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Arizona Illegal-Immigrant Law Draws Strong Opposition

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posted on Apr, 17 2010 @ 07:05 PM
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Arizona Illegal-Immigrant Law Draws Strong Opposition


news.yahoo.com

The toughest anti-illegal-immigrant measure in a generation passed the Arizona legislature this week. If signed, as expected, by Republican governor Jan Brewer, the law will give local police sweeping new powers in regard to undocumented workers. Currently, immigration offenses are violations of federal, not state, law, and local police officers only can inquire about a person's immigration status if that person is suspected of another crime.
(visit the link for the full news article)




posted on Apr, 17 2010 @ 07:05 PM
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I have very mixed feelings about this because of it giving any sort of new power to local authority, lowering from Federal power to State power.

Do not get me wrong, I believe Illegal Immigration says it all in the name, illegal, meaning breaking the law by being here in America through immigration, without going through proper channels.

I have zero issues with foreigners or immigrants, and never have, because to me someone wanting to come to America only means they want to better themselves, but when it comes to Illegal Immigration this means they have flouted our laws, are a criminal escaping their country, or a potential terrorist.

Am I saying I cannot understand the plight of someone wanting to better their life and wanting nothing to do with the bureaucracy of filing out paperwork, waiting for background checks, and as well interviews with various Government agencies?

No, actually I understand that very much, my current ex-girlfriend wanted to move here, and was caught in the Catch-22 of immigration because she neither had a Work VISA nor a corporation to sponsor her.

She did have her travel VISA in order to stay here for 3 months.

But I am leery of Government changing the power structure of how things are done, irregardless of how it might protect us as citizens because as many of us know the people in Government, from Barack Obama to the lowliest civil servant can and often do abuse the power they have when it comes to the laws, changing them, and or enforcing them.

Again, Illegal Immigration needs to stop, but it needs to stop at the border, enforcing the bored more, stopping the Coyote's from smuggling them in, not giving state Law Enforcement more powers.

I see the border as the issue, not that state's, nor the cities.

My meaning here is simple, through malfeasance, Federal authority is to blame for the border, in conjunction with those states on both the Mexican and Canadian borders.

And Human Trafficking is a horrible crime to me, we should be doing more federally, prior to locally.

news.yahoo.com
(visit the link for the full news article)



posted on Apr, 17 2010 @ 07:15 PM
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The traffickers have devised many ways to smuggle people into the US. It is very hard, without funding, to stop them from entering. As you see, Arizona is trying to eliminate the problem of drug cartels before the wars spill over onto their border.

I believe they are doing a good job in combating these criminals. No more illegals, and citizens can carry concealed weapons without licenses. You don't want to be caught between a drug war, those guys will kill any bloody thing that moves. They have no regards to any innocents, women and children.

They must be stopped by any means necessary.



posted on Apr, 17 2010 @ 07:17 PM
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With slipshod handling of the border each state is directly responsible for anyone getting past the border to begin with, which is something I have always been against, the fact that a complete lock-down is not handled smoother is amazing to me.

Do your job effectively or do not do it at all.

And of course there is the potential for actual border security being "Coyote's to begin with.

Arizona Clamps Down On Illegal Immigration


Arizona Lashes Out At Illegal Immigration


Quote from : Arizona Lashes Out At Illegal Immigration

PHOENIX -- Arizona is a state in turmoil, inundated by at least a half million illegal immigrants and torn apart by ways to handle these new residents.

Homemade street signs tell day laborers to keep moving.

State politicians who want to curtail illegal immigration are riding a wave of public support.

And radio call-in shows -- never a bastion of civility -- debate the issue almost daily, in both English and Español.

Public discontent with the situation has boiled over into state policy, leading voters and lawmakers to pass some of the most hardline anti-illegal immigrant laws in the country.


If we do not want Illegal Immigrants there should be a stronger sense of commitment.

Immigration Gumballs : Part 1

(click to open player in new window)


Immigration Gumballs : Part 2

(click to open player in new window)


[edit on 17-4-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]



posted on Apr, 17 2010 @ 07:28 PM
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I consider myself to be a pretty PC person, and I believe in manners and doing one's best not to offend someone....however

However

There are times when we are so scared of being called racist and we are so frightened of offending a person that we let that person (or people) walk all over us. The drawn out situation of illegal immigration is one of those times and it needs to end. We can be 'nice' without being a doormat.



posted on Apr, 17 2010 @ 08:04 PM
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Originally posted by Equinox99
The traffickers have devised many ways to smuggle people into the US. It is very hard, without funding, to stop them from entering. As you see, Arizona is trying to eliminate the problem of drug cartels before the wars spill over onto their border.


