themselves before the time of Jesus. This is this very template about which he was rebuking the Hebrew/Jewish leadership and for which rebuke he was killed by them.

However...I should also tell you that I do not travel to the East..up seven steps...but I know what it means. I also know how it is missing from much of public education.....everywhere.

While I am thinking about it..I also know that when I read Olde Testament to a Jew out of the King James/AV 1611 ..they know exactly of what I am speaking.

When I read Olde Testament from one of the new versions of the Bible from the Codex B or Sinaiticus, or Origins copies....they have to think about it awhile because it does not flow with what they have been taught from the Tanach or the Torah.

There is one book complete from the Olde Testament in the Dead Sea Scrolls..the Book of Isaiah..just as we have it in the King James of 1611 today.

Thanks,
Orangetom







[edit on 27-4-2010 by orangetom1999]



posted on Apr, 27 2010 @ 12:23 PM
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reply to post by Intelearthling
 


Im a Christian. I know scripture, and I refuse to be drawn into a biblical tennis match. However I also know that Israel posses anti missile /anti projectile tech which makes thier borders BOMB PROOF. They dont use it because the government there like an excuse to take more land, and nothing says excuse like being surrounded by naugty terror types who keep killing the populus.
If they wanted , Israel could turn on a few million dollars worth of machinery and they would never see another rocket bomb, or enemy bullet, they would be taken out of the air mere moments after being fired. They dont do it, because they are not interested in thier people. The men who enable this should be ashamed.



posted on Apr, 27 2010 @ 05:43 PM
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Hi Orangetom --

Actually, most of the extra-canonical texts I mentioned in my post were not 'Apocryphal' texts at all, but were 'Pseudipigraphical' ('falsely-ascribed') scrolls with fake names placed on them - e.g. Testament of the 12 Patriarchs or Testament of Moses or Words of Henoch the Son of Jared to all the sons of Light in the Last Days - they are 'fake' (falsly attributed) just like the later Greek canonical council approved Gospels whose authors are actually unknown since they circulated for more than a century without titles or attributions - and the later names attached to them are spurious - based on Eusebeius's recollections from Papias more than 150 years before his time - hardly trustworthy (but interesting in their own right).

You did know, didn't you, that R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean Nazir (Greek: Iesous) quoted freely from both the Apocrypha and the Pseudipigrapha as IF THEY WERE CANONICAL? The Old testament did not exist as a 'single book between two covers until after Javneh in 90 CE.

See the Scroll of the Book of the Testament of Naphtali chapter 8:13

"For in the last Days, it will happen that the Salvation of Israel shall come from the Judaeans"

which is placed into his mouth in the form of a fake prophecy of the Assyrian Conquest in 722-701 BCE when the Israelites in the north ran screaming for their mommies into Judaea (the text of the scroll is writen poetically not historically - therefore pseudopigraphically i.e. as if Naphtali actually uttered those words, even though in a much later Aramaic dialect from around BCE 165 i.e. much later than any historical Naphtali's Ugaritic paleoHebrew would have been c. 1600 BCE)

So what does the Greek Speaking IESOUS say to the woman at the well in the 4th Gospel ('according to John' whoever he was)

'You Samaratim worship in a place where no one knows anything about, but the Judaeans worship in a place (i.e. Jerusalem) where we DO know about, for : "the Salvation [of Israel] is from the Judaeans.'

The quotation placed into the mouth of the Greek Speaking Iesous is mangled ('salvation of Israel' comes out 'Salvation' i.e. in general) and is introduced by GAR in Greek - which precedes a citation from the 'Hebrews' Holy scriptures' uttered in the style of a Rabinnic Proof Text, = EVEN AS IT IS WRITTEN.

So the Greek speaking Gospel IESOUS (BCE 12 to 36 CE) is seen quoting from a Scroll/Book that DID NOT get voted into the Jewish Canonical Old Testament in Javneh in 90 CE - i.e. way AFTER Jerusalem was destroyed by Rome in 70 CE - but a BOOK that was found among the Dead Sea Scrolls in Cave 4 (most of which lie in fragments still being glued together)

In terms of the copies of the OT texts floating around in Antiquity and with the Scroll of the prophet Isaiah in particular, the Dead Sea Scrolls Copies DO NOT Match the Masoretic texts very closely (at least in the earlier caves 1-11); the other remote scroll discoveries around Wadi-Muraba'at and other places (outside of the caves) date from POST-Javneh (post 90 CE) and are more in line with Hillel II's reformed texts which led to the canon used today in rabinnic Judaiesm.

