Illinois Mayor Expresses Doubt About Obama's Citizenship

reply to post by MaxBlack




He will be out of office either on January 20, 2013, or January 20, 2017. After that, we will have a new POTUS.

Every single POTUS someone says, "He is going to declare himself dictator for LIFE!!!" It never happens.

[edit on 4/18/2010 by whatukno]

reply to post by K J Gunderson

In Common Law, impression on wax or other substance capable of being impressed. The purpose of a seal is to attest to the execution of an Instrument. The word seal and the letters L.S. (locus sigilli, place of the seal) have the same significance and today are commonly used for the same purpose.

www.answers.com...

I thought I had made that clear, but then again I was attributing to you more respect than you seemingly deserved.

The use of seals began at a time when writing was not common, but when every person of means possessed a coat-of-arms or other distinctive device. Great significance was attached to the use of seals as a means of distinguishing persons. With the spread of education, the signature on an instrument became more important than the seal, and seals lost their former dignity and importance.

Given that an infant at birth can not be expected to sign their own birth certificate, failing that, a seal becomes the next best solution in establishing some legitimacy regarding that birth.

Why can you not answer that? Why are you pretending it is not there?

I have now answered your question twice. I make no pretense about it. I continue to suggest that if you truly want to know a way to have this issue settled, then release the sealed document to those who request it. It is that simple. I told you that had I such a document in my hand I would be inclined to defend Obama rather than defend those questioning his legitimacy. Even so, you ignore this and pretend I have said what I did not say, and I never said what I did say.

You are taking all of this time to respond to me and yet none of it addresses the HUGE FLAWS IN YOUR IDEA.

What idea of mine are you referring to? I am not one who is questioning Obama's legitimacy, I am merely a reader who entered this thread to read more of what is said about the issue, and upon reading certain posts attacking the question, I felt compelled to reply. Call that "trolling" if you like, I call it an interest in learning more.

I make no such arguments one way or the other about Obama's actual legitimacy of Presidency. I will question spurious claims made by those who defend his legitimacy with no real evidence to support such claims. When I entered this thread, I merely responded to two posters who I believed were offering fallacious arguments made against the concerns of citizens who would like this issue settled. I understandably questioned their fallacies, never making any assertions as to Obama's legitimacy myself. But don't let the facts get in the way of your baseless charges of trolling, just make the charges. This is, after all, what you believe is happening in regards to Obama's birth issue, right/

I get it, you realize how stupid and weak your whole thing about sending a copy to everyone is and refuse to defend it now.

I see no weakness in my argument at all and continue to insist that this is what must happen if this issue is to be brought to rest. Even so, you will pretend I have backed off of this argument. Why? I can only guess, but that guess lies in you accusing me of your crimes.

Fine. My post is there for you to respond to but you would rather do this. Obviously that is your way of saying "You got me on my whole rant and every idea I expressed so let me move on to the next thing you said nad just pretend it did not happen.

You can put words in my mouth all you want, the intelligent reader will have no problem seeing through your wishful thinking and own reliance on distraction.

The funny thing is, I am all kinds of ready to respond to these nonsense posts as well but I refuse to just let you duck a real question like that.

What ever you might be "ready" for or not, what is evident is that you are not at all prepared to debate the issue in a reasonable manner and must rely upon words such as "troll" to bolster your arguments.

Either you have something to really say and it can stand up to questioning or you are just a troll spouting off things. I guess if you respond one more time while still refusing to actually answer the questions about your farce, we will have our answer wont we.

My point exactly! So, now then, what is it that you are arguing?

Your idea is nonsense and cannot stand up to even the most basic of questions you pretend they were not asked and move along. That is as sad as it gets around here.

My idea is simply this: The POTUS has been accused of failing to comply with Constitutional standards in order to hold such office and if these accusations are baseless, then a simple submission to court scrutiny so that all he purports to serve may be at ease with this issue may be put to rest. Will Obama do such a thing? Just like many POTUS before him, including Nixon, Bush I and II, and Clinton, this man seems to want to argue that he is not at all beholden to the people he works for. Failing that, Hawaii opening up requests for all who inquire to verify such a thing for themselves would go along way in settling this issue. Yet, even so, you make your pointless claims, which amount to nothing more than ad hom attacks on me, and have nothing to do with the questions I bring up.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


No, you have not even answered my question once. I have to assume you are still refusing to read it.