Funding is not the issue, neither is manpower, it is ineptitude, malfeasance, and political manipulation.

If we are constantly reminded of Illegal Immigrants, if we have to worry about them being in the country, or possibly breaking into our houses, the Government can sell us on a solution, one which we would not normally agree to.

This would be Destron Fearing and the promotion of animal tracking, and their cousin organizations Verichip and Digital Angel.



Nothing more than allowing this issue to continue in order to pressure us through political blackmail into accepting the bio-chip, because of the criminal actions of others.


Originally posted by Equinox99
I believe they are doing a good job in combating these criminals. No more illegals, and citizens can carry concealed weapons without licenses. You don't want to be caught between a drug war, those guys will kill any bloody thing that moves. They have no regards to any innocents, women and children.

They must be stopped by any means necessary.


Any means necessary would include doing their jobs in the first place, correct?



posted on Apr, 17 2010 @ 08:12 PM
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Originally posted by Alora
I consider myself to be a pretty PC person, and I believe in manners and doing one's best not to offend someone....however

However

There are times when we are so scared of being called racist and we are so frightened of offending a person that we let that person (or people) walk all over us. The drawn out situation of illegal immigration is one of those times and it needs to end. We can be 'nice' without being a doormat.


I sure can see how that might apply to the less intelligent people in America.

However, if people actually researched politics, they would know about laws which sync up with what Arizona is doing, at the national level, which will connect to the state level.

The law is called the Real ID Act, hidden under legislation because of events like 9/11, not just foreigners, but American's will be forced to wear the device in the previous post.


Quote from : Wikipedia : Real ID Act

The REAL ID Act of 2005, Pub.L. 109-13, 119 Stat. 302, enacted May 11, 2005, was an Act of Congress that modified U.S. federal law pertaining to security, authentication, and issuance procedures standards for the state driver's licenses and identification (ID) cards, as well as various immigration issues pertaining to terrorism.

The law set forth certain requirements for state driver's licenses and ID cards to be accepted by the federal government for "official purposes", as defined by the Secretary of Homeland Security.

The Secretary of Homeland Security has defined "official purposes" as presenting state driver's licenses and identification cards for boarding commercially operated airline flights and entering federal buildings and nuclear power plants.

The REAL ID Act implements the following:

* Changing visa limits for temporary workers, nurses, and Australian citizens.

* Establishing new national standards for state-issued driver licenses and non-driver identification cards.

* Funding some reports and pilot projects related to border security.

* Introducing rules covering "delivery bonds" (rather like bail bonds but for aliens who have been released pending hearings).

* Updating and tightening the laws on application for asylum and deportation of aliens for terrorist activity.

* Waiving laws that interfere with construction of physical barriers at the borders.

As of April 2, 2008, all 50 states have either applied for extensions of the original May 11, 2008 compliance deadline or received unsolicited extensions.

As of October 2009, 25 states have approved either resolutions or binding legislation not to participate in the program, and with President Obama's selection of Janet Napolitano (a prominent critic of the program) to head the Department of Homeland Security, the future of the law remains uncertain, and bills have been introduced into Congress to amend or repeal it.

The most recent of these, dubbed PASS ID, would eliminate many of the more burdensome technological requirements but still require states to meet federal standards in order to have their ID cards accepted by federal agencies.


If American citizens were not so damn politically lazy, and unknowing of the laws they might have stopped this process, instead of ignorantly asking for it.



Something as small as a penny, which looks insignificant, will hold us as digital prisoners.

Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment


[edit on 17-4-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]



posted on Apr, 17 2010 @ 08:16 PM
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reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
 


You must remember, a problem isn't a problem until it is nation wide. Politicians are only concerned about what goes on in their states. If the problem ain't here than we don't care type of deal. This leaves states with the problem to combat these lunatics on their own.

The border patrol guards are all scared. Remember what happened to the two border patrol cops who shot the guy smuggling marijuana over the border? Ramos-Compean. They were fighting the fight of their lives, when George Bush pardoned them with less then 24 hours left in his presidency.

