Judge backs Redding atheist who balked at religious anti-drug program

Judge backs Redding atheist who balked at religious anti-drug program Read more: www.sacbee.com...

www.sacbee.com

Barry A. Hazle Jr. served a year in prison on a drug charge. After he got out, his parole agent sent him back for being an atheist.

Now, the 41-year-old Redding computer technician has won a ruling from a Sacramento federal judge against the state and stands to collect damages for having his constitutional rights violated.

(visit the link for the full news article)



[edit on 18-4-2010 by traditionaldrummer]

With an alleged 5% success rate I find it curious that the variety of 12-step programs are still in existence. Even more disturbing is that judges have the legal authority to force people to attend such ineffective programs. Nobody should be forced to attend any program which includes all of the components of religious conversion (but without pushing any particular religion). The few people I've known that attended AA because of serious drinking problems and had success at abstaining from alcohol also ended up "finding god" and then displayed obsessive cult-like behavior by constantly intruding into the lives of other members. Also, most of their time and money went back into the Alcohol Cult since they were convinced that they had an incurable "disease" that only their god could save them from. Getting over the drinking problem was good. Replacing it with cult zealotry was an unfair trade.

It's good to see a judge recognizing the rights of an individual wishing to take a different route,

www.sacbee.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Nothing quite like a dry drunk for Jesus. Sadly, I'd rather my friends had continued sloshing drinks all over me than begin to swing a Bible at my forehead.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


This is a very interesting article and a scenario that I had never considered as a possibility in the world.

I was once engaged to a man that was involved in a 12 step program who would tape messages all over the place that were God inspired to keep him from his old habits. I decided not to marry the guy because he was not willing to admit that the decision of whether or not to drink actually was his decision and not one that God would make for him.

I particularly found the point you made about a 5% success rate of interest, because it confirms to me that people won't stop drinking or drugging until they are ready to, and that they need to find it within themselves to do so, and not from a "higher power." It really has nothing to do with religion when a person decides to quit.

I hope you follow along with this case and keep us updated. It should be interesting to see what kind of compensation this fellow receives for having been returned to jail.

Originally posted by Blanca Rose
people won't stop drinking or drugging until they are ready to, and that they need to find it within themselves to do so, and not from a "higher power."

That's one of the major problems I have with 12 step programs also. Very little credit to the self for abstinence. Also the notion that whatever habit you're there for is a "disease" that you are infinitely "recovering" from. This is a kind of cult mentality.

This is an interesting ruling.

I have known people in AA. Some successful, some not. I do not believe that the success rate is 5%. I suspect that is data manipulation. For example, 1 person may relapse a dozen times throughout their life, even if just for 1 drink. If you count each new "attempt" after the relapse, there may be something like a 5% success rate. However, i would bet that if you measure the % of people that find success with the program to be much, much higher.

The question you have to ask yourself is if it is just substituting one habit for another. Religion is like a drug to people. It represents a release of responsibility. You drink to forget your troubles. A person can worship their Gods for the same reasons. The poster above who said he would rather have beer sloshed over him rather than a bible swung at him is spot on: it is a substitution.

So, we have to ask ourselves if this is acceptable. I am unsure.

I have known people who have gone to prison. While they are there, they generally tend to become hyperreligious (or join up with a gang). They plan on becoming ministers, or some other such nonsense. But when they get out, invariably, it is right back to the same stupid behaviors that were causative of incarceration in the first place. I believe that, in this case, it is a good thing (even if pathetic). If you can substitute God for the Aryan Brotherhood, it is always a good thing.

The use of God among the criminals in America is something i have very mixed feelings on. Anything that prompts you to submit to another party is not a belief system that will push you to be the best you can be.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
This is an interesting ruling.

I have known people in AA. Some successful, some not. I do not believe that the success rate is 5%. I suspect that is data manipulation.

Agreed about the 5%, which is why I qualified the claim with the word "alleged". I'm not sure about the actual success rate, but in my experience, most of the people I knew that entered a 12 step program ended up "failing" and ultimately returning to their previous behavior.

