It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Ghosts in spiritual terms... a much needed discussion.

page: 1
7
<<   2 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Apr, 17 2010 @ 10:20 AM
link   
Alright well I've been wondering about ghosts my whole life. The reason I'm posting this here in the Metaphysics forums is because I want to bring up some theories I have that relate to spirituality and such.

Anyway, people say ghosts draw energy to appear. Well this makes no sense to me because if an astral entity (which is what I'm going to assume a ghost would be if they're real) were to show themselves, they would have to lower their vibrational level. By doing so they wouldn't draw energy from their surroundings, they would disperse energy - so all of those paranormal shows and investigators out there really should be searching for dispersal of energy, not the drawing of it.

However, why would any entity lower their vibrational level on purpose? Lowering your vibrational level is not something you strive for... it naturally occurs when you do something wrong to put it in general terms, or when you're depressed, or eating unhealthy etc... So tell me, why would any entity lower their vibrational frequency to just mess with people in this density we live in?

Do you all believe in ghosts? If so, or if not, please explain why, and I'd really like to see if we can tie ghosts into spiritual terms.

Awhile back I came up with this idea that we leave energy signatures wherever we go, more so in places that something traumatic happens, or something that causes us to feel great emotion (can be good or bad). Perhaps the supposed residual hauntings people claim there to be, can simply be explained by energy signatures left by a person at a certain time (could be future or past since time is constant, although these residual hauntings supposedly are always past events such as a soldier being seen near a battle field).

This whole ghost stuff is really driving me sorta nuts because I can't figure out how to explain this rationally. Can we explain ghosts using spirituality? I mean obviously ghosts are said to be those people who have passed on, so yeah we have that relation, but I see no reason an entity would remain in this frequency/density after death - it makes no sense to me whatsoever. Can anyone shed some light on why this may occur? Or if you have something to add/change about what I'm saying, please share because I'm hoping we can get down to figuring this out rationally as I said I'm trying to do.

What do you spiritualists believe ghosts to be (if they're even real)? I think most paranormal stuff can be explained away very easily by natural occurrences, and people tend to overlook the things that create the illusions of ghosts. We see what we want to see, so if you have the mindset that there is a ghost in your house, you will always be on your toes to 'catch a glimpse' of said ghost. You see a shadow and automatically assume it's the ghost... but in reality it was just a normal shadow that maybe happened to take the shape of what seemed to be the figure of a body. Also, who is to say that after you pass on that you still have a human form? That is something that I am wondering about as well.

Now I can put some possibilities out here though that *may* be plausible but I'll let you all read and comment for yourselves.

If you believe in spirit guides, as I do, possibly they are lowering their frequency to help you, to make you notice something, to help you avoid a situation by leading you down a different path than you were about to go down... or maybe they are negative entities that have no problem lowering their vibrational frequency to 'mess' with us here in the physical realm. But once again, I find it hard to believe that part of our spiritual journey includes messing with people whom are still experiencing physical life; what would be the point? If you are there to help, you'd do that in other ways, maybe by helping them through their sub-conscious... I don't know though, this is all a bunch of speculation and I understand that, but this is all really rattling my cage because I seriously cannot pin point a good enough theory to satisfy my craving for this knowledge.

I could keep going on about this, but I'd really like to hear from everyone else and see what you all can come up with or have already come up with and/or believe.

So, please share! I'm looking forward to this conversation very much.

I wanted to add that it's possible people who are able to raise their vibrational levels naturally (there is many reasons why that may happen with a person such as being a compassionate person all the time, that will raise your frequency) are able to view short glimpses of entities from the astral realm. So, for example, you're in a good mood, everything is going well for you on this day, you've just done some stuff or something that was very selfless, your frequency is raised for a short time, and you're doing whatever, wherever, and happen to see a entity from the astral realm. Does this seem plausible? I mean maybe it goes both ways, if you are fearful, or a bad person overall, very selfish etc. and your frequency is low, maybe you are more likely to see/run into a negative energy. It's said that in homes that have negative hauntings there is usually some sort of background that's been happening such as spousal abuse (physical or emotional) which creates fear and other negative emotions. Because of this, you're more likely to allow negative entities to influence you, so that may explain people feeling strange, or seeing weird things... what do you think about this?

Edit to add more text

[edit on 17/4/2010 by highlyoriginal]




posted on Apr, 17 2010 @ 11:55 AM
link   
Have these 'vibrational energies' ever been validated ? The term's used a lot and spoken of as if it's a scientific fact. But maybe it's just something which sounded good in the late Victorian era. And caught on ?

All I can say is that I've seen two ghosts (apparitions, whatever) for sure. Not 'your' for sure, of course. But I'm sure.

They were entirely different. One was of the kind which is referred to as the 'echo type', i.e., it didn't interact, nor did it alter its appearance or behaviour. In other words, it was always the same. Did the same thing each and every time. So it would be of the variety described by the OP as similar to a 'stain'.

It wasn't haunting anyone. Sure, it was present in a dwelling, but it didn't move around or interfere. Fortunately. It was just there. It's to be doubted it possessed a consciousness. I saw it almost daily for approx. 3 years. It was lifelike. No grey mist. No orbs. It looked as the person it had been would have looked in real life, even down to pallid, waxy skin. It had been a timid person, I believe. From the Depression years, I'd say.

