If a police officer attacks you for no reason, what can you do?

Keep a tape recorder handy and video and still camera. Do not put the window down more than a small amount and lock the doors. Get on a cell phone and let the cop know that you are on the phone. If you don't have someone to talk to pretend you do and state you are talking with your legal adviser. You can even say lawyer. Take a picture of them and if you have a cell phone camera take a picture with the camera and send or appear to send it the picture. State clearly you do not recognize to cop as a lawful authority. Demand the cops name, badge #, bond #, supervisors name. When they comply with it repeat the information over the phone. Continue this demand until they comply. Do not get out of the car. If the cop calls for assistance then you have those cops as possible witnesses. Honk the horn to get attention. Ask then to prove there is a law. When you get stopped drive onto private property. They can't tow you car off of private property.

The bottom line is you have to play the dominance game and make it clear that you are not submissive to them and subject to their authority and jurisdiction. Once you take charge and require them to comply with your DEMANDS for proof of identity, authority and law, the cop is in a different world than the one they expect and are trained to cultivate for their fraud and extortion practices. Keep the conversation to a minimum. Don't allow them to make demand until you have established authority. Stand your ground. Be polity and nice. The goal isn't to escalate the situation but put it into it's true perspective.

Imagine you own a company. You hire a guy to work for you in security and one day they come to your office and hand you a "citation" and state it's because the new policy says if an employee is five minutes late to work it's a crime with a fine of $100. What do you do? It's your company, what do you do? You fire the SOB. Now why do you think you are obligated to accept authority and fictional laws of someone you hired. The "Government", the "Constitution", are created BY THE PEOPLE. The Government, Policy workers are employees. They aren't the owners, WE THE PEOPLE are the owners.

Note: The EricWhoRU approach is much different but apparently works for him. That is to get out of the car with the paperwork in hand, lean against the car (non-threatening) and chat with them about why they think they would have any authority. Use reason like the above.

Either way, the key is to treat them as human beings but not allow them to use their fraud tactics of lies and domination. If your in the car and the cop tries to insist you role down the window tell them that you legal adviser insists you do not lower the window and that the cop comply with your initial domains first. You are the boss, they are hired to protect and serve not to be a profit center for an extortion racket run be employees of fictions like government.

reply to post by ReelView


Reel you may want to rethink your approach...read case law and NOT give such bad advice. Some of what you say is fine and won't be a problem, but some of the other things you suggest will get you locked up, and not even by an *snip* cop, simply by one following proper criminal precedure of a traffic stop.

Again...know case law and actual lawful procedure before giving advice.

Mod Note: Do Not Evade the Automatic Censors – Please Review This Link.

[edit on Sat Apr 17 2010 by DontTreadOnMe]

ReelView

"We the People" as a whole have the ability to make changes, you the individual do not have the ability to 'decline' the authority of the law.

Because of the nature of your statement, I can only guess that you mean if the police officer is actively trying to attack you at the beginning of the stop?

I guess if the officer ran up to your car and started trying to pull you out over just a traffic stop, you would be within your bounds to think that it was an "illegal arrest."

I'm sure this is what you must of meant because if not what you are saying is very irrational. Ya, if a police officer rushes your car on a plain 'traffic stop' and you know you don't have a warrant or something that would make him react like that, you might try pretending to have the lawyer on the phone but I'd be wary, I haven't asked my step dad about it but police officers see all sorts of # all the time and they've probably seen people talking to their "lawyer" on the phone before you.

If you believe the cop is being irrational call 911 and put it on speaker phone as fast as you can. If he draws a gun on you, be quiet, answer his commands, and do as he says. You will not be able to pull out your own method of self defense before he can react if he already has his gun pointing out you.

Please don't ever do what you said, you could end up in a lot of trouble for something you believed was your right to do and that would be pretty horrible.

reply to post by rcwj1975


A few observations.

