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The Problem With Proving UFO/ET's & Government Cover Ups.

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posted on Apr, 18 2010 @ 02:01 PM
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Hello ATS.

I write this because it just came to mind a few minutes ago while reading the Mars Anomaly Thread

Here's the problem with providing any sort of factual, without a doubt, evidence or proof of Et's, UFO's or any other government cover up.

Education.

Most people are NOT educated enough to assess what it is they are seeing in these photos and videos. From frame rate analysis and depth in videos, to being able to spot lens flare and artififacts in pictures. On the cover up front, it requires years of research in a multitude of topics to even understand why certain governments behave the way they do, and why the world stage is set up the way it is.

It's not black and white.

Now when people who ARE educated in these subjects and present factual rebuttals, they are dismissed or ridiculed as government agents and provacateurs. This is the wrong mentality for ATS.

We strive for the truth. We strive to deny ignorance.

When we hold on to our preconcieved notions and reject anything else as hogwash, then we are directly contributing the idiocy and ignorance that exists in our world.

So, please don't contribute to it. Don't bash our resident FSME who have worked for years to gather the knowledge they have and we are priviledge to have them here to educate us when we are so blatantly wrong.

This is not to say you cannot disagree and provide a rebuttal for facts, let's just keep it civil.

~Keeper




posted on Apr, 18 2010 @ 02:40 PM
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I know one thing for sure, we are not alone in this universe, and we have been observed for a very long time. In recent years, the "observing" has increased dramatically. One just needs to see some of the NASA footage for example and realize that there is a lot of activity around the planet.

The problem with directly admitting any involvement and/or knowledge of ET presence on the part of our governments is that they don't even know how to handle the ET presence and the violation of "their" airspace. Also, the deep psychological effects it could bring would be very dangerous for the belief systems that are in place at the moment. Humanity, as a whole, is not ready for this "knowledge", but on the other hand, many of the more informed people are ready.



posted on Apr, 18 2010 @ 02:52 PM
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reply to post by tothetenthpower
 


I respect what you're saying, tothetenthpower, but disagree on some stances.

It is as well as what you say, part of the "boogeyman" and or adulation of "aliens" that misleads people when it comes to these beliefs, not just the overwhelming inability to believe due to a lack of credible "evidence".

I say this because while I am intelligent, I am an "alien-agnostic".

Sorry, to me, when it comes to this there is overwhelming evidence of Governmental fraud.

It began under Nazi Germany with a project towards unleashing the controls of Government restraint, through their Continuity of Government, and I believe those "U.F.O.'s" spotted by the Allies were nothing more than Nazi experiments towards pushing away the restrictions, which lead them to being able to do the atrocities they did, due to having less oversight due to "National Security".

I wrote the thread below, about my beliefs on similar grounds, albeit it was based around America and our Government, not Nazi Germany, but the same context holds true.

Aliens, the Boogeyman, and Creatures That Go Bump In the Night

I personally believe Area 51 is nothing more than a Political Think-Tank for Covert Operations.

And they find their funding through committing fraud, on many levels, just to shake the money-tree, called Congress, up to and including "False-Flag Operations".

I have read many, and I mean many books on these topics, and all of them point not to extra-terrestrial evidence, but complicit, collusive, and criminal actions of Government.

Am I saying it is impossible for "aliens" to exist?

No, I am not, because we as human are arrogant to believe we are the only beings in our Galaxy and Universe, I am however stating I do not believe we have been visited yet.

Except by visitations of fraud, blamed upon beings we cannot see, and they are not hiding in the stars, but in the Pentagon, Area 51, and Washington D.C.

Majestic-12 to me was nothing other than a think-tank for fraud.



Our Central Intelligence Agency learned many dark secrets about those people in power, on our side of the pond, and they blackmailed the rich bastards into giving them money, something they learned from MI-5 during WWII.

Scotland Yard and MI-5 learned to get money, they had to blackmail the Royalty.

Some day, we will manifest a means to terraform Mars, and this is the way we will do it.

Through those blackmailing those in power, through us, the citizens as conduits to our tax-money, by blaming "little green men", and gaining National Security funding.

[edit on 18-4-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]



posted on Apr, 18 2010 @ 02:58 PM
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reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
 


" Alien Agnostic" eh?

That's interesting. Although I'd like you to elaborate. Are you on the fence about the existence of ET life, or whether or not they are actively engaged in operations on or around Earth?

You are intelligent Spartan, although if you don't believe, at least statistically speaking of intelligent life outside our solar system, therer are some things I might need to show you lol.

The odds are pretty good for there being life.

