Revelation; 4 Horsemen-Why?

reply to post by DISRAELI


And yet when you refuse to name names or put a date on things, you are implicitly endorsing the 2012 hysteria.

reply to post by jcrash

I thought I was doing the opposite; leaving it open for events to be in the more distant future.
And as I told another poster recently, when he tried to sell me "Christ will return at the end of May", there simply isn't time this year for the events of Revelation to find fulfilment.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by jcrash

 

I thought I was doing the opposite; leaving it open for events to be in the more distant future.
And as I told another poster recently, when he tried to sell me "Christ will return at the end of May", there simply isn't time this year for the events of Revelation to find fulfilment.

That's exactly the problem. To say that Revelations will always be some time off in the distant future just doesn't jive with many people's understanding of things (whether that is correct or not). They watch the news, step into the unemployment line, queue up for a soup kitchen, or whatever, and have a clear understanding/ point of view that things are collapsing.

Things are collapsing (ostensibly), "Armageddon"'s on the horizon, and you want to insist that 2012 is not the end of the world? (I don't think it is either...)

I'll be honest, I am getting frustrated with this commonplace attitude that "we can't know the day" so don't try to pin it down. All this nebulous exposition does is bolster the 2012 propagandists.

How do you plan to counter this? Or does this not bother you? To be fair, it isn't necessarily your "job" to be a "date setter". If that is not what you are called to do, then that's how it is, and that's ok. I'm just curious about your position.

Originally posted by jcrash
That's exactly the problem. To say that Revelations will always be some time off in the distant future just doesn't jive with many people's understanding of things

The trouble is that I can't write on Revelation in conformity with other people's understandings, only with my own.

How do you plan to counter this? Or does this not bother you? ... I'm just curious about your position.

I'm juggling two possible threads in my mind at the moment; one on date-setting, one specifically on 2012.
The first one was nearly worked out in my mind yesterday, but I didn't get it down on paper in time.

My position is that Revelation is not about "predicting the end of the world" as such, but about offering encouragement to a persecuted church, by assuring them that the end will not be long delayed after the persecution has begun.
This means that Revelation doesn't actually become relevant, or come into operation, until the persecution has started.

It's like having an assurance from the police that they will arrive at your house ten minutes after a burglar breaks in.
Fine and dandy; but it means that you can't predict when they're going to arrive, because you don't know when the burglars are coming.
(I like this one. I think I might use it when I get that thread re-started).

reply to post by jcrash

P.S. On "approaching Armageddon", see the end of "Four horsemen-how?" and other places where I concede some plausibility in the idea that the catastrophe of Revelation ch6 might be on the horizon (war, plague, famine).
If we're going to get any "fulfilment of Revelation" in the near future, that's where it will be.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
I want to offer some thoughts on the "4 Horsemen" episode in Revelation ch6.

Instead, I'm posing the question; why would God be sending them? What are they supposed to be for?

The most important clue, I think, lies in those horses. Four of them, different colours. As a group, they've got predecessors, in a couple of chapters of Zechariah. I'm sure the Christians of John's time would have recognised the echoes, and they would have been reading this chapter in the light of what Zechariah said. I'm hoping to do the same thing.

Obviously Zechariah was writing, in the first instance, for the people of his own time, so we have to think about that side of things first. The most important point about the background of Zechariah's book is the problem of "other nations". Judah had been invaded by the Assyrians in the past, they had been conquered by the Babylonians, and now they were living as part of the mighty Persian empire. That's why the dates are in the name of Darius, and not one of their own kings.

A group of horses, different colours. The first group we find is in Zechariah ch1. They've been out patrolling the earth (so somebody tells the prophet), and the report they bring back is that "all the earth remains at rest". This prompts an outburst from the angel of the Lord, complaining about the contrasting state of Judah themselves. They are not "at rest", because they've been feeling the effects of the Lord's anger. The Lord responds with comforting words; he says that he is "jealous" on behalf of Jerusalem, and also "very angry with the nations that are at rest".

In the first instance, we should be looking for parallels in the time when John was writing. Church tradition mentions great perscutions in the reigns of Nero and Domitian. Between those times, hostile action against the church was not constant, but there was always the pressure of the possibility of hostile action. Meanwhile, the "Roman Peace" of the Empire at large (outside the immediate vicinity of the Imperial palace) has become proverbial. The episode of the 4 Horsemen would then have been read by the church as a promise that God would respond to their troubles, and that he would take action against their oppressors.

If we want to apply this passage as prophecy, then we should surely, once again, be looking out for similar parallels.
That is to say, the c

George Orwell's book showed us with the thought police. That is four horseman type of of territory if you are a christian like myself, who believes that the tribulation is going to occur probably soon.