1. The arrogance and corrective nature of this rcwj1975 coincides with him being a local LEO.

2. To the contrary, the amount of info he shares and time he spends on this site contradicts the notion that he is in fact a LEO. For if he was, he would be in direct violation of many rules set forth by LE, thus increasing his chances at being fired, and/or worse, being prosecuted.

3. His story of talking with Feds about this site, leads one to reasonably think:
A. If in fact he is a LEO, he himself is now under "the microscope" as a potential threat because of his undisciplined nature, and his fed "friend" is simply using him to reel in any other undisciplined LEO's using this site.
B. If he is in fact NOT a LEO, well, lol, than he is just one crazy mofo.

All in all, a wise man speaks very little and claims to know even less, for he is too busy listening and learning to claim he knows the truth. Of course it should also be said, that most LEO's I have encountered, aren't the wisest of men. So maybe he is a LEO, but my instinct's say he is not.

just my .02

ps. There is no way to create or find peace, for peace is the only way.

Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy
reply to post by rcwj1975

 

A few observations.

1. The arrogance and corrective nature of this rcwj1975 coincides with him being a local LEO.

Nah, thats a quality of many forum posters! See? I just did it!

I think he is a leo, but then again, I tend to give the benefit of the doubt. Thats not the topic though.

I have been goeded by police before, to physically attack, but obviously did not. The cop expressed his desire to "lay into" me and gave me the ol' "we're gonna put you in a room with big bubba" rape threat. I learned that night to NEVER engage police in any dialogue, they get their kicks that way if you won't physically resist. They enjoy seeing people they can percieve as "bad" (me having some pot) in distress. Say nothing, don't pee in a cup, don't do a thing!

Nothing like a strip search and spreading you're cheeks for two smiling cops just for having a small amount of cannabis! Land of the free indeed!

Yeah, yeah, bad apples blah blah blah.

[edit on 17-4-2010 by SmokeandShadow]



[edit on 17-4-2010 by SmokeandShadow]

Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy
A few observations.

1. The arrogance and corrective nature of this rcwj1975 coincides with him being a local LEO.

For the sake of not arguing with you on my weekend off I'll take this as a compliment... Especially considering you obviously read NOTHING about me, prior posts, etc...but thats ok, knee JERK reactions are the norm for SOME around here.

2. To the contrary, the amount of info he shares and time he spends on this site contradicts the notion that he is in fact a LEO. For if he was, he would be in direct violation of many rules set forth by LE, thus increasing his chances at being fired, and/or worse, being prosecuted.

Last I checked, how I or anyone spends my time is noone's business. Sorry my time management skills are better than yours. As for rules set forth by LE, what are you a criminal justice student? LE doesn't make rules to dictate officer behavior, DEPARTMENTAL POLICY does...and NO POLICY prevents us from doing anything I have done on this site. You post pictures in department uniforms, in vehicles, on the job, etc...NOW your breaking SOP. So as for you having any idea what your talking about...you don't.

3. His story of talking with Feds about this site, leads one to reasonably think:
A. If in fact he is a LEO, he himself is now under "the microscope" as a potential threat because of his undisciplined nature, and his fed "friend" is simply using him to reel in any other undisciplined LEO's using this site.
B. If he is in fact NOT a LEO, well, lol, than he is just one crazy mofo.

My reaction to option A: hahahahahahahaha....thats some funny paranoid stuff

My reaction to option B: My LEO status was confirmed long ago by a VERY trusted MOD, who verified it because of information I wanted to share. So sorry to burt your bubble but yes I am a sworn LEO and have been for 9 years.

All in all, a wise man speaks very little and claims to know even less, for he is too busy listening and learning to claim he knows the truth. Of course it should also be said, that most LEO's I have encountered, aren't the wisest of men. So maybe he is a LEO, but my instinct's say he is not.