First, you might as well inow (since your rabbi /minister / priest will probably NEVER tell you - even if they knew it) the 'Great' Isaiah Scroll is NOT in one copy in Qumran Cave 1 : It actually exists in TWO copies, found laying side by side (Q1 Is-a and Q1 Is-b);

The first copy of the Scroll of the Book of the Prophet Isaiah (1Q-Is-a) is quite close to what modern Protestants and Jews read today: about 91% the same as the Masoretic MT text - i.e. the pointed consonantal text used by the later Rabbis (post Masorete 960 CE) based on a SINGLE mss copy from Leningrad, the socalled Masoretic Text - that is if you count consonant by consontant.

The other older copy (IQ-Is-b) is ONLY c. 79% the same as the consonantal text of the MT used by Rabinnic (non sacrificial) Jews and Protestants today- that is if you count consonant by consonant.

So don't go around stating that the Isaiah scroll is the SAME as the Masoretic - only one of them bears any real resemblance to the same text family as the later Rabinnic Masoretic version -and apologists who walk around claiming the 'bible has not changed over time' are either a. unfamiliar with the actual facts of the textual history or b. a liar.

The LXX (Greeek OT 'Seputaginta' and the later Latin Vulgate (of Jerome c. 360 CE) DO NOT MATCH THE WORDS found in the PROTO-MASORETIC CONSONANTAL TEXT and are based on OTHER Hebrew consonantal texts than the protoMasoretic which became standard (i.e. on pre-Javneh council approved versions) & parallels many of the differences found in Aquilla's Greek OT and in Symmachus Greek OT and in Theodotion's Greek OT - a lot of the Vorlagen (Hebrew text underlays) to the later Greek versions (see: Origen's attempt at lining these Greek variations up in his famous now only partially in tact Hexapla) are found in various fragments in the Dead Sea Caves 1-11 (BCE 280 to June of 68 CE during the 1st failed Jewish War against Rome)

If we did not have Caves 1-11 we would not really know how much these Hebrew Consonantal texts actually differed from one another in antiquity.

The copies of the proto-Masoretic text (which eventually became standard in the middle ages for Rabinnic Jews and later for Protestants after Luther) slowly became very solidified after 300 CE.

Before that scribes (who were after all copying these texts BY HAND) made errors and deliberate changes (sometimes it is hard to tell which is the mistake and which is deliberate).

THE FURTHER YOU GO BACK IN TIME, THE MORE FLUID THE TEXT and the MORE DIFFERENT THE TEXTS are from the MASORETIC TEXT.

However priests, rabbis and ministers will NEVER tell you this. This is why this is being DISCUSSED on an ATS Conspiracty Thread.

The SHEEPLE are NOT TOLD THE TRUTH of the TEXTUAL mess of their bible, both OLD & NEW testaments. Anyone who denies this is either a. unfamiliar with the facts b. a liar.

The later the OT hand written text-copy, the more likely the text will match the post-Javneh Hillell II Approved Babylonian Masoretic copies.

Prior to say 200 CE, the text of the Old Testament (and Apocrypha and Pseudipigrapha) was FLUID.

The other older copy (IQ-Is-b) is only about 79% thge same as the consonantal text of the MT used by Rabinnic (non sacrificial) Jews and Protestants today.



posted on Apr, 28 2010 @ 02:50 AM
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reply to post by Sigismundus
 


Yup....you did go to public schools..It doesn't make any difference if you went to school in the UK or here...you get the same fingerprint.

Self Promotion.

It goes like this fingerprint here.


(‘according to ‘John’ whoever he was)
(e.g. the 1st - according to Matthew’ whoever he was)
The SHEEPLE



None of this stuff you quote has anything to do with why the Israelis use the Olde Testament as their guide.

It looks good academically but it does not answer the issue.

But it does make you try to look intelligent and very learned to some out here. I don't think so.

It also shows one other thing. Your faith is in academia..not in Faith.

As to the woman at the well...


'You Samaratim worship in a place where no one knows anything about, but the Judaeans worship in a place (i.e. Jerusalem) where we DO know about, for : "the Salvation [of Israel] is from the Judaeans.'