FYI, no one will go for the Verichip. There are too many Christians for this to work. A preacher could just simply yell the mark of the beast, and you will get a big public back-lash.

You are under the assumption that it is easy doing the job of a border patrol. You have a very, very long border to protect. There are tunnels dug on the Mexican side to help bring people in. Some of these have been found, some have not.



posted on Apr, 17 2010 @ 08:30 PM
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Originally posted by Equinox99
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
 


You must remember, a problem isn't a problem until it is nation wide. Politicians are only concerned about what goes on in their states. If the problem ain't here than we don't care type of deal. This leaves states with the problem to combat these lunatics on their own.


I know that the problem is not a problem until it is nationwide.

That is a part of both the problem and the solution.

They make it so it becomes a bigger issues, like a virus spreading, so the whole country will be "sick", which will need a remedy, the remedy however is worse.


Originally posted by Equinox99
The border patrol guards are all scared. Remember what happened to the two border patrol cops who shot the guy smuggling marijuana over the border? Ramos-Compean. They were fighting the fight of their lives, when George Bush pardoned them with less then 24 hours left in his presidency.


And when the C.I.A. pays criminal organizations to smuggle drugs in, so the D.E.A. and Border Security has a problem to find, what then exactly?


Originally posted by Equinox99
FYI, no one will go for the Verichip. There are too many Christians for this to work. A preacher could just simply yell the mark of the beast, and you will get a big public back-lash.


Really?

People have their pets "chipped" already.

Prisoners in the United Kingdom are being chipped.

And Mexicans are already being "chipped".

RFID Coverage: Mexican Police Chipped


Christianity will stop this process how exactly considering anyone who refuses will be labeled a terrorist?


Originally posted by Equinox99
You are under the assumption that it is easy doing the job of a border patrol. You have a very, very long border to protect. There are tunnels dug on the Mexican side to help bring people in. Some of these have been found, some have not.


I am under no assumption whatsoever, I research this information, quite thoroughly.

Operat ion Gatekeeper: The Rise of the 'Illegal Alien' and the Remaking of the U.S.-Mexico Boundary


Amazon Review :

In October 1994, the Immigration and Naturalization Service began Operation Gatekeeper. Its goal was to reduce the movement of Mexicans across the U.S. border between San Diego and Tijuana.

Nevins (Berkeley), who writes for the Nation, the Progressive, the Los Angeles Times, and other publications, examines this operation in the context of immigration between these two countries.

A historical account of the United States-Mexico border shows that, up through recent times, the movement of peoples between the two countries was of relatively little concern.

Not until the period of 1970 to the 1990s did political pressures make securing the border a pressing national issue.

In turn, this pressure popularized the concept of the illegal alien. Operation Gatekeeper itself was developed by the Clinton administration to counter efforts by Gov. Pete Wilson to restrict Mexican migration into California as well as the Proposition 187 movement to deny education, health, and social services to undocumented immigrants.

While the operation did defuse anti-immigrant feelings, it made the crossing much more dangerous and resulted in an increased loss of life.

This work complements Peter Andreas's Border Games: Policing the U.S.-Mexico Divide (LJ 8/00) and Pablo Vila's Crossing Borders, Reinforcing Borders: Social Categories, Metaphors, and Narrative Identities on the U.S.-Mexican Frontier (Univ. of Texas, 2000).

Nevins does a good job of presenting the case, but the result is a narrowly focused work that is most appropriate for academic libraries. Stephen L. Hupp, West Virginia Univ., Parkersburg

Copyright 2001 Reed Business Information, Inc.


One of many such books I've read on this topic as well as thorough researching.

No Place To Hide : Face Recognition, Information Data-Mining, and Loss of Anonymity



posted on Apr, 17 2010 @ 09:39 PM
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reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
 


I'm going to assume you don't live down here, so I'll take it easy on ya.

First of all, this should have been a state issue a LONG time ago. I've lived here for 25 years now and I've seen this problem escalating for a long time . It started getting bad long before it started making the news. Why has nothing been done about it? Because the Feds thought they knew how to handle the problem. They don't and they never will. Why? They've got terrorists to chase and big money to catch. Illegal immigrants don't have any money. Except of course the drug dealers, but they make up only a fraction of the Mexicans crossing the borders.

The crimes commited by the majority of illegals are local issues, the Feds have nothing to do with it. Local law enforcement agencies state wide have had their hands tied by the Feds for too long now. The 2 most recent bills to pass the legislature are way overdue IMO.