The other one, again, looked perfectly lifelike, even down to the shine on the hair and in the eyes -- good healthy complexion, ruddy cheeks. Different type of ghost altogether, for this one had come on a mission, which was to find some of its possessions. And it was right, it's possessions which --- due to unforeseen circumstances -- were in our home

I had no idea the items had belonged to a recently-deceased person. Further, they'd only been in our home for a few days and would be leaving soon. By chance, the day after seeing the ghost, I learned who the items had belonged to. And, by another twist of fate, I was casually shown a photo of the person, whom I immediately recognised as the ghost which had appeared the night before. Guess it's not often there's such a cluster of coincidences which allow for a ghost to be so swiftly identified. It was a very fortunate series of events, from my perspective, because if I hadn't learned who the ghost was and why he'd appeared in our home, I guess I'd still be none the wiser, all these years later

So, the second ghost must have had at least a form of consciousness, or it wouldn't have been able to locate it's possessions or even wanted to

So there we have two types of ghosts. There are probably many different types

Neither of them had visible legs below the knee level (approx.). This didn't affect their overall height


Now, as to the 'vibrational energies' issue and speaking here only from my own experiences --- I suspect that in order for a ghost to become visible (or audible, etc.), the witness is required to be what is known as mediumistic or psychic. Maybe everyone is, to a degree ? Don't know. What I do know is that I've have numerous (spontaneous) 'paranormal' type experiences, life-long, although sometimes a year could go by without any at all. Altogether, they number close to a hundred, I suppose. Just the luck of the draw, I think. Some people are what is known as 'born lucky' ... they win raffles, lotteries, prizes, etc. and come to take it for granted. Others are described as 'always landing on their feet'. No matter what happens to them, they seem to bounce back quickly, thanks to opportunities, benefactors, etc. And they too, come to take it for granted. Others just seem to have an affinity with animals, or plants or with musical instruments, or can turn their hand to just about anything. And there are those who have a lot of unusual experiences with what's called the 'paranormal' -- most of them unprovable. The latter are unlucky, really, because they have no proof to offer and often, the experiences are frightening

I went to the trouble to write all that because most people don't imagine they could sit down at a piano and play like Mozart. Nor do they believe they could pick up a saw and build a house. They don't believe that all they need do is step into a kitchen to become a brilliant chef. And most know that it takes more than sticking a few seeds in the ground to create a great garden

But for some reason, people think that all they have to do to see a ghost is sit in a supposedly 'haunted house'. Well, the reason's actually obvious, isn't it ? With just about anything else, you have to produce results. For example, those who want to be famous chefs have to produce the goods. Same with those who fancy themselves as architects or script writers or deep-sea divers. But when it comes to the paranormal, and ghosts in particular in this instance -- all it takes are claims of having seen one, backed by lots of wishful thinking

It's been my personal experience that ghosts appear just like you or I. So I don't know where the 'misty forms' and things-draped-in-sheets come from --- unless they were created by people who'd never seen a ghost, so simply invented all the mist and sheets stuff (which was believed by lots of others who'd never seen a ghost either)

The other thing, which I feel is important, is that it's been my personal experience that ghosts seem to have the power to alter the perception of the observer so that the observer will see the ghost. It's quite possible that ghosts are all around us, all of the time. With only some of them choosing to be seen. And those whose perception or consciousness can be influenced by ghosts --- require to be mediumistic/psychic. Which would explain why one person will see a ghost while the person next to them will not

For this reason, I personally doubt that ghosts can be filmed or photographed. I could be wrong. However, most videos of supposed ghosts which I've seen, look faked or have some other prosaic explanation

The ghosts which appeared before me did alter my perception or consciousness. Or, it could be that when we see ghosts, it's because we're on the same 'wave-length' as the ghost in question -- in the same way as some radios are tuned to pick-up certain bands/stations

However, it would be just a little bit too coincidental, wouldn't it, for the ghost which appeared in my home during the same brief time its possessions were in my home --- to also 'just happen to be' on the same wave-length as me ? Which inclines me to suspect that the ghost was running that little show

And that's not a comfortable thought, by any means. Think of the implications

I know I was in a different 'mind state' during the time I saw that ghost. The ghost 'took me over'. And it was pretty profound. Because, as I've related in other posts, I didn't snap out of that altered mind-state for some hours. After the ghost 'departed', I obviously remained in a zombie type state. In fact, I remembered nothing until approx. ten hours later. Then, for no apparent reason, I suddenly remembered the ghost and was able to describe him in detail. Yet during the intervening hours, I had completed a number of tasks (as was made obvious by the fact they'd been done) .... like a zombie. I'd undertaken those tasks and done several other things, yet I had no memory of doing them the following day. And even now, twenty and more years later, those missing hours have never been returned to my conscious memory

Only explanation is that the ghost caused a massive shock to my system, so that the body remained functional, but the mind went into hiding

The first ghost I mentioned, the Depression-era one, did virtually the same thing --- I saw it daily and even spoke briefly to it daily (always the same thing ... I said, ' I'm sorry' each time). Yet at the time, it was blocked from my consciousness. It was only after I was no longer required to go to that building, that the memory surfaced. So in my case at least, it appears my subconscious or some other mind-element, tries to protect me from the shock (nervous shock, I suppose) until it believes it's safe for me to consciously acknowledge what I'm experiencing or have experienced.. During the interim, I am basically a video-camera: I see and record. Later, when my mind believes it's safe to do so, I'm able to view what I've recorded (not a very elegant description, but hope it suffices as explanation for how these things affect me)

As to the spiritual element re: ghosts, I'm almost out of room here, but experiences I've had have basically persuaded me that some of us are fortunate insofar as we do have someone/something 'looking out for us'. But of course, it's all subjective, isn't it ? If I hadn't witnessed ghosts, I doubt very much that I'd believe they existed, and I do understand why others wouldn't believe in them




.