The passage reads that there was coming a time when they would neither in that mountain or in Jerusalem worship the Father. Thus meaning that it was known where and what the Samaritans worshiped.
But the Samaritans did not know this.

As to salvation being of the Jews...this is referring to Jesus as Salvation...not the Jews themselves. We know this because the worship is not of that mountain or in Jerusalem. Any attempt to rebuild the temple today is a counterfeit ..since worship will not be in Jerusalem.
Which is the point I made earlier about Issac verses Ishmael.

However ..while all this is nice debate points..it does not clarify what or why the IDF uses the Bible as their field manual..their guide.

Which makes your long posts look pretty silly...as it is way over the heads of most of the readers here. You might need this for your ego needs ..but nonetheless it does not make the point about the IDF using it as a guide clear.to the readers. It clouds and confuses it.
It does however ..make your type of academia or public schooling suspect...or at the best self promotion. Which is why I make the point about public education.

It does not put me in my place nor impress me.

Thanks for the long treatise.

Orangetom


[edit on 28-4-2010 by orangetom1999]



posted on Apr, 28 2010 @ 08:57 PM
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Well, Orangetom1999—

You’re going to have to read my posts several times to get the point, it seems – which has been to show you (and anyone else who cares to study this topic) that the OLDEST TEXTS of the Hebrew Hand written ‘sacred’ Scriptures (e.g. the Dead Sea Scroll copies) DO NOT MATCH THE LATER ONES LETTER FOR LETTER (e.g. comparing them with the Masoretic from 960 AD in Leningrad).

Ergo…that Ashkenazi (or anyone else who tries this stunt) cannot FOR ONE MINUTE claim to be holding up a SINGLE SET of sacred writings (whom some call ‘the Old Testament’) that had not been many times over mis-copied, mis-handled, mis-transmitted and mis-translated over time.
Let me break it down a little for you:

If he (or you !) were EVER told (whether by your Mommy or your Sunday school teacher or your Rabbi or your Minister or your Priest or even your best friend !) that the Hebrew (and later Greek) Scriptures were ONE SINGLE collection of the SAME BOOKS that always existed in their PRESENT form, OR the version of those arbitrarily listed books DID NOT change over time, then the person who told you that is either

a. Woefully ignorant of the facts of the actual history of the text transmission (hint: read the Dead Sea Scrolls Bible to get an idea of this mess as existed as late as June of 68 CE)

b. A Liar.

Following Origen’s Hexapla and by careful comparison with the Fragments found since Nov 1946 at Qumran (‘Dead Sea Scrolls’), we see that there existed SIDE BY SIDE in Antiquity AT LEAST (4) separate families of hand copied Hebrew (and Aramaic, & even some Greek)’sacred’ texts –
SOME (but not ALL) of which was later voted into ‘the Bible’ by elders of the various synagogues as the ‘Tanakh’ i.e. ‘the Old Testament’ AFTER Jerusalem was destroyed by Rome in 70 AD –

Meaning that IESOUS DID NOT HAVE A SINGLE BIBLE (i.e. Old Testament, i.e. a set of sacred books) between TWO COVERS, but many, many MORE texts from which he freely quoted as scripture –

And moreover the later followers of this IESOUS being Palestinian Jews of the 1st century CE (before the Old Testament Bible came about as a single book between two covers) also used these MANY EXTRA texts as proofs to assert their own peculiar belief systems.

When we take a look at his quotations from the ‘bible’, we catch a glimpse into the fluidity of the text that existed in his own day i.e. prior to the emergence of the proto Masoretic consonantal version pushed by Hillell on to Rabinnic Judaeism after Jerusalem was destroyed (the main version used today by Rabinnic Jews and Protestants)
We can see e.g. the major differences in wording in the socalled Samaritan Pentateuch dating from around 380 BCE

We can see FIRST HAND the various mangled Dead Sea Scroll text copies (which existed often e.g. the Scroll of the Prophet Isaiah in at least TWO non-matching versions lying side by side IN THE SAME CAVE copied by the same scribes as if they could not say which was the ‘right one’ and which was the ‘wrong one’ !)

We can NOW examine the Hebrew (Vorlag) consonantal text underlays to the later Greek Septuaginta (LXX) versions of Aquilla, Symmachus, Theodotion, etal.

Hint : There exist great differences between the Hebrew Vorlagen (textual Underlays) of the Greek OT-LXX & the MT -- & also between those Vorlagen & the Dead Sea Scroll text copies.