As for the Government and Area 51 among others, I agree. Complete disinfo to keep the public in the dark about advanced technologies and the continued deception and division of people.

Nex to religion and politics the whole UFO subject is another that causes very deep emotions and heated arguments when two people of opposing sides attempt to have a debate about it.

~Keeper



posted on Apr, 18 2010 @ 03:10 PM
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I'm with you on that. Members should be more open minded
and not closing the doors on possible matters of interest
by declaring them to be false without any proof whatsoever.

Ufologists should be given a chance to examine and explain.
Detailed descriptions can be just as good as photos or videos.

The community would benefit from looking deeper into aliens and ufos.

Some may not be ready for these discussions ,
which they can then do well to avoid disrupting.

Because there really are answers to be found in the skies.



posted on Apr, 18 2010 @ 03:12 PM
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Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
 


" Alien Agnostic" eh?


Yes, I am.

And it is interesting, indeed.

Be careful of what you wish for, you might just get it.



Originally posted by tothetenthpower
That's interesting. Although I'd like you to elaborate. Are you on the fence about the existence of ET life, or whether or not they are actively engaged in operations on or around Earth?


A little of both, actually, because I began my life searching for the truth of the matter.

I was six years old, when my stepfather began teaching me how to see, see through propaganda.

The only existence of "aliens" I see is that of those called, "Illegal Aliens".

Yet another useful exploitation upon our often Xenophobic beliefs as a nation and world.


Quote from : Wikipedia : Xenophobia

Xenophobia is a dislike and/or fear of that which is unknown or different from oneself. It comes from the Greek words ξένος (xenos), meaning "stranger," "foreigner" and φόβος (phobos), meaning "fear."

The term is typically used to describe a fear or dislike of foreigners or of people significantly different from oneself, usually in the context of visibly differentiated minorities.



Originally posted by tothetenthpower
You are intelligent Spartan, although if you don't believe, at least statistically speaking of intelligent life outside our solar system, therer are some things I might need to show you lol.

The odds are pretty good for there being life.

As for the Government and Area 51 among others, I agree. Complete disinfo to keep the public in the dark about advanced technologies and the continued deception and division of people.

Nex to religion and politics the whole UFO subject is another that causes very deep emotions and heated arguments when two people of opposing sides attempt to have a debate about it.

~Keeper


You are intelligent as well, Keeper, you're only going to be spinning your wheels on this topic though.

At least in regards with me, because I can debunk anything, and I mean anything you try to present.

I had read many books, done thorough research, and as well I spoke to Stanton Friedman.

I have his phone number, if you would like it, and e-mail address.


I do agree with you though about the odds being there is life out in the Universe.

However, I believe events like Orson Welles broadcast of War of the Worlds only shows evidence I am right.

And you, my friend, are wrong, dead wrong.

But that's okay, I still like you and we're going to be friends, forever, even if you're wrong.


[edit on 18-4-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]



posted on Apr, 18 2010 @ 03:23 PM
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reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
 


You are right, I am sure the Government has used "suposed" knowledge of ET to mess with people for a hundred years.

Although I don't know what you think I am wrong about though, that may have gone over my head.

I must admit I was a giant Xenophobe in my earlier youth into my early twenties, I don't think it applies in this case though.

Are you saying you have a Xenophia of aliens? lol

As far as debunking anything, there isn't anything to debunk IMO. There either is or there isn't, and we simply don't have the tools or the knowledge to truly say for sure.

And you better like me...
.

~Keeper



posted on Apr, 18 2010 @ 03:34 PM
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Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
 


You are right, I am sure the Government has used "suposed" knowledge of ET to mess with people for a hundred years.

Although I don't know what you think I am wrong about though, that may have gone over my head.

I must admit I was a giant Xenophobe in my earlier youth into my early twenties, I don't think it applies in this case though.

Are you saying you have a Xenophia of aliens? lol

As far as debunking anything, there isn't anything to debunk IMO. There either is or there isn't, and we simply don't have the tools or the knowledge to truly say for sure.

And you better like me...
.

~Keeper


Just wish Richard Dolan would visit ATS and get in on this conversation, but he wont.

Stephen Bassett once said "The cover up is "MASSIVE", and he wasn't wrong. The missing BILLIONS, deep black projects etc etc etc.

See my signature......nuff said.



posted on Apr, 18 2010 @ 04:49 PM
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Originally posted by downunderET
Just wish Richard Dolan would visit ATS and get in on this conversation, but he wont.