[edit on 17-4-2010 by Dock9]



posted on Apr, 17 2010 @ 12:02 PM
link   
I thought I saw a ghost myself about 6 or 7 years ago... when I was just a kid. Interesting story...

I was friends with a kid on my block who had cerebral palsy, and was confined to a wheelchair. His family had bought their house on our block because the previous owners had installed an elevator in it to access the three floors, because their son was paralyzed from the neck down after a diving accident.

The son was a professional diver, and after hitting the water after an accident, was paralyzed. Unfortunately, at the same time this occurred, his mother was diagnosed as terminal with cancer. His mother died only a few short months after they had the elevator installed, and the family moved away.

So my friend moves in with his new family, life is great and normal, until one morning my friend asks his mom who the lady is that keeps climbing into bed with him and massaging his back at night. His mother is totally shocked, and asks for more information. He just casually says that this lady climbs into bed with him every other night and just massages his back. He tried talking to her, but she didn't say anything, and was barely able to see her because he had really bad eyes and is unable to change position while sleeping.

So this happens, and then his mother wakes up one night and thinks she sees a woman standing in the doorway to her room. She closes her eyes for half a second, opens them, and suddenly this face is literally milimeters away from hers, the most angry face she had ever seen. She shut her eyes and grabbed her husband who woke and saw nothing.

Then they have an exchange student from japan staying in their home, and one day she sees a woman running into a bedroom upstairs. She goes upstairs to the room to see who is there, but the room is empty.

So then my part comes in; I had a sleepover at my friends house, and woke up in the middle of the night to see this giant lady towering right over my sleeping bag... she was wearing a green robe, and her face looked like molten wax to me, however this might have been because of the darkness as well as me not wearing my glasses. Either way, I saw and felt her, shut my eyes, and didn't sleep a wink for the next 5 hours. It sucked, because I had to go to the bathroom... I was so scared that I literally go up, felt my way to the bathroom, did my business, and returned to my sleeping bag all with my eyes closed shut.

Now my friends dad was very much into new-age stuff... he would get up every morning and meditate for a few hours, and he even wrote a book about karma and yin-and yang stuff. So he told my friend that whenever he saw the lady, to tell her to not be afraid of the light, and let herself be pulled into it. My friend told her this during her next few massaging excursions, which gradually slowed down pace, until finally one night she stopped appearing, and hasn't appeared since.

So now to what I think ghosts are....

I think that ghosts are the spirits of people who have died, but for whatever reason, either refuse to accept the fact that they have died, or have died in such a state of turmoil, panic, and regret, that they are extremely confused and don't know who/what they are.

As in the case of the ghost on my block, she obviously died in a state of turmoil, as her son had just suffered a life-changing accident, and she was totally unable to care for him. So she remained on earth, and found some kind of comfort and solace in caring for my friend, who like her son, was confined to a wheelchair.

I think that they become visible when they experience strong "human-negative emotions", such as fear, anxiety, regret, ect... these emotions cause them to lower their vibrational levels enough to be visible to us, and seeing as they have not yet entered the next world, they are un-aware of who they really are, and how they are interacting with the living world.

That's my idea at least... nonetheless though that night totally freaked me out, and I'll be totally happy if I never see a ghost again for the rest of my life.



posted on Apr, 17 2010 @ 12:22 PM
link   
I just skimmed through your post so if I missed this sorry. But if ghosts come with a lowering of the surrounding temperature wouldn't that imply that they are of lower vibration, taking energy from the surroundings to higher their frequency to our realm?

What does that make them....my mind swiftly moves towards the idea that ghosts are so called demons of lower density.



posted on Apr, 17 2010 @ 12:30 PM
link   
reply to post by Monts
 


Monts --- I think you're probably right about the ghost being that of the mother of the diving-accident boy

But when you think about it, she could have located her son. And would have done. If she'd been in full possession of her mental faculties

So it sounds as though she (the ghost) believed it was her son's back that she was massaging. And the reason she glared right into your friend's mother's face was because she (the ghost) was furious to find another woman in 'her' bed

In other words, it sounds as if the ghost wasn't fully aware that she was dead, which is quite possibly the reason for the appearance of many ghosts ... they don't realise they're dead

Starred for a very interesting post



posted on Apr, 17 2010 @ 12:39 PM
link   
reply to post by IAmD1
 



I don't think all or even the majority of ghosts are 'demons'. I think they're what they appear to be in many cases, i.e., the non-physical ghosts of the person they were in life

For instance, a few nights after a family member died suddenly, he appeared in the back yard

HE was a very courteous, family-loving man in life. We think he returned to say goodbye. Or quite possibly he didn't realise he'd died at that point and was confused by all the people crying at his own home

Unfortunately, the person approached by the ghost got such a fright that he turned around without a word and came inside the house

The ghost was never seen again



posted on Apr, 17 2010 @ 01:06 PM
link   
I've always taken a more parasychological view of ghosts as opposed to a spiritual one. At least for residual haunts, I agree with what you said. That it is simply a collection of mental or psychic energy that is collected in one place and eventually manifests itself as an apparition. Although I'm still not sure how to explain intelligent haunts. I suppose it too could be a collection of psychic energy, but to a much greater degree than a residual haunt. This theory seems to be supported by the Phillip Experiment of the 1970s.



posted on Apr, 17 2010 @ 05:17 PM
link   
reply to post by Dock9
 


You question me about the validation of vibrational frequencies (which we all have) and yet you use the term "wave lengths" in your post. Basically you talked about what I did just using different words. You say we have to be on the same "wave lengths" or whatever to see them, and I said in the OP that the ghosts (if real) have to probably lower their frequency to our level for us to be able to see them. Sounds alike does it not?