– Moreover ALL FOUR of these DIFFERENT COMPETING text families DO NOT MATCH EACH OTHER UNDER CLOSE SCRUTINY -- by at least 18% if you count consonant by consonant on a Hebrew column of text.

Ergo: THERE IS NO ONE SINGLE AUTHORITATIVE BIBLE to hold up !

THEREFORE (& need I point this out ?):

This Ashkenazi who claims to be holding in his hands a 'sacred' book which holds some semblance of ‘divine authority’ for his sexist, racist, xenophobic, genocidal actions within the IDF is actually holding up a LATE CORRUPT & POLITICALLY MOTIVATED VERSION of ONLY ONE text family FROM MANY of these books that existed in antiquity.

And any person who calls himself a 'Christian' to-day who dares to hold up the same mangled version from many competing text versions of the same books - and believes the same thing is guilty of the same ignorance of the facts - and is living in La La Land.

Not that I WANT to repeat myself or anything...but it seems that some points simply cannot be repeated or stressed enough :

l. the various families of Hebrew texts which pass now for the the Hebrew Scriptures (i.e. those which were VOTED INTO the 'Old Testament' AFTER 90 CE) are derived from hand selected choices from a mangled mess of non matching (and very FLUID) scroll copies prior to AD 70 – that more over were vastly different in Antiquity than they are to-day.

2. You made the specious claim that the Text of the WORD has NOT changed over time – but nothing could be further from the truth - and is clearer than the sun at noon to anyone who is even remotely acquainted with current textual scholarship since the cave discoveries at Qumran in Nov 1946 vis a vis there existed in antiquity heavily corrupted text families that were willy nilly copied SIDE BY SIDE - which we know by studying the Dead Sea Scroll Corpus - Texts that are a full 1000 years older than the later edited and pointed (vowelled) Masoretic Text which iss based on a SINGLE manusript from leningrad from the year 960 CE – and which moreover DIFFERS from the material that is contained and included scrolls/books that the Ashkenazi IDF Israeli does not even know about.

He (like you) THINKS that he has ‘the Bible that always was’ but the facts refute that statement at every turn.

This Ashkenaz simply cannot hold up a modern selection of later codified re-edited texts (even in a modern Hebrew translation !) and claim for a single moment with any sincerity or knowledge to back up his jejeune belief that he is holding the SAME texts as 'Jews' had once held sacred even 1000 years ago.

He (like yourself) by holding up a random & modern Masoretic Text of the 'bible' (derived from a singularly late family of MSS from Babylon and vastly different in content by up to 18 % from earlier and DIFFERENT ones that we now can study having been preserved in the Caves 1-11 time capsules from 68 CE) and claiming he has the WORD of some middle eastern desert clan- god in his hands is either : woefully ignorant of the fact of the actual textual transmission of these traditions in antiquity OR HE IS LYING.



posted on Apr, 30 2010 @ 01:26 AM
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reply to post by Sigismundus
 


Thanks for another long post with lots of details and informations.


Following Origen’s Hexapla and by careful comparison with the Fragments found since Nov 1946 at Qumran (‘Dead Sea Scrolls’), we see that there existed SIDE BY SIDE in Antiquity AT LEAST (4) separate families of hand copied Hebrew (and Aramaic, & even some Greek)’sacred’ texts –


Following Origen....Adamantius Origen?? You are using Origen as a starting point...Classical Greek??? Ok...if you say so.

Then comparing this to Masoretic Hebrew??? Ok...!!

I am not particularly interested in Origen's copy of the Olde Testament , nor the Septuagint, nor the version known as the Codex B.

I do know that the Hebrews had system of spell check by adding up the numbers represented by the letters in the Hebrew Alphabet and they knew how many numbers were in each sentence.
I would say they were pretty well capable of keeping the Olde Testament written down well. They as a people may have deviated in alot of things they were told to do or not do under the law...but they did keep the Word recorded and written down for us. This cannot be said of the Codex B, A, or the Septuagint.

I have little faith in Origen's version by which to compare to others. I don't see Origen as the standard to use. Nor the Dead Sea Scrolls as the standard to use as well. There are things of interest in the Dead Sea scrolls ..no doubt ..but what I need to know is in my AV 1611.
I also dont think what I need to know will be taught in public school ..neither here stateside nor in English Public Schools. Nor do I think it will be taught in a school of Divinity ..either here Stateside nor in the UK. I think the primary purpose of those schools is to Bury the Word.