Here's what Richard Dolan had to say about U.S. Government secrecy and the compartmentalization of information:




I have used the term "national security state" to describe its structures of power. It is a convenient way to express the military and intelligence communities, as well as the worlds that feed upon them, such as defense contractors and other underground, nebulous entities. Its fundamental traits are secrecy, wealth, independence, power, and duplicity.



1. Secrecy.

Nearly everything of significance undertaken by America's military and intelligence community in the past half-century has occurred in secrecy. The undertaking to build an atomic weapon, better known as the Manhattan Project, remains the great model for all subsequent activities. For four years not a single member of Congress even knew about it, although its final cost exceeded the then-incredible total of $2 billion. During and after the Second World War, other important projects, such as the development of biological weapons, the importation of Nazi scientists, terminal mind control experiments, nationwide interception of mail and cable transmissions of an unwitting populace, infiltration of the media and universities, secret coups, secret wars, and assassinations all took place far removed not only from the American public, but most members of Congress and a few Presidents. Indeed, several of the most powerful intelligence agencies were themselves established in secrecy, unknown by the public or Congress for many years.



2. Wealth.

Since the 1940s, the U.S. Defense and Intelligence establishment has had more money at its disposal than most nations. In addition to official dollars, much of the money is undocumented. From its beginning, the CIA was engaged in a variety of off-the-record "business" activities that generated large sums of cash. The connections of the CIA with global organized crime (and thus de facto with the international narcotics trade) has been well-established and documented for many years. [6] In addition, the CIA maintained its own private airline fleet which generated a tidy sum of unvouchered funds primarily out of Asia. Finally, much of the original money to run the American intelligence community came from very wealthy and established American families, who have long maintained an interest in funding national security operations important to their interests.



3. Independence.

In theory, civilian oversight exists over the U.S. national security establishment. The President is the military Commander-in-Chief. Congress has official oversight over the CIA. The FBI must answer to the Justice Department. In practice, little of this fond theory applied during the period under review. One reason has to do with the secrecy: the compartmentalization of information within military and intelligence circles. "Top Secret" clearance does not clear one for all Top Secret information. Sensitive information is available on a need to know basis. Two CIA officers in adjoining rooms at the Langley Headquarters can be involved in completely different top secret activities, each completely ignorant of the other's doings. Such compartmentalization not only increases secrecy, but independence from the wrong (e.g. official) kinds of oversight.



4. Power.

Secrecy, wealth, and independence add up to power. Through the years, the national security state has gained access to the world's most sophisticated technology, sealed off millions of acres of land from public access or scrutiny, acquired unlimited snooping ability within U.S. borders and beyond, conducted overt or clandestine actions against other nations, and prosecuted wars without serious media scrutiny. Domestically, it maintains influence over elected officials and communities hoping for some of the billions of defense dollars.



5. Duplicity.

Deception is a key element of warfare, and when winning is all that matters, the conventional morality held by ordinary people becomes an impediment. The examples of public deception by national security elements are too many to summarize here, but are provided in the ensuing chapters.



The UFO cover-up (precisely the right phrase) is one secret among many within the American national security state. Like other areas within its domain, the UFO problem has been handled secretly, with great deception, and significant resources. The secrecy stems from a pervasive and fundamental element of life in our world: that those who are at the top of the heap will always take whatever steps necessary to maintain the status quo.

UFOs and the National Security State: An Unclassified History Volume One: 1941 to 1973


Cheers.



posted on Apr, 18 2010 @ 05:17 PM
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Originally posted by karl 12

Originally posted by downunderET
Just wish Richard Dolan would visit ATS and get in on this conversation, but he wont.



Here's what Richard Dolan had to say about U.S. Government secrecy and the compartmentalization of information:




I have used the term "national security state" to describe its structures of power. It is a convenient way to express the military and intelligence communities, as well as the worlds that feed upon them, such as defense contractors and other underground, nebulous entities. Its fundamental traits are secrecy, wealth, independence, power, and duplicity.



1. Secrecy.

Nearly everything of significance undertaken by America's military and intelligence community in the past half-century has occurred in secrecy. The undertaking to build an atomic weapon, better known as the Manhattan Project, remains the great model for all subsequent activities. For four years not a single member of Congress even knew about it, although its final cost exceeded the then-incredible total of $2 billion. During and after the Second World War, other important projects, such as the development of biological weapons, the importation of Nazi scientists, terminal mind control experiments, nationwide interception of mail and cable transmissions of an unwitting populace, infiltration of the media and universities, secret coups, secret wars, and assassinations all took place far removed not only from the American public, but most members of Congress and a few Presidents. Indeed, several of the most powerful intelligence agencies were themselves established in secrecy, unknown by the public or Congress for many years.