Sheriff Joe Arpaio is disliked by certain people by his wild west "go git em" attitude on topics like this. Washington doesn't like him much, and a lot of politicians down here don't like him either. Why? Because he keeps stepping on their toes. Because he figured out a long time ago that illegal immigration is a local issue because it affects local municipalities and he's not afraid to tell the higher ups what's REALLY going on.

He basically has told them that he needs more authority to combat the issue because people on the Federal level aren't getting the job done. And he's right and that pisses them off. People like me have seen this going on for over 20 years and we keep voting him back into office because we can see that he represents OUR needs, not any do-gooder special interest group.

I understand the need for Federal laws. But not in this case. Where were the Feds when the rancher who owns land along the border got shot and killed by an illegal? They sure as hell weren't on THAT case.

Let every state along the border have their own local laws dealing with the problem. That way, when the illegals get caught, they get arrested, spend maybe a night in the pokey, and get shipped straight back to Mexico instead of waiting for upwards of a week for the Feds to decide what the PC thing to do with them is THIS week before shipping them back.

Personally, I don't care what THEIR plight is, we've got enough of our own to worry about. Think about what the unemployment rate would be in the border states if we didn't have nearly as many illegals. And don't tell me it would be neglitiable or that they take the jobs no one else wants. I don't buy that for a second. I know of a lot of unemployed kids fresh out of high school who would take their jobs in a heartbeat. Don't tell me there are Federal laws already in place to ensure that employers don't hire them. Those laws don't work and everyone down here knows it.

There is nothing positive about illegal immigrants being in this country. How can they be an asset to this country if they weren't an asset to their own? Don't bother, I already know what the coming argument will be. A Currupt government and local druglords. Which part of the population do you think outnumbers the other? If the poor illegals really wanted a better life, they would overthrow the people standing in their way of that. The cold, hard truth of the matter is that they want an easy way out and they know America will give it to them because America doesn't want to offend anybody so we can continue to have good foriegn relations with them. There are honest, hard working Mexicans down here, don't get me wrong. But the main difference here is that they are here LEGALLY.

Maybe if we stopped giving them free passes up here, forced them to stay in their own country, they would stand up and actually make a change for themselves. I say let's try it and find out.

The argument that this government is in cahoots with their government to keep crime rates up for a multitude of reasons may be true. I'll give you that. But that should be reason enough to take away some of their power and put it on the local level, don't you think? They have their own agenda to think about and we have ours.

Jan Brewer and Joe Arpaio both have my vote. Keep up the good work.



Peace






posted on Apr, 17 2010 @ 09:57 PM
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What gets me are the pro-alien activists who are so concerned that the Arizona state law will "stand presumed innocence on its head"... What they're talking about, of course, is the fact that suspects under the American system are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

For some unfathomable reason, pro-alien activists think that the U.S. Constitution protects citizens of other countries.

However, the American system is designed to protect American citizens, not illegal aliens who are actively breaking American law simply by being in this country.

We have no obligation to treat illegal aliens as American citizens under the Constitution. We have no obligation to extend them any courtesy except to deport them back to Mexico — unless, of course, they have committed even more dire crimes against American citizens, which is frequently the case.

I applaud the State of Arizona for bringing down the hammer on these illegal aliens, as well as for defying the Federal Government, which has utterly failed to protect our borders in an era when national security is of such paramount importance.

— Doc Velocity



posted on Apr, 17 2010 @ 10:01 PM
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reply to post by Taupin Desciple
 


There is the biggest part of the problem, because according to what I am reading you're saying is the crime only happens at the state level, which is incorrect.

If and when they cross into America, illegally, they have committed a crime at the Federal level.

The border is a Federal property, and a State run issue, however, due to a lack of cooperation, funding, and the corruption within our Government, it is easily manipulated by those people trying to force the issue of the bio-chip through legislation abuses.

Once those Illegal Immigrant have passed that border, they have already committed a crime, and therefor are fugitives from justice, and should be sought out by Federal authority, which means not only does that involve the State Department, but as well the the F.B.I. because they have entered into the our country having committed a crime through the mere fact of walking, crawling through tunnels, and or being smuggled in by Coyote's.