At any rate I do believe that even incarcerated criminals have a right to state-ordered rehabilitation programs that are free of religious components. An atheist subjected to a 12 step program will have an inherent disdain for the process which may guarantee failure. I don't expect the state to be efficient, but why continue to waste resources on those who would receive greater benefit from a program with a different structure?

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


I manage people for a living. I have done it for a long time, and have had thousands upon thousands of people work for me. One thing i have discovered is that you motivate them by their own success. People enjoy doing what they are good at, and are motivated to improve. I would suspect that recovery programs would want to affect this trait more. It is how you change the mindset into something more natural and logical.

religion works for some...but not all.

I can't believe people on here would actually say: I'd rather have drinks spilled all over me than see a Bible!

How weak are you? Can it be that someone can not talk about religion without you worrying about following suit? Do you not have the power to say, "Thanks, but no thanks?"

If someone with a terrible drinking problem, the same person that is more likely to get behind a wheel and kill me and my kids, needs "notes from God" strewn around in order to prevent him/her from getting behind that wheel -- then so be it.

Here's a monumental problem you forgot to address:

People in AA are more likely to become over-zealous in their quest for God, and become more "cult-like", not because of religion, AA, or God. But because they already have a problem with moderation!!!!

You are looking at a group of people, with a disease, that has no self-control, no will power, and can not drink unless it is constant and in excess -- -and you wonder why these people then take religion too far?

Again, I am not a fan of cults. But members in AA that actually become cult members -- the true form, not just finding God -- are few and far between.

Come at me with a Bible over a drink driver any day of the week! The former I can survive easily enough, the latter is not in my control.

I used to work with someone who was an overzealous NA-er. It was interesting to note that, though he was clean and sober for 4 years, he replaced his addiction to drugs with addictions to sex and gambling. An addiction is an addictions, its just how you control compulsive behavior that counts.

Originally posted by lpowell0627

You are looking at a group of people, with a disease, that has no self-control, no will power

Is a lack of self-control and a lack of willpower actually a disease? I'm not 100% certain that poor behavior is technically a disease.

I'll agree though that if someone can't find success any other way than by utilizing their god, then so be it. The problem for me arises with state-mandated participation in religious-themed programs, particularly when involving people who have no interest in religion.

Originally posted by lpowell0627
I can't believe people on here would actually say: I'd rather have drinks spilled all over me than see a Bible!

hmmm.....

Originally posted by 23refugee
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

Nothing quite like a dry drunk for Jesus. Sadly, I'd rather my friends had continued sloshing drinks all over me than begin to swing a Bible at my forehead.

No wonder you can't believe it. It's because it isn't true. You changed the wording significantly enough to feign offense.

Originally posted by lpowell0627
Come at me with a Bible over a drink driver any day of the week! The former I can survive easily enough, the latter is not in my control.

And out comes the strawman.

No one mentioned drunk drivers. Consuming alchohol and driving are not the same thing.

[edit on 18-4-2010 by bigfatfurrytexan]

Originally posted by lpowell0627


If someone with a terrible drinking problem, the same person that is more likely to get behind a wheel and kill me and my kids, needs "notes from God" strewn around in order to prevent him/her from getting behind that wheel -- then so be it.

Not everyone with a drinking or drug problem will get behind the wheel of a car. The person I was engaged to never did, so, there goes your theory. Also the notes were not instructions from God telling him what to do or not to do, they were prayers about strength and encouragement. I will say that I am of the opinion that even if God stood right before a drunk person with the intention of driving, they would still do it anyway!

Here's a monumental problem you forgot to address:

People in AA are more likely to become over-zealous in their quest for God, and become more "cult-like", not because of religion, AA, or God. But because they already have a problem with moderation!!!!

You are looking at a group of people, with a disease, that has no self-control, no will power, and can not drink unless it is constant and in excess -- -and you wonder why these people then take religion too far?

You are assuming that everyone with a drinking problem is a sloppy drunk with no self control. A lot of people have a couple of drinks every day after work for instance. They don't get to the point of being incoherent. The ones that visit happy hour for a couple are more likely to get behind the wheel and kill you or your kids than a sloppy drunk who can't even find their car keys. So, a person who tosses back only a few thinking they are in control are just as bad as a typical alcholic. In other words, some alcholics are in control, and have the will power to stop after a few. They are referred to as functioning alcoholics.