2. Wealth.

Since the 1940s, the U.S. Defense and Intelligence establishment has had more money at its disposal than most nations. In addition to official dollars, much of the money is undocumented. From its beginning, the CIA was engaged in a variety of off-the-record "business" activities that generated large sums of cash. The connections of the CIA with global organized crime (and thus de facto with the international narcotics trade) has been well-established and documented for many years. [6] In addition, the CIA maintained its own private airline fleet which generated a tidy sum of unvouchered funds primarily out of Asia. Finally, much of the original money to run the American intelligence community came from very wealthy and established American families, who have long maintained an interest in funding national security operations important to their interests.



3. Independence.

In theory, civilian oversight exists over the U.S. national security establishment. The President is the military Commander-in-Chief. Congress has official oversight over the CIA. The FBI must answer to the Justice Department. In practice, little of this fond theory applied during the period under review. One reason has to do with the secrecy: the compartmentalization of information within military and intelligence circles. "Top Secret" clearance does not clear one for all Top Secret information. Sensitive information is available on a need to know basis. Two CIA officers in adjoining rooms at the Langley Headquarters can be involved in completely different top secret activities, each completely ignorant of the other's doings. Such compartmentalization not only increases secrecy, but independence from the wrong (e.g. official) kinds of oversight.



4. Power.

Secrecy, wealth, and independence add up to power. Through the years, the national security state has gained access to the world's most sophisticated technology, sealed off millions of acres of land from public access or scrutiny, acquired unlimited snooping ability within U.S. borders and beyond, conducted overt or clandestine actions against other nations, and prosecuted wars without serious media scrutiny. Domestically, it maintains influence over elected officials and communities hoping for some of the billions of defense dollars.



5. Duplicity.

Deception is a key element of warfare, and when winning is all that matters, the conventional morality held by ordinary people becomes an impediment. The examples of public deception by national security elements are too many to summarize here, but are provided in the ensuing chapters.



The UFO cover-up (precisely the right phrase) is one secret among many within the American national security state. Like other areas within its domain, the UFO problem has been handled secretly, with great deception, and significant resources. The secrecy stems from a pervasive and fundamental element of life in our world: that those who are at the top of the heap will always take whatever steps necessary to maintain the status quo.

UFOs and the National Security State: An Unclassified History Volume One: 1941 to 1973


Cheers.


Seems like you and I were seperated at birth.

Dolan tells it like it is and has "hinted' that he knows a lot more from insiders and whistleblowers who "HAVEN'T" come out yet.

He's such a respected researcher, that I think that a lot of the "insiders" in the Military Industrial Complex are willing to feed him material that they know he will not devulge.

I eagerally await his Vol 3 in his book trilogy, it will be a REAL BELL RINGER.

See my signature below, nuff said.



posted on Apr, 18 2010 @ 06:06 PM
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Education? Yes sure, but power is all the government has, and hes goin to always have that, he can do whatever he wants to and get away with it,and we (citizens) cant do nothing about, if the government came out and say aliens dont exist, majority of the pulbic will believe him.


[edit on 18-4-2010 by sam_inc]



posted on Apr, 18 2010 @ 09:53 PM
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Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
 


You are right, I am sure the Government has used "suposed" knowledge of ET to mess with people for a hundred years.

Although I don't know what you think I am wrong about though, that may have gone over my head.

I must admit I was a giant Xenophobe in my earlier youth into my early twenties, I don't think it applies in this case though.

Are you saying you have a Xenophia of aliens? lol

As far as debunking anything, there isn't anything to debunk IMO. There either is or there isn't, and we simply don't have the tools or the knowledge to truly say for sure.

And you better like me...
.

~Keeper


No, quite the opposite, actually, I have no fear of anything.

We do have the tools to decipher anything, it is whether they are applied correctly, or not.

And as well, whether those in power want us to apply them, and or apply them correctly.

They want us to fear the unknown, it is a part of the master-plan, and needless fear can cause panic.

I suggest you read this book and as well any of the books I reference within this thread.

All open-source intelligence, all either de-classified, and or more towards the cover-up aspect.

The Science of Fear: Why We Fear the Things We Shouldn't--and Put Ourselves in Greater Danger




Amazon Review :

Gardner, a columnist and senior writer for the Ottawa Citizen, is both matter-of-fact and entertaining in this look at fear and how it shapes our lives.

Although we are capable of reason, says Gardner, we often rely instead on intuitive snap judgments.

We also assume instinctively, but incorrectly, that if examples of something can be recalled easily, that thing must be common.

And what is more memorable than headlines and news programs blaring horrible crimes and diseases, plane crashes and terrorist attacks?