This is just to make us further into the Police State and demand our identification, everywhere.



posted on Apr, 17 2010 @ 10:14 PM
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Originally posted by Doc Velocity
What gets me are the pro-alien activists who are so concerned that the Arizona state law will "stand presumed innocence on its head"... What they're talking about, of course, is the fact that suspects under the American system are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.


Well, I understand where you're coming from, Doc, however I am not "pro-alien".

I see the abuse of power coming from those politicians using Illegal Immigration as a means to undermine our Constitutional Rights, my beliefs have nothing to do with the presumed innocent context you mentioned.

It is from using my logic to see the politicians in Washington D.C. using Divide and Conquer, dividing us against each other through fear of an issue which should be handled better, but due to malfeasance, corruption, and criminal complicity in D.C., we're being sold up the river, with not paddle, and those are not logs floating in that brown water, Doc.


Originally posted by Doc Velocity
For some unfathomable reason, pro-alien activists think that the U.S. Constitution protects citizens of other countries.


That's the biggest piece of crap I've ever heard, Doc.

Anyone ignorant enough to believe that does not belong in America.

Which is why I am constantly learning the laws as they change, fluctuate, and manipulated by those bastards in power, because if we do not keep up with the laws, we're screwed.


Originally posted by Doc Velocity
However, the American system is designed to protect American citizens, not illegal aliens who are actively breaking American law simply by being in this country.


I agree with you there.

Those Illegal Immigrants have broken the laws as they passed the border, illegally.

Why else would they call it Illegal Immigration to begin with?


Originally posted by Doc Velocity
We have no obligation to treat illegal aliens as American citizens under the Constitution. We have no obligation to extend them any courtesy except to deport them back to Mexico — unless, of course, they have committed even more dire crimes against American citizens, which is frequently the case.


I agree with you there too, kick their butts out, and actively seek for Mexico or Canada, or whatever other country to keep them out of our country, by pushing the State Department.

Unfortunately, Foggy Bottom, is nothing more than a bureaucratic excuse for needless Government.

Useless, bloated, and over-excused for not doing their jobs.


Originally posted by Doc Velocity
I applaud the State of Arizona for bringing down the hammer on these illegal aliens, as well as for defying the Federal Government, which has utterly failed to protect our borders in an era when national security is of such paramount importance.

— Doc Velocity


Well, I applaud Arizona for doing anything, but disagree with you to an extent.

The Federal Government has been compromised by our own Federal Government.

It seeks to usurp the U.S. Constitution through corporations outsourcing the process of the bio-chip, which allows them deniability, to completely walk over us.

[edit on 17-4-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]



posted on Apr, 17 2010 @ 10:31 PM
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Tough times call for tough measures. Things are severe in AZ and it calls for severe methods. whatever it takes to get the situation under control.
I am 100% pro profiling, even if I would be part of those profiled I would be ok with showing my BIRTH CERTIFICATE to prove I am a citizen...ahem..cough cough...



posted on Apr, 17 2010 @ 10:37 PM
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Originally posted by joey_hv
Tough times call for tough measures. Things are severe in AZ and it calls for severe methods. whatever it takes to get the situation under control.
I am 100% pro profiling, even if I would be part of those profiled I would be ok with showing my BIRTH CERTIFICATE to prove I am a citizen...ahem..cough cough...


I never said I was against profiling, I know how to profile, and understand but disagree with racial profiling.

I have zero issue with handing over my Passport or Drivers License.

However, I have a problem with the abuses of power I see, including malfeasance.

Love the glasses, by the way, made me think of this clip, from My Name Is Earl.

Erik Estrada on "My name is Earl"



posted on Apr, 17 2010 @ 10:42 PM
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reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
 


What you're saying is true. The border is Federal property and once they cross it, it is a FEDERAL crime. But after they go, say 100 feet, they are now in the STATE of Arizona. Then when they break into someone's house in an unicorperated area, it is now a COUNTY problem. If they then go to town and break another crime, it is the TOWN's problem.

The Feds used to think that every one of those issues belonged to them simply because the first law to be broken was a federal law and that supercedes all other laws. That's not the case anymore and it should've been that way all along.



I'm wondering, if the illegal who shot and killed the rancher on his own property gets caught, who gets jurisdiction over the case? Remember, his property touches the Mexican border. If it's the feds, then who would've gotten the case had the rancher shot and killed first? [ assuming of course they found the body] The spot where it happened was not ON the border, it was on private property.

The point is, the state of Arizona just made it simpler to answer those types of questions and that's a VERY good thing in my book.