And no offense, I appreciate you sharing your stories, but it sounds like you may have possibly had some sort of lucid dreams or maybe even some sort of memory loss issues which would explain the time lapses you had (could be way off here though). You mention that your state of mind changed, and it took a long time for you to even have the memory of the interaction come to you... well, maybe it never actually happened? I've never heard anyone explain seeing a ghost the way you did, unless you want to come out and say you think your were possessed and you didn't remember the experience until you were allowed to have control over yourself once again. Please don't take offense, I'm just being honest here.

reply to post by Monts
 


Very cool story. If I closed my eyes to make sure I was really seeing said ghost, and opened them to see them just millimeters away I'd freak the hell out. I honestly don't ever get scared, but I will fully admit that would make me run like hell! Haha! It's weird your friend didn't feel weird that someone was getting into his bed and touching him, although I'll take a free massage every other night, ghost or not, it's all good
I wonder if ghosts can give happy endings


Anyway, keep sharing stories people, but my main thing here I want to get down to figuring out how ghosts work, so let me hear your theories/opinions.

[edit on 17/4/2010 by highlyoriginal]



posted on Apr, 17 2010 @ 05:30 PM
link   
To me ghosts are not one single thing..but many.
Those that are witnessed in the same place, at the same time, doing the same thing..are just replays in time.
Time is not linear..past, present, and future, co-exist.

Those spirits that seem to interact with us...are a different sort.
They may be stuck between realities, or dimensions...too attached to this existence, or they may just be malevolent...knowing that there are certain things in this plane that they can manipulate to make us fear them. It gives them power.
You cannot group all sightings or experiences as ghost sightings or encounters, because each is as unique as the spirit and story behind it's life and death.



posted on Apr, 17 2010 @ 05:32 PM
link   

Originally posted by IAmD1
I just skimmed through your post so if I missed this sorry. But if ghosts come with a lowering of the surrounding temperature wouldn't that imply that they are of lower vibration, taking energy from the surroundings to higher their frequency to our realm?

What does that make them....my mind swiftly moves towards the idea that ghosts are so called demons of lower density.


You should have read the whole thing but thats ok


The thing about the temperature being lowered is not proven, and if you watch like "Ghost Hunters" or something you will notice they find lots of cold spots. In my post I did talk about how they would have to lower their vibration for us to see them - in fact that was the point of my whole post (well a large chunk of it). My point was if they're lowering their frequency to allow us to see them, I can't see how they're doing something positive because lowering your frequency is not something you want to do - you should always be trying to raise it. Although you will always have times where you're more prone to negative entities effecting you because we all go through hard times and our frequency gets lowered without us doing something 'bad' to lower it.

The thing is, I don't think every ghost would be some sort of demonic entity, because look at all the accounts of people experiencing a sighting, how many of those were bad experiences where the person felt sick/traumatized and was attacked physically or emotionally? Not many. Most people just see these 'ghosts' and that's that. I think the people who experience negative entities are usually causing the problems themselves, or at the very least, they're making their problem much worse then it has to be. For example, someone gets the idea they saw a ghost, they start focusing on it sub-consciously and are fearful. The mind plays tricks, and before you know it the person is claiming they are being attacked by some ghost... I'm not going to say every case is like this, but I believe that a lot of ghost sightings and other paranormal activity can be explained away and debunked.

There is so many different types of sounds people hear that are literally just their house and different pipes or heating ducks for example. I hate the whole EVP stuff. Basically it's a bunch of crap. If you listen to some garbled sound, your mind naturally tries to hear something out of it, especially if you're looking for it. Then you tell someone "Hey listen to this, it's a ghost saying "Leave me alone!" - Well the power of influence is strong in these situations especially, so now said person listens to the recording and hears the same thing, but only because they were told before hand what to expect.



posted on Apr, 17 2010 @ 07:00 PM
link   
I'm wondering if perhaps we should establish at least a working definition of "ghosts" and "spirits". I believe they are two different entities.

Access Denied was leaning in this direction with her post.

Ghosts could be any number of things. Fragments of spirits, residual energy, people full of shame, or other negative preoccupations, who from fear are unable to move about or master other realms.

I see spirits (which I think the OP was primarily interested in? or maybe I'm mistaken) as those humans who have passed away, but have free will. They might come and go from our dimension at will. These might be our deceased relatives, dropping by to check on us, or to just to drop by to visit their old home, or bookcase, or wedding ring, or (you get the picture).

I like the idea of having "raised vibrational frequencies", and having the wall which separates us, become thinner for a moment. But in terms of the "spirits" as I have defined above, I think they might only be seen if they wish to be. Don't you? And it's not that often. Perhaps they are afraid of frightening us poor curious, earthbound humans.

I sense at times that my vibrations are higher..somehow, and yet, honestly, I have never seen either a ghost or a spirit. (Although I will not deny I'm not without experience with them in terms of my other senses, and have had things happen that seen to have no other explanation).

People who experience lucid dreaming, sleep paralysis, and who meditate for years seem to have visions when raising their frequencies, so you may very well be onto something.

The ghost stories seem to imply entities that unaware of us to some degree, unless we specifically call out to them or get their attention. They seem a little oblivious. Then reportedly play cat and mouse once they realize they have been discovered.

Do others agree that the terminology we are using "ghosts" and "spirits", may in fact be two different things?



posted on Apr, 17 2010 @ 07:11 PM
link   
reply to post by Dock9
 


Then by my (somewhat sketchy) definitions, you have seen both a ghost, and a spirit. You described the ghost well, but notsomuch the spirit who had previous belongings in your home.