Again, I am not a fan of cults. But members in AA that actually become cult members -- the true form, not just finding God -- are few and far between.

Have you ever been to an AA meeting, or an Alanon meeting? It's stressed from the get go to find relief outside of yourself to control addictions, and you are told that you won't find success without it, a higher power. It's rammed down your throat so to speak. Finding God is one thing, being brainwashed into needing it is another.

Come at me with a Bible over a drink driver any day of the week! The former I can survive easily enough, the latter is not in my control.

Speaking of which, lot's of priests are alcholics, so you might get a bible and a drink. Be careful what you wish for.

Couldn't agree more with AA as being what i would describe as a religious cult.
The religious aspect of the program is, i am sure bound to prevent a lot of alcoholics to address the problem voluntarily.

The fact that courts order that people attend these programs is, disgusting.
If the program was actually designed to assist people recover from addiction and not based on religion it may actually be effective.

I personally do not agree one bit that alcoholism is a disease.
cancer is a disease.
Alcoholism is a habit.

Originally posted by mumma in pyjamas

Couldn't agree more with AA as being what i would describe as a religious cult.
The religious aspect of the program is, i am sure bound to prevent a lot of alcoholics to address the problem voluntarily.

The fact that courts order that people attend these programs is, disgusting.
If the program was actually designed to assist people recover from addiction and not based on religion it may actually be effective.

I personally do not agree one bit that alcoholism is a disease.
cancer is a disease.
Alcoholism is a habit.

Well perhaps the issue isn't having a program that is not biased on religious beliefs as many people prefer programs that are. Maybe instead of revising an alternative program could be put in place. Perhaps people could choose to opt out of the religious program if they feel it doesn't fit their needs.

That would be more of a compromise IMO. It's certainly better than tearing down walls.

I agree with you that Alcoholism is just a habit, but severe addiction (to anything) is not good. People should still be able to get help.

Then again I would be labeled a "Functional Alcoholic" by these standards so perhaps I am wrong.

[edit on 11-5-2010 by DaMod]

reply to post by DaMod


Agreed

As i originally stated it probably prevents a lot of people from getting help who do not wish to be exposed to religion.
I am not proposing we take AA away from those who want to attend but if the COURT is going to force people to attend an Alcohol addiction support group there needs to be a non religious version.

Imagine if to get an education you had to attend a religious school, it would be insanity!

I had to attend NA or AA meetings as part of my outpatient treatment for my addiction to pain pills and xanax. I personally hated it and just felt dirty sitting in the room with many of these people. To me the claim that addiction is a disease is nothing but a cop out. A way to release a person from being responsible for their actions. Please don't get me started on the "once an addict, always an addict" thing! There are alternatives to the 12-step programs, I found the program of "rational recovery" actually helped me much more than the others. And for the most part your nomenclature is wrong, while many become "bible thumpers" the correct term is "big book thumpers"
But in the end actually being ready to stop and having a new born son were what prompted me to stop using. The realization that I didn't want to be a functional addict, that I wanted to be fully present for my son was enough for me.

Originally posted by azrael36
Please don't get me started on the "once an addict, always an addict" thing!

Nonsense like that is designed to keep you in their program forever. Nothing is more insidious than attributing your own success in abstinence to a "higher power", and then claiming then that you are never cured from the "disease" of the temporary habits you learned to quell.

reply to post by mumma in pyjamas


Actually, I went to Catholic school. Then I went to a Public High School.

I was two years ahead of my peers. It gave me a serious advantage in High School. That's the glory of a non-government controlled curriculum.

Actually, many of the kids I went to school with weren't Catholic. Their parents just opted for Catholic school because it offered a better education to their kids.

So judging by that experience, if everyone had to go to a "religious" school, then they would probably get a more advanced, disciplined, and an overall better quality education.

What does that say about our Public School system?

[edit on 11-5-2010 by DaMod]

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


I think most people go for the coffee, friendship and a place for drama. It is a lot like church! Keep in mind, I say this having been around the AA and NA crowd for years. I had a therapist tell me to go for my guilty pleasure of smoking weed when I did, can't afford to do so now. Luckily, I never found it so good that I should sell my body