Explain to me this

-if they send a copy to everyone in the US and every copy has that seal on it, what good is that seal again?

-what is to stop them from just printing up BC, sealing them, and mailing THOSE out?

-just explain how your plan to have a copy sent to everyone remains faithful to the proof that seal implies.

If they are going to seal the one they send you, then they are obviously willing to just seal anything they want you to see with a seal so again I will ask...

HOW DOES YOUR PLAN GET AROUND THIS?

reply to post by K J Gunderson


You are wasting my time and if you can't accept the answer I have given you that is your problem. People are not stupid and can read these posts for themselves, and will know I did answer your questions, you just simply refused to accept those as answers.

You took a poster who had little investment in the issue, certainly not the creator of this thread, and chose to take up argument with him, and what have you proved? Have you managed to settle the issue? Try taking a lesson from the most admirable and esteemed member Whatuknow, who instead of playing such stupid games simply did his best to settle the issue. There is a man worth admiring and if one has to have an opponent, that man is a worthy one. You sir, are wasting my time.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Now, I want to ask you something.

Do you understand Prima Facie law?

According to the COLB, it is Prima Facie evidence that Obama was born where he claims, in Hawai'i.

Is there any real proof he was born anywhere else that could be used in a court of law to refute the prima facie evidence held in the COLB that everyone has seen online?

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

Now, I want to ask you something.

Do you understand Prima Facie law?

According to the COLB, it is Prima Facie evidence that Obama was born where he claims, in Hawai'i.

Is there any real proof he was born anywhere else that could be used in a court of law to refute the prima facie evidence held in the COLB that everyone has seen online?

Prima facie means quite literally at first sight. What it means is evidence on the face of an of issue. Pictures on the internet are not Prima Facie evidence, but merely pictures on the internet. If I had a copy of his birth certificate in my hand, that would be Prima Facie evidence, and for the third time now, I state; if I had such evidence, I would be inclined to defend Obama rather than those asking the questions. Failing possession of the birth certificate myself, a court order demanding such proof and then ruling the matter settled would go a long way in settling this issue. I do not expect Hawii to comply with all the inundations they have been bombarded with, I expect Obama to simply put the matter to rest by submitting to a court order and showing on record his legitimacy, instead of relying upon second rate debaters, (not at all a reference at you my brother), to make his case for him.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

You are wasting my time and if you can't accept the answer I have given you that is your problem.

So the answer is no, you have not thought this through and do no actually have an answer for the first very simple question your premise brings us to. Gotcha. I did not think you knew what you were talking about but it just feels better to have you admit it.

People are not stupid and can read these posts for themselves, and will know I did answer your questions, you just simply refused to accept those as answers.

Yeah, feel free to post a link to that answer anytime. I will busy over here counting all the stars your fabulous "answers" are garnering from all the intelligent people here that can read these posts.

You took a poster who had little investment in the issue, certainly not the creator of this thread, and chose to take up argument with him, and what have you proved?

I chose someone who said something I felt was incredibly stupid and tried to see if they could make it make sense in any real way. Not fault if that was you.

Have you managed to settle the issue?

The issue has been settled for me for quite some time now. You are the one with the issue. You even pretend to have a solution. I was just trying to find the logic in your solution. Perhaps if it had some, it might help you settle your issue. See what I get for trying to help.

Try taking a lesson from the most admirable and esteemed member Whatuknow, who instead of playing such stupid games simply did his best to settle the issue.

How did that work out for him? Did you concede? Are you in agreement? Believe me, I greatly appreciate a great many posts by that poster. The thing is, he already made them so making them myself would seem silly, wouldn't it?

There is a man worth admiring and if one has to have an opponent, that man is a worthy one. You sir, are wasting my time.

You pretend to give accolades to someone that you still think is either lying or stupid. How does that work?

I noticed that anyone directly challenging the lack of logic in the statements that you make are a waste of time for you. Ranting and tossing out paragraphs full of a periphery of talking point bs is not answering a question no matter how many words you pack into a post. Perhaps you need to take a lesson from a few other posters and see that claiming you answered something you never answered just makes your entire argument look weak.

reply to post by kinda kurious


Then please give us proof of his eligibility as I have had to do so many times (retired military officer). Why so much hiding of something so constitutional. Everything about this man reeks of dead promises and constant lying. How sick does sick have to be before individuals wake up. I guess "sick as hell".