Was there a noticeable difference..?

What was your emotional state upon seeing these entities? Were you very frightened?



posted on Apr, 17 2010 @ 07:41 PM
link   

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
I'm wondering if perhaps we should establish at least a working definition of "ghosts" and "spirits". I believe they are two different entities.

Access Denied was leaning in this direction with her post.

Ghosts could be any number of things. Fragments of spirits, residual energy, people full of shame, or other negative preoccupations, who from fear are unable to move about or master other realms.

I see spirits (which I think the OP was primarily interested in? or maybe I'm mistaken) as those humans who have passed away, but have free will. They might come and go from our dimension at will. These might be our deceased relatives, dropping by to check on us, or to just to drop by to visit their old home, or bookcase, or wedding ring, or (you get the picture).

I like the idea of having "raised vibrational frequencies", and having the wall which separates us, become thinner for a moment. But in terms of the "spirits" as I have defined above, I think they might only be seen if they wish to be. Don't you? And it's not that often. Perhaps they are afraid of frightening us poor curious, earthbound humans.

I sense at times that my vibrations are higher..somehow, and yet, honestly, I have never seen either a ghost or a spirit. (Although I will not deny I'm not without experience with them in terms of my other senses, and have had things happen that seen to have no other explanation).

People who experience lucid dreaming, sleep paralysis, and who meditate for years seem to have visions when raising their frequencies, so you may very well be onto something.

The ghost stories seem to imply entities that unaware of us to some degree, unless we specifically call out to them or get their attention. They seem a little oblivious. Then reportedly play cat and mouse once they realize they have been discovered.

Do others agree that the terminology we are using "ghosts" and "spirits", may in fact be two different things?


Well my main focus about this thread is trying to define what 'ghosts' really are, how they become seen by people here in the physical realm, and everything that goes along with all of that.

I do understand that there are entities in the astral realm whom have passed on (which is where we will go when we die and wait until it is time to reincarnate), but I really don't know if there is spirits and ghosts... I think an entity is an entity is an entity... But that raises a lot of questions, which is why I made this thread, and so far I'm glad people are sharing their opinions it's helping me think about this stuff more opened minded.

Right now however I admit I'm very confused about all of this. My beliefs when it comes to spirituality make this hard for me to define (ghosts and all). In some ways I really don't know if I believe it's possible that there are the 'classic ghosts' that people say they see. They may in fact be seeing some entity from the astral realm, or some higher density whom has lowered their vibrational frequency. But then my question arises, why would an entity purposely lower their frequency? What would be their point in lowering their vibrational level enough to converse with us living in the physical realm we all live in right now? I mean we all set a plan ahead of time before being reincarnated, sometimes life takes us in a totally different direction and we end up dying and not learning what we came to learn. But I thought you'd just have to come back again and try it over, so that sort of kicks out the idea that an entity would come back to finish some business they left behind in their past life.

Ahh, this whole subject is just question after question. I'm hoping someone comes along and offers a good, plausible theory that resonates well with me.

And by the way Dock9 can't tell you what his emotional state was during his supposed experiences because he wasn't mentally 'there' when it happened. The way he put it, basically the spirit/ghost/entity whatever, took control of him in some way and he didn't remember anything even happening until much later (he said approx. 10hrs for the one experience...).



posted on Apr, 18 2010 @ 12:04 AM
link   

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
reply to post by Dock9
 


Then by my (somewhat sketchy) definitions, you have seen both a ghost, and a spirit. You described the ghost well, but notsomuch the spirit who had previous belongings in your home.

Was there a noticeable difference..?

What was your emotional state upon seeing these entities? Were you very frightened?



Hi

They were both life-like in appearance. Both male. Neither had visible legs below the knee-level

The second one (I later learned it's possessions were in our home) would be believed by 99 people out of 100 to be a living individual. He was in full colour. His hair shone where the light struck it. He had very good colouring in eyes, lips, skin, etc. You would even have noted the faint 5 o'clock shadow (beard regrowth) on his lower cheeks. He looked like a 'real' person standing there

He was calmly considering something further along the room. One hand was raised to the side of his face, the way people sometimes do when they're thinking, or if they're puzzled or confused

I was sitting on the sofa at the time in semi-light, drinking tea and thinking about things I had to attend to. So, I was just taking a break in between tasks. What might be termed a light meditative state ... same state we're in when we're reading or watching tv, etc.
Prior to making the tea, I'd been using the sewing machine and iron. They were less than 3 metres from where I sat. As soon as I finished my tea, I planned to put the iron and sewing machine, scissors, needles and pins etc. safely away in their usual cupboards, etc. I had two quite young children and I never left dangerous objects out where they could be attracted to them

Didn't hear the ghost 'arrive'. But when I turned my head from the items i planned to put away, there he was, standing on the other side of the room ( only a few metres away from me). He was standing next to a tall wall unit, as I say, studying something further along the wall from himself

No, I was not scared. This is the unusual thing. Most people and most tv 'ghost hunter' programmes claim it's all drama, with lowered temperatures and ghostly carryings-on. But that was not the case for me at all

I had no reactions, no fear, no sensation of shock. Which isn't how I'd imagine I would behave. Instead, I became, to all extents and purposes, a recording-device, apparently. I 'recorded' the ghost's presence in the same detail as one would --- in a court of law -- describe someone they'd seen in real life

Next day, I arose as usual, made the children's breakfast, did all the usual routine things. Took the children to school. Vacuumed the carpets, etc. etc. Shortly after 9 a.m., my friend arrived to collect me, as arranged. We loaded up her car and set off. While we were stationary at traffic lights, she leaned forward in her seat to adjust the car radio. At that moment, the events of the night before returned to me. It was then that I suffered the shock. I began relating out loud what had happened, re: the ghost.