You watch to many movies. A wise man teaches and shares his knowledge to those willing to learn for the RIGHT reasons. Just because my history is something I am very proud of (military, private security, and now LE), doesn't mean you stay hush hush. If I was a CIA spy at some point sure...I wouldn't announce that, but what is wrong with someone who has real world experiance sharing their knowledge? Should I cancel al my firearms instructing classes? Should I not teach DT's to other officers? Should I never speak of my military background when it releates to the topics or talks at hand? I am curious of your answer...especially on a site that has very little experiance from THIS SIDE of the fence? As for your instincts...I'll sum that up for you...it should be spelled inSTINKS...because yours are WAY off. Have a good night...oh and this is the benefit of 12 hour shifts...plenty of time off to respond to awesome ATS members...

This would cost money, but I would hire a good attorney who has private eye contacts and get the cop in question covertly investigated for an evidence gathering mission.. might or might not be worth it though..

reply to post by rcwj1975


I completely understand what you are saying. Of course, some police officers can be real a-holes and get their kicks from playing mind games on their suspects. But the majority of those I have met and personally know, they are really good people.

They have told me that many times its the suspect or person they stop that starts to act up and acts cocky or beligerent. After all the years of putting up with uncooperative people or mouthy people like that, they just react in kind. They have seen it all and know what to expect.

Luckly I never mouth off or anything and try to be as polite as I can, and (knock on wood) the police so far have always treated me with respect as well. Even when once there was a misunderstanding where I was with my brother and friend running down the street jogging and throwing snowballs at each other, and a squad car pulled up behind us, and we didnt notice until we jogged into my friends backyard. We heard the officer drive into the alley after us, so we just stepped out and asked what happened. After the officers told us what was up, we told him our side and everything was smoothed out no problem. They were wondering why we were jogging like that @ 11:00PM in the middle of winter when it was like 20F and about a foot of snow on the ground. They had a good laugh when we told them there are less stupid people out and we can walk around without getting harassed by a-holes. They just checked our ID's and after a friendly chat, they dove off. No problem! Very profesional those guys. Could have been worse if we started to behave beligerent and argued or ran from them. We almost got in trouble when ran into my friend's yard without realizing they were behind us (no lights on) and they pulled into the alley after us but it was all good. That is some proffesional work, the CPD.

I can understand when a police officer is mad at a suspect that just nearly killed him by shooting at him, or nearly running him over, or even putting a lot of innocent people in danger during a chase. To be honest, I dont care if the cops beat the hell out of the suspect for that. In my eyes he deserved it. Some people do need to be taught a lesson. Using force on a subject like that is a-ok with me. But beating the crap out of a suspect for no real reason is a no-no.

Thank you for your input on this rcwj1975!

reply to post by GenRadek


You should always have a video camera in your car with a charged battery. Have your wife, friend, etc. if there in the car with you begin filming as soon as you're pulled over.

I know that this sounds rather paranoid or extreme but it is about our only recourse now. Other members here have suggested that you move yourself in front of the cop's front dash video camera. This is step two if the cop begins making hostile body language or threatening overtures.

Once out of the car you need to make statements out loud that are clear and direct such as- "Officer you have requested that I show you my identification and I am making every concious effort to comply with your demand." Or "Officer with all do respect you do not have the legal authority to tell me to put my face in sidewalk gutter drain."

Also, if things begin to escalate, put your hands in the air. Not your pockets. Your palms should be facing the officer to give you a surrendered posture. If your hands are up in the air than they can be used to cover your face/head quickest if the night stick or baton starts swinging. Or they can be used to do other things. Use your imagination here.

At this point, all is not lost if you must defend yourself. If your fit and strong like me and you've covered all of your bases with supporting compliant evidence than you may defend yourself. They are not as tuff as they like to think that they are. Believe me, I know this first hand.