Probably going to be a martial law where the cabal is giving us the pantheon of the new age technologies that have been bought with tax trillions during these engineered depressions. Oh yeah, swine flu the empire is going to make its visit and assault on the rest of us and black helicopters would dare anyone to try and interfere with the expectation of one world government. That is the delusion of profit in today's culture of corporations, bunch of lunatics in government are going with the regimes of the "Persians" today. We are covered with a bubble that lets in only a small amount of light (the truth) and having to find real truth is hard and sources can be muddy like concrete. "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes." (the British empire) has the characteristics of the Assyrians and the Persians (mostly the Persians) in that they want to have the planet.

reply to post by MarkScheppy

You should note that there is a distinct interval between the events of the "Four Horsemen" catastrophe and the tribulation proper, so they are really two different things.
The interval begins when destruction is halted at the beginning of chapter 7, and ends when the trumpets start blowing in chapter 8.
The kind of scenario that you're thinking about really belongs to the tribulation,
I've suggested in a number of places that the Four Horsemen catastrophe sets up the chaos which makes the world more willing to welcome the power and authority of the Beast, so there's a cause-and-effect relationship between them.
My thoughts on what the Four Horsemen episode would actually look like come in the sequel thread;
Four Horsemen- How?

Originally posted by MarkScheppy
(the British empire) has the characteristics of the Assyrians and the Persians (mostly the Persians) in that they want to have the planet.

By the way, the British empire went out of existence about fifty years ago.
It is not currently attempting to rule the planet.

For that matter, no power currently dominating the planet is actually persecuting the church, which is the parallel we need to be looking for.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
By the way, the British empire went out of existence about fifty years ago.
It is not currently attempting to rule the planet.

For that matter, no power currently dominating the planet is actually persecuting the church, which is the parallel we need to be looking for.

The gamble you are saying the British empire doesn't exist and yet the monarchy tells people what to do in the UK and the entire politics of the middle east are based on oil and treaties made by the empire and companies. The church persecuted itself by going corporate preaching the gospel of money.

The Obama chanting that was cult-like really began the phase of the end-times that are about to occur, the Church does not teach the gospel (again the Empire influence.) My god just about all our Congress people and elected officials should be in jail and look at how crooked wallstreet is.

Originally posted by MarkScheppy
...and yet the monarchy tells people what to do in the UK

A lot of Americans seem to have this fantasy, but it doesn't actually happen, you know.

The church persecuted itself by going corporate preaching the gospel of money.

In Revelation, there are people going to prison, and even being beheaded, for refusal to abandon worship of the Creator God. When I say "persecution", I mean real persecution.

Originally posted by autowrench
A simple theory here. If the Dark Star called Nibiru, Blue Star, Wormwood, Destructor, and many other names comes, and I think it will, it will be dragging along some Moons, or at least Moonlets. These could pass really close or even impact the Earth as the Dark Star passes by Earth in it's passing through this system. Say for a minute there are Four Moons
(Horsemen) that will give much trouble to Earth. This could be what the ancient man was attempting to say when he wrote the original words down on parchment. Makes sense, doesn't it?

And then the bigfoots will come out of the caves from hollow earth where they live in peace with the advanced race of descendents of Lemuria. The mayans are there too having a ball. The Subterrans at Los Alamos are constantly scraping bits of sasquatch hair when drilling those tunnels because every once in a while they tunnel through a cavern where the brutes live.

The moons of Nibiru are they like flavors of ice cream, one is the chocolate moon, the other is blueberry/vanilla, and one is too radiated by inner core of the Dark star and so that is where they put the chocobos. Hard to believe that only one hundred and fifty years ago a president was delivering the Gettsyburg address to a nation about how human beings are immortal, and today it is fear-mongering or mourning the death of a drug addict in hollywood.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by MarkScheppy

 

You should note that there is a distinct interval between the events of the "Four Horsemen" catastrophe and the tribulation proper, so they are really two different things.
The interval begins when destruction is halted at the beginning of chapter 7, and ends when the trumpets start blowing in chapter 8.
The kind of scenario that you're thinking about really belongs to the tribulation,
I've suggested in a number of places that the Four Horsemen catastrophe sets up the chaos which makes the world more willing to welcome the power and authority of the Beast, so there's a cause-and-effect relationship between them.
My thoughts on what the Four Horsemen episode would actually look like come in the sequel thread;
Four Horsemen- How?

That video on youtube though of the egyptian riots and that ghostly green apparition that looks like a man on a horse sends the chills if you are a believer or not a believer. Quickly non-believers are like that is a lens (pun: A-liens) reflection!, but yeah the times that you speak of the episode is today. And Gingrich says that "God is not a space octopus," maybe these people will soon see the real god!