My friend put the car in gear and began pulling away from the traffic lights. She turned to me and said, ' Can you hear what you're saying ?'. I continued speaking aloud, desribing the ghost, trying to make sense of what I was remembering

Later that morning, we arrived at the home of an older woman I'd met briefly only a couple of times before. We carried several items into her home, as previously arranged. Amongst them were several pairs of men's trousers. This was the sewing and ironing I'd been engaged in the night before. Teh older woman had initially asked my friend (the one with me) to do the work, but my friend wasn't much of a sewer and had pressured me to do the task. I hadn't wanted to, but I'd given in

The older woman told my friend and I that her recently-widowed daughter would be arriving soon, to stay with her parents during the last stage of her pregnancy. The daughter intended to remain with her parents for the foreseeable future, we were told

Then, the older woman told us that her daughter's husband had died suddenly, some months earlier. We were told that he'd spent the morning mowing the lawns and had taken a break on the verandah to cool off. He'd rested in a deck chair. His wife (the old woman's daughter) had taken a cool drink out for him, but he appeared to have fallen asleep. She decided not to disturb him. From inside the house, during the next few hours, she saw he was still asleep. Later, when it grew cooler, she placed a sweater over him. Later still, she went out to rouse him, because a storm was on the horizon. It was at this point she discovered him to be dead. Doctors told her later than he'd been dead for some hours, just sitting there and appearing as if he were asleep.

The older woman went into another room at that point and returned with a photo frame. She wanted to show her daughter to my friend. I leaned over to look at the photo. Closest to the photographer was the old woman's daughter, in her billowing white wedding dress. It was an informal photo, the wind was blowing and the bride and groom looked relaxed

Then I looked at the groom. I immediately recognised him as the man/ghost who'd appeared in my living room the night before. Same hair, same height, same face, even the same slight paunch. I whispered this to my friend who was sitting next to me. She jabbed me with her elbow and gave me a look to say, 'Shut up'

As we were leaving, the older woman walked alongside me. She was still talking about her daughter and deceased son in law (the man in the photo/the ghost in my house). She said that he'd died almost six months earlier, yet doctors had still not discovered the cause of h is death. She said his organs were still at the laboratory, undergoing further tests

Then, she said that the trousers I'd been working on the previous night (and which we'd just delivered to her) had belonged to her dead son-in-law. They'd been amongst items sent by the older woman's daughter to her parents, after her husband died

The older woman had pressured my friend (the one with me) to take up the trouser-hems a few inches, so that her own husband could wear them. My friend hadn't wanted to actually undertake the task and had afterwards pressured me to do it. Which is how I'd come to be sewing and pressing a stranger's trousers the night before, immediately prior to the apprearance of the ghost. And now I was being told that those trousers had belonged to the ghost, had been worn by the ghost, approx. 6 months earlier

After we left the old woman's house, I immediately tried to discuss the situation with my friend. She was the big 'ghost' fan, after all. She's the one who was always trying to get us to take part in impromptu seances and she was the one who was always claiming that her dead grandfather was contacting her at those seances, even though none of us could corroborate it. Yet now --- when confronted by a startling and genuine ghost appearance --- she turned to water. She refused to discuss it. She dropped me at my place and declined to come in for coffee, as she usually did. In fact, she was angry with me for some reason. Looking back now, and knowing her as I did (she's married to a family member) I think she was suffering mixed emotions of fear and envy and wanted to deny and conceal both.

I collected my children from school, had our little chats and made their afternoon-tea, then they went out to play in the yard. Made myself a cup of tea and tried to make sense of things. Got my tape measure and measured the height of the wall units. The man/ghost had been taller than they, as he stood next to them. The older woman had said her son in law was 'very tall' and taller than her husband (which is why the dead man's trousers needed to be shortened before the older woman's husband could wear them). The wall units were 182 cms. The ghost/man had been an inch or two taller. So yes, he'd been a tall man. And I'd seen him

Then, I stood where the man/ghost had stood. And I followed his eye-line down the wall, to try to work out what he'd been looking at so intently as she stood there. Only thing I could see was the first of the two chairs which sat either side of the sideboard. On that chair were two carboard cartons. In those cartons were a dead man's trousers, waiting for me to make them shorter. Those cardboard cartons had stayed on that chair during the weeks ince my friend had dropped them off with request that I do them, rather than her

So ... there it was. A man/ghost had found his way to my house, drawn by trousers he'd worn prior to dying. Like a homing pigeon, he'd been led to my house from his own previous home over 1,000 km away

The ghost and I had never met in life and it's highly doubtful we ever would have done. No wonder he was confused to find his posessions in the home of a stranger. What can we conclude from this, other than the dead man didn't realise he was dead ? And we must also conclude that after death, ghosts are unable to think clearly. Otherwise, surely the ghost would have remained with his widowed wife, or his parents ? Or instead of trying to make sense of his after- death state by tracking down his previous trousers, he'd have tracked down something of more personal association, such as trohies he might have won, or he might have chosen to remain in his old office or favourite chair, for example

My friend had jabbed me in the ribs to prevent my telling the older woman that I'd immediately recognised her son in law (in the wedding photo) as the man/ghost who'd appeared beore me the night before. My friend later said she hadn't wanted me to upset the woman. Cont.



posted on Apr, 18 2010 @ 12:45 AM
link   

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
reply to post by Dock9
 


Then by my (somewhat sketchy) definitions, you have seen both a ghost, and a spirit. You described the ghost well, but notsomuch the spirit who had previous belongings in your home.