Originally posted by gaslaugh123
reply to post by kinda kurious

 

Then please give us proof of his eligibility as I have had to do so many times (retired military officer). Why so much hiding of something so constitutional. Everything about this man reeks of dead promises and constant lying. How sick does sick have to be before individuals wake up. I guess "sick as hell".

What about the birth certificate and full explanation of verification did you not understand?

I had a political phone call from a Democratic party member, wanting me to climb on board.
This person said it was the intent of some of the democratic members to dump Obamass and place Biden in place after Obamas dethroned.
I just informed the person, I could give a good #, and though I would never think of doing it myself, being noneviolent, but they should shoot all of the attoreny's and politian's. period
I myself would not harm a fly even if they bug me.

reply to post by joey_hv


who cares.

if obama got into the presidency without extensive research on the subject, than hes smart enough to lead the country.

the thing is, extensive research was done many times, he wasn't chosen of the elites before birth; he did a lot of traveling, had a few different names connected to school policies of different origins. he was born in hawaii.

i'd be more supportive of him if he wasn't. that would be hilarious.

no matter what, he's doing a pretty good job. getting such negative feedback from the religious is enough feedback for me to salute him as whatever they call him. be it antichrist or hitler.

truth is, he isn't extremely liberal, which means he's a pansy. he needs to drop bi-partisan ideas; that will never work; the party of hell no is the party of ruining america just to keep religion the forefront of america, no matter the consequences.

why does he need to show it? the constitution matters little since enough people question his citizenship. if i was president i'd show it to clear up the matter and garner support. What president doesn't want more support for his job to be easier.

doesn't make any sense. what, do the disinformation agents make dead horse beating pictures? i thought they'd be making videos by now.

Actually the real problem with Obama is the natural born requirement in the Constitution. Even being born in Hawaii the major problem is that his father had English citizenship. So at birth Obama held dual citizenship. The term natural born required that both parents be US citizens. Just based on that he's illegal. Never mind where he was born.

reply to post by alexgia


uh, reality check.. it is already too late. he is the pres, and no one is going to remove him until next next election. where then we'll get stuck with some other lying pos, who may or may not be American.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


I am afraid First, you will have to provide me with the specific law that states that you are entitled to have a copy of Obama's COLB. Secondly, you will have to provide for me verifiable proof that you are a document expert that can make the determination in open court whether or not the document you intend to have possession of is in fact legitimate or not. Thirdly, assuming that you are able to get a hold of a certified copy of the COLB as depicted by FactCheck.org thus proving the Prima Facie Evidence that Obama was indeed born in Hawai'i thus satisfying his jus soli requirement under the Constitution for his Natural Born Citizenship status, you would have to bring up evidence of your own that refutes the Prima Facie Evidence provided by the COLB.

Otherwise, it's would appear that it's a grand case of extortion being perpetrated on the POTUS by a group of individuals who have conspired together to attempt to blackmail the POTUS into resigning his presidency based on this ignorant theory. That is the intent of birthers, they wish for Obama to resign his presidency based on the theory (still unproven) that he was born in Kenya instead of Hawai'i as he has claimed.

reply to post by whatukno

I am afraid First, you will have to provide me with the specific law that states that you are entitled to have a copy of Obama's COLB. Secondly, you will have to provide for me verifiable proof that you are a document expert that can make the determination in open court whether or not the document you intend to have possession of is in fact legitimate or not.

To your first assertion I would point to The Constitution of the United States of America, a powerful law indeed. In fact, so powerful is this law, it is known as the Supreme Law of the Land.

To your second point I would reply: I most certainly do not have to do any such thing. I have not ever presented myself as any sort of document expert, and merely stated had I an actual copy of birth certificate for Obama with an official state seal on it, I would be inclined to defend the man against these questions. Do you have a problem with that Wuk?

I have also stated that I do not think Hawaii should bear the brunt of this fiasco and regardless of the outcome, Obama should submit to a court of law his birth certificate so this matter can be laid to rest.