I did not learn this from Sunday School...nor my mother, Rabbi, nor my Minister. Most ministers around here dont teach this to their flocks at all.
As a matter of fact ..most around here are using the NIV coming from one of those forms from B. F. Wescott and F. J. A. Hort ...who used one of those three forms you mention to translate their version in the 1880s...and most notably from Origen. No thanks.
One item for which it is obvious that Wescott and Hort did not use ..is Masoretic Texts.

I'll stick with the Masoretes.

Hillell ...your using Hillel??? Talmudic Hillel???


This Ashkenazi who claims to be holding in his hands a 'sacred' book which holds some semblance of ‘divine authority’ for his sexist, racist, xenophobic, genocidal actions within the IDF is actually holding up a LATE CORRUPT & POLITICALLY MOTIVATED VERSION of ONLY ONE text family FROM MANY of these books that existed in antiquity.


I'm not particularly impressed with this statement of yours because I know that the Olde Testament Hebrew was Shephardic..not Ashkenazi.
I am also not Pro Israeli. I am also not particularly Pro Muslim nor Pro Palestenian and know that all these groups of peoples are highly politically motivated. I also know that our media and polilticians decieve and lie to us about all these groups.

Let us take a look at this again...

Here by you...


2. You made the specious claim that the Text of the WORD has NOT changed over time – but nothing could be further from the truth - and is clearer than the sun at noon to anyone who is even remotely acquainted with current textual scholarship since the cave discoveries at Qumran in Nov 1946 vis a vis there existed in antiquity heavily corrupted text families that were willy nilly copied SIDE BY SIDE - which we know by studying the Dead Sea Scroll Corpus - Texts that are a full 1000 years older than the later edited and pointed (vowelled) Masoretic Text which iss based on a SINGLE manusript from leningrad from the year 960 CE – and which moreover DIFFERS from the material that is contained and included scrolls/books that the Ashkenazi IDF Israeli does not even know about.


And I said this..


The central theme in the Bible is that God Preserved His Word for us today...and that out of a certain line would come the Messiah.

That is it..in toto.

Not how many battles one has won. For it is obvious that this was a stiff necked and rebellious people and we have this record in the Word as well.


Notice the difference in what I posted and what you posted. When it comes to you ..get back to me. For I know that they were tampering with the God's word even back to Origen's time and before. Even when one of the kings was recorded as burning the Book of the Law on the Brazer.
Even among the Hebrews themselves God preserved His Word.
The technique among scholarship today ...has been to sew questions in and among academia concerning Faith in the Word.
They will devise all kinds of academic short cuts to do this as you have demonstrated.

Thanks,
Orangetom







[edit on 30-4-2010 by orangetom1999]



posted on Apr, 30 2010 @ 03:18 PM
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Well, OrangeTom1999

It sure seems like you REALLY need to get some Greek & Hebrew under your belt if you want to know more about this subject to judge from some your jejeune and ignorant textual assumptions -- as well as careless & cursory understanding of ancient history – including Sitz im Leben which explains how and in what forms these ancient texts have come down to us…

You wrote: ‘Following Origen....Adamantius Origen?? You are using Origen as a starting point...Classical Greek??? Ok...if you say so.”


Do you know anything about Origen's contributions to moden textual scholarship at all? Have you even HEARD of the HEXAPLA?

Well, some background seems to be necessary, my friend. By the end of this discussion your world will have been solidly ROCKED.

Here goes...

After Palestine (including Jerusalem) was leveled by the Roman Army in 70 CE, FOREIGN BORN DIASPORA Rabbis from Babylonia who were untouched by the Roman carnage in Israel (including Hillel II) saw themselves as CHOSEN TO IMPOSE their OWN NON PALESTINIAN RECENSION (version) of the Tanakh (=Old Testament Books minus about 30 books which Palestinian Jews (& the earliest Christians) had long regarded as ‘defiling the hands’ e.g. The Scroll of ben-Sirach, The Scroll of the Book of the Words of Henoch the Son of Jared (quoted as Jewish Scripture in Jude 1:14) or The Scroll of the Book of the Testament of Moses (quoted as Jewish Scripture in Jude 1:17)

Origen was in fact a VERY CAREFUL SCHOLAR LIVING IN PALESTINE who was shocked to see so many versions of the ‘Hebrew Bibile’ still circulating in Greek (based on A DIFFERNET HEBREW CONSONANTAL TEXT than the PROTO MASORETIC of HILLEL-II in so many towns he visited.