Was there a noticeable difference..?

What was your emotional state upon seeing these entities? Were you very frightened?



Hi again



In my previous post, I outlined the situation and now the rest, which I didn't have room to include

I was taking a break on the sofa when the ghost appeared. I was drinking tea, thinking of what I needed to do next. Most important of these was the necessity to safely store away the sewing machine, scissors, needles, pins, iron, etc.

As already described, it was roughly at that juncture that the ghost appeared. And, in a state similar, I suppose, to suspended animation, my mind 'recorded' the ghost's presence in teh same way as would a video camera. This wa clearly committed to memory. And later that day, and ever since, I have had very clear and detailed recall of the ghost

Prior to seeing him, I had no knowledge of his existence, had never met him before, nor he me. I only learned of his existence the following day, from the older woman. And it was then that I saw him in a photo

I did not 'hear' the ghost arrive. Nor did I hear or see him 'depart'.

After seeing him from my position on the sofa, my next memory was of awaking the following day. To all outward appearances it was like any other day. Very busy early in the morninig, with the children. Then, I was hurrying around in expectation of my friend's arrival, after which she and I left

It was only whilst in the car with her that I suddenly remembered the ghost. That was shock enough. However, there was something of even greater concern to me, which is this ----- when I woke up that morning and began making the children's breakfast, the house was the same as always. Neat. Clean. No sign of the sewing machine or iron or ironing board, etc. In other words, all the things I'd been using immediately prior to seeing the ghost --- had been stored neatly away in their usual place

Also, after seeing the ghost, I had obviously gone to bed. Because I woke up in my usual night attire

Which means that after seeing the ghost, I had put away the sewing machine, had gathered the pins and needles and scissors and tape measures and tailor's chalk and the dozen other things I'd been using to mend the trousers. Same with the iron and pressing cloths and ironing board. All these items had their own storage place at various spots around the house.

Then, I had clearly prepared for bed, had brushed my teeth and face, changed my chothing, turned off the lights, etc. etc.

I could not remember doing any of this

In my initial post high in this thread, I said that I'd entered an 'altered mind' state re: the ghost

I can't know if this was induced by the ghost. Or if my mind did it to itself to protect me from shock to my nervous system. Most probably there is no-one who could make the determination, although of course some would have pet theories to explain ghosts' effects upon us. And then of course, it may be that we react diferently to ghosts in the same way there are different types of ghosts, all of which may have greater or lesser influence upon the minds of the living. It's a great unknown area, with most research seemingly concentrated on taking cameras into supposedly 'haunted' places for the entertainment of tv viewers

What I do know is that I remained in the altered-state during the time I carefully put away all the items I'd been using, so that my children would not hurt themselves if they got up earlier than I the next morning. In other words, despite my altered-state, I nevertheless stuck to my usual routine and continued to place my children's safety first. Then, again according to routine and despite my altered-state, I prepared for bed in the usual way

The fact I could not remember carrying out these tasks (yet nevertheless did do them) is, to me, the more alarming and 'sensational' aspect of the ghost appearance. Imagine a woman who was not normally conscious as result of a ghost sighting, moving around her own home late at night like a zombie, putting away large items, brushing her teeth ... all of it like a robot. Because her mind has been effectively 'knocked-out, turned-off, decommissioned' .. by a ghost. All while her two young children sleep nearby

That is alarming. That is disturbing. And if the ghost was responsible for putting me in that altered-state, zombiefied condition ---- then it's an invasion of our minds and lives. And we have good reason to distrust and even fear, ghosts. NOT because they go 'wooo .. wooooo' or float around in ridiculous sheets. No. That's nothing. The real threat is if they are able to mess with our minds and disrupt our physical and mental lives. If in fact they do so. As I say, it's possible my own mind is iteself responsible


The aftermath:

A few years ago, twenty or more years after this event, other memories of that night suddenly began to emerge. Maybe my mind felt it was safe for me to now look at them

In the new memories, the ghost/man did not (as I'd previously believed) content himself merely with staring at the box containinig his earlthy trousers

In teh new memory, the ghost interacted with me -- threateningly

In the new memory, I see myself sitting down tghere on the sofa, unmoving. And the ghost is poised, mid-spring. In other words, he is leaning forwards, one leg extended and bent at the knee, the other out straightish, behind him, for balance. His arms are extended outward, towards me. And his hand are bent, like claws, stretching in my direction

From above him, I see he has a balding spot at the top back. I did not see this detail from my original memory whilst sitting on the sofa

So it seems the ghost was not as benign as I believed him to be for the first 20 years after I saw him

And only after the second lot of memories emerged, did I begin to understand how and why I was placed in such a deep altered state by the experience. Because on several occasions, when very frightened, I've 'left my body' and gone up into the air. On those occasions, I see things from two perspectives simiultaneously: one from the position of my physical body and the other from my position high above

Apparently, my mind allowed me to remember the first position the day after I saw the ghost. That is, I remembered seeing him from my position on the sofa. But the other memories .. those seen from above ... were withheld from me by my mind for over 20 years.

In the ghost's defence, he was behaving normally in being angry and threatening towards me. After all, he probably didn't realise he was dead. And he would have been struggling to understand things via his disintegrating mind. So he must have been afraid and confused, and took it out on the person (myself) who had the hide to have his trousers and to be cutting them and making them shorter

Should add that I never saw that ghost again, after that night. So maybe he worked things out



posted on Apr, 18 2010 @ 07:14 AM
link   
reply to post by highlyoriginal
 



But then my question arises, why would an entity purposely lower their frequency? What would be their point in lowering their vibrational level enough to converse with us living in the physical realm we all live in right now?