In fact, such events are rare, but their media omnipresence activates a gut-level fear response that is out of proportion to the likelihood of our going through such an event.

It doesn't help that scientific data and statistics are often misunderstood and misused and that our risk assessment is influenced less by the facts than by how others respond.

Gardner's vivid, direct style, backed up by clear examples and solid data from science and psychology, brings a breath of fresh air and common sense to an emotional topic.

(June)

Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc.

All rights reserved.



Originally posted by downunderET
Just wish Richard Dolan would visit ATS and get in on this conversation, but he wont.

Stephen Bassett once said "The cover up is "MASSIVE", and he wasn't wrong. The missing BILLIONS, deep black projects etc etc etc.

See my signature......nuff said.


Which is exactly what I've concentrated upon my whole life.

It is the cover-up's and cover stories which are more important.

Personally, if "alien's" exist, great, if they do not exist, great.

You can decipher those rather easily, if you know how Government works.

And I do.

The Military Industrial Complex will do anything, and I mean anything, to keep itself functioning, including, but not limited to fraud, in order to keep funding flowing, this has been proven by many die-hard "conspiracy theorists".

Eisenhower - Military/Industrial Complex - Part 1 of 2


Eisenhower - Military/Industrial Complex - Part 2 of 2


 


Here are a few books I've read on the topics I have spoken about how the Government works, in regards to "aliens" and the cover-up process.

The Day After Roswell




Amazon Review :

If you've ever wondered what crashed into the desert near Roswell, New Mexico, in 1947, this book will give you some startling answers.

While the first version was published in hardcover in 1997, Corso provides new evidence for the presence of alien intruders in this pocket paperback edition.

Whether or not you believe his contention, the sheer weight of governmental sources and documentation presented by the former Army intelligence officer is not easily dismissed.

Once you understand the historical context (in the midst of the Cold War soon after World War II, with Orson Welles having recently inspired panic in citizens with his fictional War of the Worlds radio broadcast), the military deciding to cover up a real-life alien ship becomes more credible.

Corso also gives a convincing explanation of why reports were so multi-various and conflicting.

Even if you believe the book is utter fiction, it's still a compelling read.

--Randall Cohan


Top Secret/Majic




Library Journal : Amazon Review :

Friedman, a nuclear physicist and noted "UFOlogist" (Crash at Corona:

The Definitive Study of the Roswell Incident, Marlowe, 1994), examines the documentary evidence for the existence of a clandestine government group called "Majestic-12" (sometimes shortened to "MJ-12" or "Majic"), supposedly formed in 1947 to deal with the remains of a crashed flying saucer near Roswell, New Mexico.

The U.S. government has consistently denied there ever was such an incident or group.

Friedman attempts to authenticate purported MJ-12 documents that mysteriously appeared in 1984 and 1994.

He also refutes arguments by debunkers such as Carl Sagan and Phillip Klass and criticizes the findings in Kevin D. Randle and Donald R. Schmitt's recent The Truth About the UFO Crash in Roswell (LJ 6/1/94).

Included here for the first time is part of a 1984 "Special Operations Manual" for the recovery and disposal of extraterrestrial entities and technology.

If authenticated, it would lend credence to Friedman's belief in a governmental cover-up he terms a "cosmic Watergate."

While this book is speculative to some degree, Friedman operates mostly as a scientist, carefully weighing all evidence before coming to a conclusion. Recommended for public and academic libraries.?

Gary D. Barber, SUNY at Fredonia Lib.

Copyright 1996 Reed Business Information, Inc.


Blank Check : The Pentagon's Black Budget




Library Journal : Amazon Review :

In this book based on his Pulitzer Prize-winning series of articles for the Philadelphia Inquirer, journalist Weiner probes the way the Pentagon has used secret budgets to fund huge military programs.

This has grown to the point that there are now more than 100 multimillion- and multibillion-dollar weapons systems, many of them nuclear weapons designed to fight and win World Wars III and IV, built without the awareness of the public or even the Congress.

Weiner takes a close look at programs such as the Stealth bomber and provides fascinating detail from Congressional testimony.

The thesis of the book--that secrecy in government military programs is antithetical to democracy--is well documented and hugely important.

As the Cold War draws to a close and military budgets come under attack, the public and Congress may tend to forget the defense establishment's inclination toward secrecy and self-perpetuation.

Weiner's book serves as a timely reminder that this would be unwise.

Highly recommended.

- Jennifer Scarlott, World Policy Inst., New York Copyright 1990 Reed Business Information, Inc.


[edit on 18-4-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]




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