Peace



posted on Apr, 17 2010 @ 11:07 PM
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Originally posted by Taupin Desciple
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
 


What you're saying is true. The border is Federal property and once they cross it, it is a FEDERAL crime. But after they go, say 100 feet, they are now in the STATE of Arizona. Then when they break into someone's house in an unicorperated area, it is now a COUNTY problem. If they then go to town and break another crime, it is the TOWN's problem.


Yes, I understand once they are past the border, it becomes a local issue.

However, the Federal system abuses the State system, through the games of funding.

And the border is a political no-man's land once you're within certain zones.

I have always believed that there should be a wall closing off our country.

With controlled choke-points.

What we've had down there has been a joke forever.


Originally posted by Taupin Desciple
The Feds used to think that every one of those issues belonged to them simply because the first law to be broken was a federal law and that supercedes all other laws. That's not the case anymore and it should've been that way all along.


Technically, because it is international property which is crossed, the C.I.A. and State Department are the first people responsible, if you think about it honestly.

The problem is the C.I.A. is lazy.

They see immigration as not being sexy enough for them to care.

And as well this is an area where they would abuse these laws anyway.

In regards to covert operations and spies it has always been a problem.


Originally posted by Taupin Desciple
I'm wondering, if the illegal who shot and killed the rancher on his own property gets caught, who gets jurisdiction over the case? Remember, his property touches the Mexican border. If it's the feds, then who would've gotten the case had the rancher shot and killed first? [ assuming of course they found the body] The spot where it happened was not ON the border, it was on private property.


I guess that all depends upon whether the Illegal Immigrant was a fugitive from justice in their home country, or if they were seeking asylum from tyranny.

It is a complex issue and as well one most people know nothing about to begin with.

When it comes to both foreign and domestic laws I keep up to date at all times.


Originally posted by Taupin Desciple
The point is, the state of Arizona just made it simpler to answer those types of questions and that's a VERY good thing in my book.



Peace


I see it as making a horrible situation worse only because this will help force the bio-chip.

And as well there are many things going on at the border right now.

Between Swine Flu and the World Health Organization I suspect we're being screwed.


(click to open player in new window)


[edit on 17-4-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]



posted on Apr, 18 2010 @ 12:39 AM
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Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
I see the abuse of power coming from those politicians using Illegal Immigration as a means to undermine our Constitutional Rights...

I understand precisely why those power-hungry whores in DC have been championing illegal immigration for over 30 years — Number One, it's a formidable source of cheap labor; Number Two, it's a formidable source of new voters for whichever politicians champion amnesty for illegal aliens.

That's why you saw Democrats and Republicans alike attempting to finagle an alien amnesty & instant citizenship deal back in 2006 and 2007, against the will of the majority of the American people. We saw Ted Kennedy, John McCain and George Bush all on the same side of that farce — it was an effort to push through instant citizenship for some 20 million illegal aliens, thus creating 20 million new voters.

Both the Democrats and the Republicans wanted those voters, and the clowns in Washington were jumping through hoops backwards to make it happen.

I knew it was corruption at the highest levels in 2007 when John McCain came down here to North Carolina (where we have a major illegal alien problem) and attempted to "soothe" our collective angst. McCain lost his cool, however, on a local radio station and blurted out that those in Washington know better than the American people what is best for America.

That's when I knew McCain was a sell-out. That's when I knew that the moderate George Bush was in bed with Congressional liberals, and that the illegal alien issue wasn't about national security — it was about securing a massive new voter base and a new source of federal revenue.


Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas

Originally posted by Doc Velocity
For some unfathomable reason, pro-alien activists think that the U.S. Constitution protects citizens of other countries.

That's the biggest piece of crap I've ever heard, Doc. Anyone ignorant enough to believe that does not belong in America.

And yet you know it's true. Pro-alien activists and liberals of every stripe are constantly projecting American rights onto citizens of other nations, as though the U.S. Constitution was a document of universal freedom and American rights extend to anyone anywhere on the planet.

I've seen this same faulty thinking at work in America as far back as my college days in the 1970s, when campus liberals would assure Iranian exchange students that their freedom of speech was protected in America. We had small riots at our college when the Iranians started blasting American imperialism, right, and the exchange students were shipped out. Shortly thereafter, the Iran hostage crisis came down.