So he began to compile a 12-volume book with 6 columns – the Hebrew consonants a few words at a time in the left column, and various Greek versions (Symmachus, Aquilla, Theodotion’s, proto-LXX and others) next to it.

Orgen started this COMPARISON of the VARIANT TEXTS process after he himself was shown actual JARS CONTAINING HEBREW AND GREEK SCROLLS that had been FOUND IN CAVES near Jericho (i.e. the Dead Sea Scrolls) around the YEAR 215 CE--THESE TEXTS were (we now know) part of the TIME CAPSULE Dead Sea Scrolls Caves that were re-discovered in Nov 1946 (Caves 2,3, 5, 6 and 10 –were all rifled before the modern Nov 1946 re-discoveries of the Qumran Caves; another rifling occurred in 790CE when more scrolls found in Jars were discovered – many of these were copied and stored at the Cairo Synagogue Ben Ezra, among the fragments known as the Solomon Schechter Cairo Geniza horde discovered in 1897).

So Origen had ACCESS to the TIME CAPSULE Scrolls of Caves 1-11 which were copied between BCE 280 and 68 CE – the OLDEST TEXTS of the Hebrew Scriptures in the world – which (naturally since they pre-date Hillel II) included EXTRA books that Hillel DID NOT accept as ‘holy’ (e/.g. the Wisdom of Ben Sirach aka Ecclesiasticus, or The Testaments of the 12 Patriarchs, or the Scroll of the Book of the Words of Henoch etc.)

WHY IS THIS IMPORTANT: Well, read on, young man…

The DEAD SEA SCROLL CORPUS of MSS are a TIME-Capsule locked up in Caves 1-11 in June of 68CE during the 2nd year of 1st failed Jewish War Against Rome, which the Jews LOST.

By examining all of this time capsule evidence we can see what the Hebrew sacred Scriptures (i.e. the Hebrew Bible) looked like in 68 CE. It is NOT THE SAME as what the Hebrew sacred Scriptures (i.e. the Hebrew Bible in the MT version) looked like after the Council of Javneh in 90 CE which eventually led to the surviving Rabinninc authorities in the Diaspora to IMPOSE HILLEL-II’s ‘BABYLONIAN’ recension of HIS LIST OF BOOKS and HIS CONSONTAL TEXT OF THOSE BOOKS.

Hillel’s 90CE list of BOOKS is DIFFERENT than the 68CE time capsule documents found at Qumran Caves 1-11 (the Dead Sea Scrolls) – Hillel’s 90CE CONSONANTAL TEXT is ALSO DIFRFERENT than the 68 CE time capsule documents found at Qumran caves 1-11.

Later dead sea scroll discoveries near Wadi Murraba’at were copied AFTER Javneh (c. 136 CE) during the 2nd FAILED Jewish WAR against Rome, when the Roman Emperor Aeolius Adrian destroyed Palestine a 2nd time and expelled ALL Jews from former Israel, making it a Gentile State in 138 CE.

These later text copies ALL fall closely in line with HILLEL’s version – they ARE NOT PART OF THE Caves 1-11 68 CE TIME CAPSULE.

Christians and Jews often claim (ignoring Caves 1-11 !!) that the Wadi Muraba’at fragments of scrolls were part of the older earlier original pre 70 CE Dead Sea Scrolls – they are NOT.

These are LATE copies hand-copied AFTER the older more authentic FLUID texts were locked up and sealed in their Caves / Time Capsules and AFTER the protoMT consonantal text was forced on World Jewry.

The Dead Sea Scrolls Caves 1-11 Time Capsule thus are a unique opportunity to see what the Hebrew Bible ACTUALLY LOOKED LIKE in 68 CE and before---it proves that THE HEBREW CONSONANTAL TEXT WAS FLUID and NOT SET (Jews did NOT start counting ‘middle letters’ until AFTER 138 CE – using ONLY the proto-Masoretic (authorized) version of the text.

So don’t go there.