Because they wish to. Spiritualists believe that in the different realms, the higher ones are able to briefly visit the lower ones (they might not wish to stay long), but for whatever personal reasons they might have to do so, they apparently do. This does not work both ways. The spirits who are in lower realms, are not able to visit those who have passed away, and are in higher realms.

It seems to occur much less than I would think...which makes me wonder if the visitations (from the newly passed, etc. to their remaining loved-ones, is not somehow discouraged). Even though they retain free will, and can make this decision if they choose.

We all have questions concerning this fascinating subject, and sometimes I think it's based on faith. But there are other supporting documents....Spirits and ghosts are even mentioned in the Bible, which indicates their documentation goes back a long, long way.

Naturally there is not a cut and dried answer to your questions. But it is interesting to hear the beliefs and experiences of others. They all add infomation to a perplexing subject.



posted on Apr, 18 2010 @ 07:32 AM
link   
reply to post by Dock9
 


Fascinating story, Dock9. I loved it, and thanks so much for all the detail...It felt like I was there.

I've been reading about spirits/ghosts for close to a decade now. One of the things that strikes me as interesting about your encounter, is the time frame of "close to six months" following his death.

When someone has died, and they want to make contact with a living person, it usually occurs within 72 hours following the passing. Following that, the next time period is SIX months of death. So, I found his appearance in keeping with the time frames I have studied about.

Of course, that's interesting in and of itself. There might not be a peep out of a deceased person, and then suddenly after twenty years, they show up glowing, apparently deliberately permitting you to see them for a moment.

Because it was such a short time following his passing, it sounds like he was still in a state of confusion. He might even have tracked down his clothing wondering what he would wear, if he didn't have them. I do wonder what kind of man he was. Something about the circumstances seems to imply that he didn't cross over well.

Or..maybe because he died so suddenly he was having difficulty accepting it. I think this is the type person who has the potential to become a "ghost". (By my definitions).

The fact that you continued about your nightly routine, but didn't remember it the next day, is also interesting. I honestly tend to think it was your mind's way of protecting you. Keep the experience at bay until you could process it without going into a state of panic. You even used the word "shock", and it does sound like that was exactly the case.

Anyway "the pants" story is now one of my favorites. Thank you for sharing it.



posted on Apr, 18 2010 @ 07:41 AM
link   
reply to post by Monts
 


Wow. Just wow. Fantastic story! And I also appreciated your interpretations of it. I couldn't agree more.

Since the father and others were telling her to enter the light, and a while thereafter she stopped appearing, maybe she took them up on their suggestion. The fact that she might have heard them, understood their suggestions and followed-through with it, is interesting in and of itself.



posted on Apr, 18 2010 @ 08:24 AM
link   
Highlyoriginal, I have a question for you. I notice you have "spiritualist" on your avatar. Yet, here you seem to question even the existence of spirits, (way beyond how they might materialize, and for what purpose).

I'm finding a slight incongruence with this, and wondering if you could shed some light on what you mean. Most spiritualists base their entire belief system on the notion that once we die, we just simply pass over into another realm.....the spirit realm.

Yet here, you appear to question these very postulates.

While I don't consider myself a spiritualist per se, I do find the beliefs meritorious and plausible (I tend to find life after death more complicated), but yet I found both Dock's and Mont's experiences very much in keeping with the spiritualist's beliefs of these entity's possible behaviors.

Many stories I tend to have questions and doubts about, but it just so happens there were two stories here on this same thread, that were very believable.

So, I ask you. As a Spiritualist, why do you find it difficult to believe that spirits might present themselves to those incarnate?

Or for that matter...even exist at all?



posted on Apr, 18 2010 @ 09:26 AM
link   
I dislike the term ghosts, because it comes with too many preconceptions of what this phenomena is supposed to be. It's trying to put the round peg in the square hole. I prefer Ben Eno's theory of parasitical entities over on BehindTheParanormal.com.

Of course I believe that waking reality is a dream (albeit a stable one), and having some experience with hell realms in the dream state, I tend to believe death is also a dream state. Not sure really sure how that leaves room for the possibility of human ghosts in our world, but it doesn't rule it out.

It may not be necessary for so called ghosts to lover their vibrational rate. They could instead raise the vibrational rate of living people through by inducing intense emotions. This could be done through fear, or love by emulating a departed loved one.

According to Ben Eno's parasite theory, these entities feed off of emotional energy, or perhaps require it to manifest. One of the more interesting theories I've heard of late is that ritualized human sacrifices are designed to extract the maximum amount of human emotional response both from the victim and the participants.

While listening to Ben Eno on Coast to Coast one night, he was describing how these entities manifest. First comes a knocking or banging, which becomes more intense until it evokes an emotional response from the observer. Just as I was listening to that, I hear thee clear knocks on an empty card board box beside my bed. Luckily, I knew better than to focus on it and just ignored it.

The scenario he described for these things manifesting matched my rules of dream control, which I believe apply as much to the waking world as they do in dreams.

1. Everything requires your attention to exist

The initial knocking captures your attention

2. The more attention you give something, the more related detail it creates.

After having captured your attention, your focused attention on it causes the knocking or banging to grow in intensity and complexity.

3. Strong emotions are a powerful force for shaping your surroundings or reality.

The increase in the inexplicable phenomena causes a heightened emotion reaction in the observer. If things escalate to this point, it's going to be tough getting rid of your ghosts.




top topics



 
7
<<   2 >>

log in

join