But, see, the freedom of speech of those exchange students was not guaranteed under our Constitution. They were Iranian nationals, here on student visas, which gave them a few rights, but definitely not the same rights as American citizens.

Just so, we see these pro-alien activists crowing about the "rights" of illegal aliens being violated. Which is nonsense.

— Doc Velocity



posted on Apr, 28 2010 @ 09:13 AM
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Originally posted by Doc Velocity
I understand precisely why those power-hungry whores in DC have been championing illegal immigration for over 30 years — Number One, it's a formidable source of cheap labor; Number Two, it's a formidable source of new voters for whichever politicians champion amnesty for illegal aliens.


Yes, agreed, but as well pushing the Xenophobic envelope.

As nothing more than a leverage point for political and taxable blackmail.

Blackmail against those states seeking funding and against citizens who want protection.

Blackmail : Keep Your Friends Close, Keep Your Enemies Closer, The Threat of Subversion Through Fear

When it eventually wears off, like it is now, the selling of the bio-chip program will be easier.


Quote from : Wikipedia : Xenophobia

Xenophobia is a dislike and/or fear of that which is unknown or different from oneself.

It comes from the Greek words ξένος (xenos), meaning "stranger," "foreigner" and φόβος (phobos), meaning "fear."

The term is typically used to describe a fear or dislike of foreigners or of people significantly different from oneself, usually in the context of visibly differentiated minorities.



Originally posted by Doc Velocity
That's why you saw Democrats and Republicans alike attempting to finagle an alien amnesty & instant citizenship deal back in 2006 and 2007, against the will of the majority of the American people. We saw Ted Kennedy, John McCain and George Bush all on the same side of that farce — it was an effort to push through instant citizenship for some 20 million illegal aliens, thus creating 20 million new voters.


Oh no, they would never work both sides against the middle.


Please, note the sarcasm, because I agree with you there too.

Anything for new voters while simultaneously screwing the older voters is fair game.

Especially in Washington D.C. where duplicity is the middle name of 99.9% of politicians.

There's that 0.01% which still believes, that's it, and they are silenced by the majority of corruption.

And as well a new voter base from which to draw potential soldiers through citizenship requirements, constraints, and promises, meanwhile pre-planning screwing them as Veterans, just like the rest of us Americans.

The problem there is it will actually be easier since they are "new American's".


Originally posted by Doc Velocity
Both the Democrats and the Republicans wanted those voters, and the clowns in Washington were jumping through hoops backwards to make it happen.


Of course, new voters to fleece, oh sorry, my bad, to "represent".

Meanwhile, taking money, hand-over fist, from lobbiysts and special interests.

Double and tripled dipping so much the politicians forgot who they work for.

And do not actually give a damn anymore except for the re-election machine.


Originally posted by Doc Velocity
I knew it was corruption at the highest levels in 2007 when John McCain came down here to North Carolina (where we have a major illegal alien problem) and attempted to "soothe" our collective angst. McCain lost his cool, however, on a local radio station and blurted out that those in Washington know better than the American people what is best for America.


Like Hell he does, he's nothing more than a joke, everyone knows it.

Those people as high up as McCain always forget where they came from.

Down here on the ground, where the corruption affects people, directly.

By down here, I mean at the city level, where people have to live through it.

McCain probably hasn't pumped his own gasoline in 50 years.

Never trust a person who doesn't pump their own gasoline or drive themselves.


Originally posted by Doc Velocity
That's when I knew McCain was a sell-out. That's when I knew that the moderate George Bush was in bed with Congressional liberals, and that the illegal alien issue wasn't about national security — it was about securing a massive new voter base and a new source of federal revenue.


Funny, Doc, all it takes it for me to hear a poltician's name whispered.

You must be slipping.


Seriously, I can look at a politician, and tell which corruption it is for the day.


Originally posted by Doc Velocity
And yet you know it's true. Pro-alien activists and liberals of every stripe are constantly projecting American rights onto citizens of other nations, as though the U.S. Constitution was a document of universal freedom and American rights extend to anyone anywhere on the planet.


Oh, I have no doubt it's true, but I do not believe it is as simple as "pro-aliens" and Liberals.

I know for a fact that Americans are pissed about "Illegal Aliens".

The problem stems from Washington D.C. and the political blackmail through malfeasance, ineptitude, corruption, and straight out plain dirty agenda.

The reason the word "alien" is used in "Illegal Alien" is for xenophobic tendencies.