Your specious arguments about gemmatria can only apply to texts THAT ARE FIXED and the TEXTS did NOT BECOME FIXED until after the 2nd Failed Jewish revolt against Rome in 138 CE (the process of FIXING the TEXT was not STARTED universally for Jews until AFTER Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 CE and began AFTER HILLEL-II in 90 CE at JAVNEH (=Jamnia)demanded a SINGLE AUTHORITATIVE VERSION of the Constonantal Hebrew books he and his Babylonian Cronies held sacred (‘defiled the hands’).

PRIOR TO JAVNEH/ 90 CE, Jews who survived the War of 70 CE:

a. did NOT have a complete set list of sacred books that ‘defiled the hands’ firmly agreed upon except the Torah, and even the Torah existed in several versions (we see Dead Sea Scrolls Torah Scrolls that sometimes follow the protoSeptagint-LXX version, sometimes follow the Samaritan Pentateuch, sometimes follow their own copies, & some that follow the protoMasoretic)

b. did NOT have a SET VERSION of CONSONANTS for those texts (at least 4 versions of the Consontal Texts were circulating by CE 68 side by side, such as the Scroll of the Book of Isaiah, 1QIs-A (the ‘great’ Isaiah scroll which is 91% the same consonantal text as the MT today) and 1QIs-B (the one lying next to it in Cave 1, which is only 81% the same as the MT text, if you count letter/consonant by letter/consonant).

Therefore prior to 90 CE (Council of Javneh) Jews could not universally agree on what the BIBLE for them contained (either the list of books, nor the versioin of those books) and THEREFORE COULD NOT compute cogent GEMMATRIA numerical systems from the text. These Gemmatrial Numerological Systems only work ONCE THE TEXT IS FIXED – it does NOT work when the TEXT is STILL FLUID (i.e. changing slightly with every passing generation of hand written copies)

NOW can you see WHY this mis-informed, mis-guided, mis-anthropic Ashkenazi soldier CANNOT CLAIM that he is holding up A SINGLE SACRED TEXT OF YHWH that was used by his spiritual (even if not physical) ancestors?

The Masoretic vowelled (pointed) Text is ONE OF MANY TEXTS that were circulating in antiquity – FOISTED UPON RABINNIC JEWS in the generations beginning with HILLEL-II AFTER Jerusalem and Palestinian Jews of the 1st century CE were virtually WIPED OFF THE MAP.

THAT is why the Dead Sea Scrolls are SO DANGEROUS for the common herd of believers to know about – not only Christians (both Protestant & Catholic) but also Jews who are taught from infancy that the WORD has NOT changed over time – when in fact it HAD CHANGED in several thousand places in their texts by HAND WRITTEN SCRIBES, who often had an Agenda to push in making the various changes they did – besides making stupid copyists errors which later got re-copied into the texts by later generations !!



posted on May, 1 2010 @ 12:57 PM
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reply to post by Sigismundus
 


I am myself very distrustful of human initiatives and things of which the Humanities declare of importance or significance. Particularly in the fields of higher education...since they are often paid for and financed by the body politic..which is itself in and of a religion


NOW can you see WHY this mis-informed, mis-guided, mis-anthropic Ashkenazi soldier CANNOT CLAIM that he is holding up A SINGLE SACRED TEXT OF YHWH that was used by his spiritual (even if not physical) ancestors?


You should try an olde fashioned out of date belief system called "Faith." Here as in the Faith of Abraham.

And not the teachings of men financed by governments which are usually practicing the surviving variations of the religions of the nations surrounding Ancient Israel. The pagan occult religions..while they are very academic minded ..they are often of little Faith. These are the origins of the Gnostic wise men..religions and the Magi. The religions in which the children of Israel were told not to get involved into...and did.

Also ..you need to understand that I am not under the Bondage of the Law. Not under Ishmael...but In Issac. The Olde Testament is our school master. But we are not a debtor to the Law.

The problem with both the Hebrews and the Muslims today is that both desire to put the world back under Ishmael. Under Levi...when the line of the priesthood is Melchizedek.
They want to boast of Jerusalem. Not the Jerusalem which is above.

All the debate points you so strenuously try to make here are of Ishmael..and not Issac.

A good number of the scrolls in the Qumran caves are Jewish Gody stories.
I have seen this stuff foisted off on an unawares public on the History Channel of all places and had to bite my tongue to keep from busting out laughing.
I have become very dubious about much on the History Channel and now days call it the Hitler Channel.