Here is just one example of many that I know. A friend of mine was present when a cop decided to tell his father to halt so that he could question him, along the course of the conversation the cop decided to slap his father across the face. Deciding that he would not tolerate such a heinous arrogant display of nonwarrented violence against his own father he hauled off and knocked that Sheriff Deputy out. He went to jail for a couple of days but whas exhonerated and the Deputy got reprimanded. If it would have been my father than the Deputy would have been punched just as hard I assure you.

What I am saying here is you do not have to lay down and play possum in all situations. In most cases, yes, you should just make the cop accountable in court. But not all. Especially if you have those video cameras working for you and not against you. You will just have to listen to your inner voice. Being a black belt in the arts you should know all about what I'm talking about here. If that voice tells you not to take it then fight. If it tells you to take it then submit. Either way, those video cameras are going to be your best friends in court. And above all it is NOT a hopeless situation when the gorillas decide to act like them.

The main thing is to start filming them as soon as possible. They are filming you so why not protect yourself in the evidence category as well?

You can get decent video camera's off of EBAY for $50 -$200 respectavely.

Originally posted by GenRadek
reply to post by ziggy1706

 

I understand completely what you are saying. That is why I am trying to gingerly have this thread not go overboard with the ultimate bad scenario of killing the cop. I do know the law is very much agianst you if you kill a police officer. And double bad is what his co-workers will do to you if they get their hands on you! That is why I am trying to see if there is any sort of way to protect myself in this case!

Also we have to deal with the problem of your word vs the officer's. Who will they listen to? Imagine if you are attacked, and you manage to bring the officer down in an arm-lock, headlock, chokehold, tasering him, or standing over him with his own gun keeping him down, and his backup arrives. Who's in trouble now?

It's a sad state of affairs if we can't act out in self defense when being assaulted by those who's job is supposed to uphold the law. In my opinion, this country is a sad sad sad demented and unjust place and we need to do what we did before. Civil War II. The government and justice system are corrupt and they need to remember that us citizens govern THEM, not the other way around like they think. The constitution is on our side. Let's use it and teach those good for nothing ingrates a lesson.

Well - how about we take a specific case?

The case of the article and vid in the OP. Where the guy is on his knees, hands behind his head and the officer starts whomping on him.

He kind of kept knelling there and taking his beating. He did try to cover his head a bit (is this resisting)? It might be called survival instinct too?

Should he have went prone on the ground? That would be putting a lot of trust in the officer. He would basically be giving the officer a clear shot at the back of his head - and based on the officer's actions would he have any reason to think the officer would not have taken it?

So what should this guy have done? He basically just knelt there and took his beating till his brother came out - and then got prone.

Its one of those things - until the vid came out the guy in the OP was the one in trouble.

In cases where there are multiple cops around and vids rolling. Ever see one cop stop another officer from hitting someone?

Are the people here right - I'm asking specifically in a case like the vid and story in the OP - is it best just to take your beating, hope you live through it and pray vid is rolling somewhere?

reply to post by Frogs

Are the people here right - I'm asking specifically in a case like the vid and story in the OP - is it best just to take your beating, hope you live through it and pray vid is rolling somewhere?

We have an inalienable right to defend ourselves against any bodily harm acted upon us by anyone, even if it's the president. No one person has a lick of a right to beat anyone unprovoked. If a cop beats you, hits you with a taser or pepper sprays you, give him what he deserves... Your full undivided attention.

Originally posted by sirnex

We have an inalienable right to defend ourselves against any bodily harm acted upon us by anyone, even if it's the president. No one person has a lick of a right to beat anyone unprovoked. If a cop beats you, hits you with a taser or pepper sprays you, give him what he deserves... Your full undivided attention.

While i agree completely that people have the right to defend themselves from anyone, consider the implications of doing so against a police officer. If you give that a go then you'll probably end up being shot in the USA. If you do it in the UK then you'll be sprayed and beaten and put in prison for a good long while. The courts trust the police, their testimony carries more weight than the person who is on the stand being prosecuted for assaulting a police officer.