Originally posted by DISRAELI

I'm juggling two possible threads in my mind at the moment; one on date-setting, one specifically on 2012.
The first one was nearly worked out in my mind yesterday, but I didn't get it down on paper in time.

My position is that Revelation is not about "predicting the end of the world" as such, but about offering encouragement to a persecuted church, by assuring them that the end will not be long delayed after the persecution has begun.
This means that Revelation doesn't actually become relevant, or come into operation, until the persecution has started.

It's like having an assurance from the police that they will arrive at your house ten minutes after a burglar breaks in.
Fine and dandy; but it means that you can't predict when they're going to arrive, because you don't know when the burglars are coming.

Sunni and Shia), that is the blueprint for how they are going to divide and conquer the western countries. A monetary system is going to put us ultimately a one world government of alien robots who are subservient to a super government that has plans for depopulation and never ending war. Arrive ten minutes after a burglar breaks, that is some fast promptness. Most cops don't put forth too much trouble or much of an effort. They'd have innocent people dress in orange (the prison inmate color.)

reply to post by MarkScheppy

The "date-setting" thread predicted in that quoted comment is now up and running on this forum.

Tie in the book of Genesis and Babel with the prophets and then the wrath of God in revelation and how 2012 falls in there. Do it with a Sauron voice (that's scaly.)

Language enclasps, more than anything else in men, the whole species.

It's a big fakery. Only a rare minority of independent thinkers actually exist in any society to date. They're extremely rare. "I go to church!"

knowledgefiles.com...

The apocalypse unsealed - James-m-Pryse

This book was written in 1910 and discusses the symbolic meaning of the apocalypse, the zodiac , much of the symbolism in old culture and much much more. It's available for free and legal download.

Whoever mentioned the Chakras might want to read these quotes too:

When the Lamb opens one of the seals, one of the
^our Zoa thunders, "Come!" A white horse appears,
its rider having a bow. This is Sagittarius,
the Bowman or Archer. loannSs thus starts the
kundalini current at the second chakra, and correctly
so, for the sushumnd does not energize until
Ida and pingala have reached the forehead, and
then it starts from the first centre, corresponding
to the terminus of the spinal cord. He therefore
avoids calling this the first seal, but says, "one of
the seals," and then numbers the others merely in
the order in which they are opened.
The second seal being opened, the second Zoon
says, "Come!" A red horse comes forth; to its
rider is given a great sword, and power to take
The Apocalyptic Zodiac

THE DRAMA OF SELF-CONQUEST 43
away peace from the earth. This is Scorpio, the
house of Mars, the War-God.
Upon the opening of the third seal, the third
Zoon says, "Come!" A black horse appears, its
rider having a balance in his hand. This is. Libra,
the Balance.
When the fourth seal is opened, the fourth Z6on
says, "Come!" A "pale" (chWros, "yellowish")
I
horse comes forth, and its rider is Death, accompanied
by Had6s; they are given power over one
quarter of the earth, to kill with sword, famine and
death, and by the wild beasts of the earth. This
is Virgo, the astrological sign of the womb. In the
New Testament, as in the Upanishads and other
mystical literature, "Death" is the name very fre-
[quently applied to the physical, generative world,
in which birth, decay and death hold sway. In her
'character of the bad virgin, "a queen and not a
widow,"

From the book linked in my last post.

Originally posted by MarkScheppy
Arrive ten minutes after a burglar breaks, that is some fast promptness. Most cops don't put forth too much trouble or much of an effort.

Speed of response had to be assumed to make the analogy work properly.
I think we're entitled to expect God to be more reliable than a human policeman.

My response to the claims made about the year 2012 was that I could see no prophetic significance in the date.
This position seems to have been vindicated.

A group of horses, different colours. The first group we find is in Zechariah ch1. They've been out patrolling the earth (so somebody tells the prophet), and the report they bring back is that "all the earth remains at rest". This prompts an outburst from the angel of the Lord, complaining about the contrasting state of Judah themselves. They are not "at rest", because they've been feeling the effects of the Lord's anger. The Lord responds with comforting words; he says that he is "jealous" on behalf of Jerusalem, and also "very angry with the nations that are at rest".

What does Daniel mean when he says the final world ruler will honor only a "god of fortresses? What is that? And God said, "Let there be light," come on mayans the sun's getting lower, the world is about to end.

Do not harm the oil and the wine, the rich and over weight Americans. Paul Bagley, What? The Greed of the rich industrial countries are catching up to us the ravens and birds all appear to be anticipating the Mark of the Beast slaughter. A group of horses different colors (eenk..sound of a wrong answer)

They are not "at rest" because they've been .. like the Lukewarm church at Laodicia.