Thirdly, assuming that you are able to get a hold of a certified copy of the COLB as depicted by FactCheck.org thus proving the Prima Facie Evidence that Obama was indeed born in Hawai'i thus satisfying his jus soli requirement under the Constitution for his Natural Born Citizenship status, you would have to bring up evidence of your own that refutes the Prima Facie Evidence provided by the COLB.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make with this last quote but as best I can figure is that you have decided that "FactCheck.org" serves as Prima Facie evidence to Obama's legitimacy. If this is the case, my earlier explanation of what Prima Facie evidence is was a waste of time. An actual smoking gun is Prima Facie evidence, pictures of a smoking gun are not. Can you understand that?

Otherwise, it's would appear that it's a grand case of extortion being perpetrated on the POTUS by a group of individuals who have conspired together to attempt to blackmail the POTUS into resigning his presidency based on this ignorant theory. That is the intent of birthers, they wish for Obama to resign his presidency based on the theory (still unproven) that he was born in Kenya instead of Hawai'i as he has claimed.

I have no idea what the intent of these "birthers" are and I don't care. I have remained ambivalent about the whole issue and only comment when I see fallacious arguments being made, such as comparing an Illinois Mayor to Charles Manson, or suggesting that it really doesn't matter now since Obama has been elected and the "damage has been done". If Obama has no legitimate claim to the Presidency due to issues of birth, then all this "trust me, people have looked at my birth certificate and are satisfied", will only work with those who fawn all over the man.

If Obama is an American Citizen by birth, then this issue is easily settled by submitting his birth certificate in a court of law to be analyzed and settled. This is all I have been arguing, but first that other guy, and now you seem to believe that it is me who is perpetuating this "birther" issue. Not that you would ever bother to do so, but I challenge you to go through the entirety of my posts in this site and find anything that would make me appear as a "birther". If Obama is legitimately a U.S. citizen then let him prove it, not because all people have to in this country, to the best of my knowledge, all people don't, but this man, who has taken a sacred oath to uphold the Constitution does, or continue to be plagued with this question for the remainder of his Presidency. It is really that simple.



[edit on 18-4-2010 by Jean Paul Zodeaux]

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

To your first assertion I would point to The Constitution of the United States of America, a powerful law indeed. In fact, so powerful is this law, it is known as the Supreme Law of the Land.

Again, please show me in detail the specific section in the United States constitution that specifically allows you jean Paul Zodeaux to have a copy of Obama's COLB. Specifically, the words sir.

Do you have a problem with that Wuk?

In fact I do have a problem with a clear violation of any citizens 4th Amendment rights.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Odd, I don't see the exemption of the POTUS in that amendment. I might be mistaken, can you point out in the above amendment to the United States Constitution where it states specifically that the POTUS is exempt from these protections?

You guys, Barrack Obama WAS born in the United States or on a military base.

There is no way the NWO you believed put him in power would choose him were that not the case.

All this is is a trap.

All of you are soooo focused on this, it's a media game to distract you from the real issues, stop falling for it.

They are trying to make you look insane and stupid, it's all eventually going to come to a front and it will be discovered that yes, in fact, Obama was born in the United States, and then you will all be labeled as idiots and you're efforts will have been completely neutralized because you focused on this fake trump card.

You think that this is some kind of super cure to the situation, that all you have to do is just wait and complain and complain and he'll be forced out of office when it's realized he doesn't have one?

The state of Hawaii says he was born in Hawaii, even if he isn't a natural born citizen, that alone trumps your efforts. He can tell the powers that be that he needs a "more realistic" one this time around (since you all say the last was faked), and this more realistic one that the NWO makes for him will not be distinguishable from a real one, etc.

Is that what you guys will claim when he does give in to your demands and discredit you?

Stop being distracted, there are REAL, major issues going on right now that need your attention.

Originally posted by joey_hv
... respectable BIRTHER! ...

That's an oxymoron.

Second line.

[edit on 18-4-2010 by tyranny22]

The real question that we need to ask about Obama is "Why he was elected to be president". Just like every other President before him- he has been chosen to fulfill certain political duties. I feel that a lot of people who question Obama's citizenship are just racist( or don't approve of him because he is Black). I really don't care where he is from. Our government has the power to put politicians in certain places(ie. Bush in 2000 and 2004). So the question is WHY WAS OBAMA PLACED IN OFFICE???? Our government wants him there if they didn't he would be gone like Nixon(watergate) and JFK( killed in public 11-22-1963). WHY OBAMA?