The police know this as well. Don't get me wrong there are plenty of decent, hard working, law abiding officers. Then there are those who joined the police because they like bullying people and having power over them.

reply to post by GenRadek


2 Answers for I have been attacked and tased by multiple police before and they felt since they were behind a badg it was ok (AND I ASKED THEM-DO YOU THINK GOD LIKES WHAT HE SEES?- AND THEY SAID DONT TALK TO ME ABOUT YOUR RELIGION W/O EVEN KNOWING WHICH RELIGION I REPRESENTED LOL),

answer 1.
If I was attacked in an open area where there are witnesses I must let them do me bad and harm me so that I can go through the legal system and fight them with laywers, taking money from my family for their wrong doings, in order to persue the situation on a legal level even though they totally illegally touched me (in 2010).

2nd answer
IF IM IN A DARK NON LIT AREA AND THAY ACTEN FOOLISH LIKE THEY DID WHEN I WAS ATTACKED, THEN LOL LOL LOL, YA FEELS ME ITS FAIR GAME......... STARS UPON THEM

[edit on 4/19/10 by Ophiuchus 13]

Originally posted by GenRadek


I ask my fellow ATS members this question: What can you do if a police officer attacks you for no reason whatsoever? There was an incident here in IL which took place about a month ago, where a police officer was caught on camera beating an unarmed and coperative person, right in front of his home. The news story can be read here:
www.huffingtonpost.com...

what would be a proper way to go about such an incident? Any thoughts?

my knowledge says if you try to stay and fight, you're going to lose

they are trained for that kind of thing (resistors), if you are a large male, and the cop is a small female, perhaps you have a chance to overpower her

but in the end, they are not only trained to deal with resistors, they are equipped with dangerous, both lethal and nonlethal (some of the nonlethal weapons are debateably lethal though) weapons that are designed to make up for any 'larger or stronger' aggressors

that being said, the easiest and best chance you have is to make like the ninja and RUN

chances are they are wearing lots and lots of gear, too heavy to allow a sustained sprint chase

remember though, they have communications and will relay which direction you are going but chances are they do not know 'your neck of the woods' like you do, so if you run away in one direction, keep runing around corners to get out of sight, this way when they relay to each other "he's going south!!" when you are out of sight around a corner find a way to head the other direction unnoticed

this is the only method that still to this day will work, evasion.

also, if they have your name, or any information, or you think perhaps they might, use any recovery or rest time to develope a cover story like for instance, find a friend that will testify you were miles away with him playing videos games( or something normal for you to do) and therefor the escapee could not have been you (aliby's generally do not work well without second person)

reply to post by Ophiuchus 13


i aggree with you completely

in circumstances where there are eye witnesses, why not just take a few hits? you can sue him afterwards and get a couple grand!!! haha, it's worth it to me!

as far as combat with an officer in dim lit area goes though, i would not reccommend it!

If I have learned anything is that when a supposed law enforcement officer becomes the criminal, he is no longer a lawful law enforcement officer. He is instead a criminal and just because he is wearing a uniform and driving a police car does not change the fact that once a policeman goes criminal in behavior, he is no longer to be considered a real law enforcement officer.

This is key in my mind and anyone who tries to enforce the law while being a criminal in my mind can be ignored and dealt with as if he is just another citizen intent on taking advantage of you or who might be intent on killing you just because he thinks he can.

Such types are best dealt with like they were not law enforcement. Dont forget, actions make the difference. Any criminal action or request asked of a policeman should be considered just a request and nothing that warrants obedience or compliance. Remember this small point.

As such just remember that no one in law enforcement has any authority unless you give it to them. Any policeman acting as a criminal is a criminal and does not warrant the respect and courtesy that should be provided to a real law enforcement officers who are within the law and are trying to enforce the law in order to protect the public safety.

Rogue law enforcement officers going around breaking the laws are not lawful law enforcers and this is the one factor I will use to determine my level of cooperation with any policeman or law enforcement officer. If they are lawful and within their purview, I will comply. If they are criminal and rogue and intent on harming me or my family, I will view them as criminals that just happened to dress well on the day they met their fate.