And as well, there are enough people who believe in "aliens", as in "little green men".

This causes a division line through smoke and mirrors, similar to the Fog of War.


Quote from : Wikipedia : Fog of War

The fog of war is a term used to describe the level of ambiguity in situational awareness experienced by participants in military operations.

The term seeks to capture the uncertainty regarding own capability, adversary capability, and adversary intent during an engagement, operation, or campaign.

The term is ascribed to the Prussian military analyst Carl von Clausewitz, who wrote:

"The great uncertainty of all data in war is a peculiar difficulty, because all action must, to a certain extent, be planned in a mere twilight, which in addition not infrequently—like the effect of a fog or moonshine—gives to things exaggerated dimensions and unnatural appearance."

The term may also be a reference to the use of black powder in warfare, which often produced clouds of thick "fog", obscuring the battlefield from observers.


THE FOG OF WAR — ReThink Review


The difference is average citizens are subjected to this and the goal is that bio-chip.

North American Union & RFID


Use of "bread and circuses" sells the programs as well.

Baseball, football, new cell phone technology, the next American Idol.

Blah, blah, blah, waste of time, distraction, and dumbing down America.


Originally posted by Doc Velocity
I've seen this same faulty thinking at work in America as far back as my college days in the 1970s, when campus liberals would assure Iranian exchange students that their freedom of speech was protected in America. We had small riots at our college when the Iranians started blasting American imperialism, right, and the exchange students were shipped out. Shortly thereafter, the Iran hostage crisis came down.


The problem is that this is something most American's are ignorant about.

We have foreign exchange students on our soil all the time and their own countries interest is what they are generally concerned with, and through education they slip in and influence our politics, indirectly by being here, directly through reaching college level students who they can not only influence but recruit.

I have read enough about foreign exchange students being taken into an office, in their homeland, and told specificially what to look for, what to read about, what technology to purchase and send home, and as well recruiting practices.

I will suggest a list of books if you're interested, just let me know.


Originally posted by Doc Velocity
But, see, the freedom of speech of those exchange students was not guaranteed under our Constitution. They were Iranian nationals, here on student visas, which gave them a few rights, but definitely not the same rights as American citizens.

Just so, we see these pro-alien activists crowing about the "rights" of illegal aliens being violated. Which is nonsense.

— Doc Velocity


Personally, I see the name as self-explanatory, "Illegal Aliens", meaning illegal.

Those here under student visas are here as a guest of the United States.

Pack up and leave once their visa and or school is over, or become a citizen.

I have zero issue with someone becoming a citzen, if that's what they choose.

I happen to agree with the requirements for citizenship.

Some of it is needless bureaucracy, sure, but some of it is specifically done towards background checks, to make sure we're not taking in a criminal.

My recent ex-girlfriend did not understand why the Catch-22 situation existed.

She is an Aussie, and did not have a job, nor did she have a work visa.

And her being a woman waiting for a divorce to finalize did not want to get married again.

Not that I blame her, but it sure guaranteed our relationship would never work.

I tried to explain it to her but she wanted to live in denial and she moved back to denial.

Oh, excuse me, she moved back to Australia.

We even tried to get her hired on at the Australian Embassy in Washington D.C.

She had dual citizenship, with the U.K., due to her father being British.

And the Aussie Embassy said no because of that conflict of interest.

Our relationship ended and she went home, period.

[edit on 28-4-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]



posted on Apr, 28 2010 @ 10:26 AM
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I can understand the strong opposition. I am, what many would call, pro-alien for a variety of reasons.

The issue has less to do with the illegals themselves as they are a byproduct of the problem. If there was no need to be documented (including citizens) for federal taxation and no federal social programs the issue would not be nearly as detrimental as it's being portrayed.

We can not speak to this issue in a bubble, there are many components that come with a solution. Simply cracking down under current law will not really help the problem, but rather will simply extend the problem out indefinitely (like the war on drugs).

It's not a solution, it's perpetual policing of an issue that could be adjusted in a matter of years rather than decades more easily than many would like to admit because they are mired in the two sides (options) provided for them by the tv or radio station that thinks for them.

That's most people, although so do think for themselves, they really aren't being terribly creative or looking at the whole critically.

You must remove the candy. Simply trying to catch all the bugs that are attracted by it will leave you sitting watching the candy and swatting gnats all day.

Hardly a pragmatic solution.



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