Nonetheless.. Try some olde fashioned Faith as did our Father Abraham have. For we were told that God would preserve his word. I do not know from whence you decided to go to modern Academia to get your faith..but it is obvious that your faith has been Killed off. I think it is a system designed to kill it off.

Instead Try Faith. The Faith of Abraham.

Thanks,
Orangetom




[edit on 1-5-2010 by orangetom1999]



posted on May, 3 2010 @ 10:38 PM
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Orangetom1999

I'm afraid your answer was non-responsive and very much off topic. I have presented you with some introductory FACTS covering some of the results of textual criticism and study over the past 150 years - conclusions that have been drawn by serious academic scholars in the field well versed in ancient languages, history and archaeology - and have nothing whatsoever to do with towing any government line.

In fact the EXACT OPPOSITE is the case.

In many places (especially Israel and in parts of the US) these incontrovertible facts and pieces of hard evidence is something THEY DO NOT WISH THE COMMON HERD OF HUMANITY to know anything about - but facts are very stubborn things, I'm afraid, that you and all persons of 'faith' (whatever that means) need to learn more about if you are to contribute to anything resembling a fruitful discussion of this very involved & convoluted hand copies textual history subject in general and the shock of the Dead Sea Scrolls time capsule finds in particular (as much of a shock to Origen when HE was shown them as it was to scholars after Nov 1946 when THEY were shown them).

And blind faith in ideas that your mommy taught you as a young child have ZERO to do with any of this.



posted on May, 3 2010 @ 10:49 PM
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Originally posted by JanusFIN

Israeli Army Chief: The Bible Is Our Guide


www.israeltoday.co.il

Israeli army chief Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi firmly stated last week that the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) view the Bible as the number one influence on its conduct and mission.
(visit the link for the full news article)



The Christian bible??!

I don't believe that at all.

They aren't committed to the Christian Bible nor its savior Jesus. Many Israeli scholars even view the stories in the Bible (even the exodus which deals with Jews) as a mere story unsubstantiated by any real archeological evidence. They are shushed by others for fear of removing the Jewish religious claim to the land supported by Christians.

It is more likely they are looking for "Christian support" for their upcoming military campaigns that will be viewed as controversial.

They know American Christians accept the end-times beliefs that pertains to Jews as the chosen people and Israeli as their land.

I don't buy it.

- Lee



posted on May, 3 2010 @ 11:54 PM
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Hi Lee

Rabinnic Jews these days call their own Hebrew scriptures (using the late Masoretic pointed vowelled text version from a SINGLE Manuscript copy from Leningrad dating from 960 CE) 'the bible' -

So an Israeli Jew who holds up the 'bible' is holding up what a Protestant would call the Old Testament (Catholics use the Vulgate translation from the Greek Old Testament LXX versions - which is a differerent set of books with a different consonantal text underlay than the Masoretic Text)

For Rabinnic (non sacrificial, non Temple) Jews today, the 'Christian' New Testament is heresey (i.e. garbage) which 'leads the Benei Yisro'el astray' i.e. following after a false prophet (one of the several epithets they use for 'Iesous, the Greek speaking Rabbi' in the badly translated Greek NT Gospels).

So when a Jew says BIBLE he means the Old Testament, When a Christian says BIBLE he includes BOTH the so-called 'Old' and the 'New' Testaments.

Try to imagine that when you read the story of this mis-informed, mis-guided, jejeune IDF Israeli soldier holding up his warped Masoretic Text from the 10th century thinking he is holding up Holy Writ !!



posted on May, 4 2010 @ 12:03 AM
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Originally posted by Looking_Glass

Originally posted by jonny2410
reply to post by lambs to lions
 


I sort of agree with this. While i don't totally buy the whole Israel is vulnerable thing and i do think partly they are at fault ultimately i do back them. Their government is nuts but the average Israeli is not some bloodthirsty person as some on ATS portray them as.


I agree with this. And we have to remember that Israel is a tiny little country completely surrounded by maniacs that blow themselves up and seek to wipe them off the map...

[edit on 19-4-2010 by Looking_Glass]


Only because they do not have the laser guided munitions and planes to deliver them. Items that cost billions of dollars thoughtfully provided by the idiots who run my country. They also do not have the tanks and bulldozers that the IDF uses to tear down homes, hospitals, roads, schools, etc. So the VICTIMS of Israeli aggression are forced to use the only tools available to them. Suicide bombers and home made toy rockets.



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