Thanks for the posting.

After visiting LA for the 1st time I was a bit culture shocked... The guys wearing ' I work for food' picking up garbage was enough for me.

Then on the way to the airport my cab driver got pulled over and I thought .. oh no ... this is going to end in tears. It didn't .. the cop was very professional and the cab driver was going too fast ( which I didnt mind).

He got the ticket and we we were on our way again. Just my experience.

reply to post by GenRadek


To be honest there isn't much you can do.

A few months ago there where some people that tagged across the street on a fence, caused a bunch of damage and stuff to peoples property. Some neighbors caught them, along with my brother. My brother went up to the people and asked them to stop while the neighbors called the police. The cops went over and talked to the people who said that my brother was the one doing the property damage and sent the cops to our house. Meanwhile the people at the house that actually did the damage where holding the girl and the guy the actually did it in the backyard so that the cops wouldn't know they where the ones that did anything.

Please note that at the time this was going on: my brother has a heart condition, as well as a broken ankle (with plates and screws) and a bad back. The officers knocked on our door and my brother answered. He stood in the doorway with the screen door open. The police asked him what was going on and where the paint came from. My brother answered, told them the truth of what happened. Told them that he had gone over and told them to stop painting, and that yes, he had yelled at them a bit because they hadn't been listening and, instead, started an argument. You see the people that lived in the house where people that constantly partied, shot off guns, had fights and police over a lot. I've seen the house raided twice, another at least 4 times. The people in the house are known gang members and hang out with known gang members.

The police did not believe my brother because by the time the police arrived they had hid the evidence as well as the people that had committed the crime. They blamed it on my brother, said that my brother was the one that caused the damage. And so they came over to our house questioning my brother like he was the guilty one. Within a few moments they had dragged my brother out of the doorway, thrown him to the ground yelling "stop resisting stop resisting" while starting to pull out their stick things. They hit him a few times still yelling "stop resisting, stop resisting". He wasn't resisting, like I said, he has a bad heart and a bad back. The officer had both knees in his back and was literally shoving his face into the ground, into rocks. (there where marks afterwords yes, only no one caught it on camera so couldn't do anything...) The other officer was holding down his legs, on his broken ankle that has plates and screws in it, which messed it up more.

While this was going on my mom had been asleep because she was sick. She woke and came out not long after my brother was placed into the back of the cruiser. My mom came out and started arguing with them, finding out what was going on. She got maaad, really mad. They had no proof to arrest or even detain my brother. She went out and basically said "there is no paint on his hands, you get him out of there or you have a lawsuit." Finally they got him out the back of the car after my mom basically screamed their heads off. Then they went over and talked to the people that had called them, then actually TALKED to my brother instead of just arresting him. They soon found out what was going on. Within 20 minutes they had gone through and gotten the true people that had committed the crime. She still had paint on her hands, and the can of spray paint was soon found as well.

I can't say that police are good, I've honestly not met many that aren't judgmental or at least wrong...Hell some woman tried to attack me and my mom in a store parking lot, went to protect my mom from her and the cop threatened to arrest me because I touched her to keep her away from my mom....didn't do or say a thing to her at all...just let her walk away with a smile and a smug ass look on her face, and he'd seen everything that had happened. All I did was step in front of her and get her hand out my face.

reply to post by desireforyou


The girl who got in your mom's face was probably one of the side girlfriends of the cop. This happens so often you wouldn't believe it. Of course I don't know this for sure, but would put money on it.

In my town about 10 cops got fired or suspended for using their uniforms in a online dating service to pick up dates. Real slimeballs I tell ya.

Also, a camera filming the entire event would have gotten your brother a healthy paycheck from City Hall when all was said and done.

People, use those cameras and hold them accountable! YOU ARE NOT HELPLESS to these gorillas.