Evidence the Big Bang Theory Wrong - Quasars Don't Show Time Dilation

Originally posted by Markz0r
I hope religious fanatics and athiest activists alike don't look at this as any form of victory or defeat.

A funny little fact, is that when the big bang theory was first presented various scientists refused to accept it because it sounded too religious. It was a big debate at the time. With the atheists doing whatever they could to hold back the advancement of science.

This work might not pan out but there is reason to give it a chance to be disproven. IMHO, there are increasingly more observations that indicate far distant from our near-space region the laws of physics we assume to be constant are really not. Just as we are having problems in finding a model of how gravity fits into sub-micro (quantum) space.
This and the Pioneer "anomalous" cosmological observations might be telling us to broaden our perspectives on our physical "laws". For example, the Pioneer anomalies indicate Newton's law of gravity could be a first order simplicity ... Newton's inverse square gravity effect might have to be modified to reflect the non-near space departure from simple, linear 3-D. Likewise, if there is no Quasar time-dilation, then Einstein's relationships might have to be modified to reflect similar non-linear, far-space dimensional changes, or even perhaps that the speed of light barrier is not writ in stone (or that the speed of light might still be constant but the space it travels in is non-linear at long distances, .. and chunky at the quantum level). Kind of Zen.

Maybe the whole array of anomalous observations could be coordinated into a total re-view of our physics to be able to cover "micro" space (quantum), near-distance (Newton's Law, etc), and cosmological space (Pioneer anomaly, quasar non-time-dilation). This change of perspective would not be such a big deal and could free our minds to solve the quantum gravity "problem" as well as the Pioneer "problem" and the Quasar "problem".

reply to post by Risen


I hope you will forgive my ignorace should I be wrong; but, was the big bang theory not first proposed by a catholic priest? I must admit that I do not remember his name but that is what comes with old age.

Very interesting, however I hardly see this as a nail in the big bang, all this proves is that the universe continues to show us despite our arrogance we don't know as much as think we do. Humans love grandiose concepts, Its all about the Gods and the Big Bangs. Sometimes though our universe will not be "dumbed down" for our benefit. Maybe there were lots of little bangs, maybe quasars are not what we think they are...

reply to post by hdutton


Yes, it was a physics professor and catholic priest named Georges Lemaître who began work on what is now known as the big bang theory, using Einsteins theory of relativity as a basis.

I just googled it and he referred to it as the "hypothesis of the primeval atom". Not sure who pinned the "big bang" name on it.



[edit on 16-4-2010 by Risen]

I never been too fond of the Big Bang Theory either, so it's good to see that there are still a few scientists doing their jobs and questioning stuff that most took for granted.

reply to post by OnceReturned


I couldn't agree with you more. I don't think we should discard the big bang because of a hunch or our intuition didn't agree with it. I still think it is the best proposed theory so far and I mean by far the best. But I do agree also that this poses a big problem which might be solved quite easily or it might be a nuisance. We will have to wait and see.

I also think it's very exciting to see things that challenge the established theories. It shows that we have a long way to go before we have some kind of unified theory of everything.

Since the subject was brought up about what other advanced civilization know to be true knowledge of the begining of the Universe and the Validity of the Big Bang Theory I present the words from the most advanced civilization in the Cosmos. The people from the Planet Thiaoouba. Galactic Guardians of the Milky Way.

"You are welcome among us. May The Great Spirit assist and enlighten you. The others echoed: May The Great Spirit enlighten you. Now, once and for always, we will teach you and provide you with what you French call "The Key to the Mystery."

"As you have heard, In the beginning there was nothing except darkness and a spirit - THE Great Spirit- and He created, by his immense force, all that exists materially. The Great Spirit - the Superior Intelligence decided to create the worlds and He commanded to four superior forces...

The Great Spirit was, and is, infinitely powerful - powerful beyond the comprehension of any human mind. The Great Spirit is so powerful that it was able, by the action of its will alone, to trigger an atomic explosion with chain reactions of unimaginable force. In fact, the Spirit imagined the worlds - He imagined how to create them - from the most enormous to the most minuscule. He imagined the atoms. When He imagined them He created, in His imagination, all that ever moved and will move: all that ever lived and will live; all that is motionless, or seems to be - every single little thing.

But it existed only in his imagination. All was still in darkness. Once He had an overall view of what He wanted to create, He was able, by his exceptional spiritual force, to create, instantaneously, the four forces of the Universe.

With these, He directed the first and the most gigantic atomic explosion of all time - what certain people on Earth call The Big Bang. The Great Spirit was at its center and induced it. Darkness was gone and the Universe was creating itself according to the will of The Great Spirit.

The Great Spirit was thus, is still, and always will be, at the center of the Universe for He is the Master and Creator of it...

He created the planets, the suns, plants, animals, with one goal in mind: to satisfy his spiritual need. This is quite logical since He is purely spirit. Already I see you are wondering why the need to create material things in order to attain spiritual fulfillment. I offer this, by way of explanation: the creator sought spiritual experiences through a material world."

"In order to have these experiences, He wanted to embody a tiny part of his Spirit in a physical entity. To do this, He called on the Fourth force - A Force of and which concerns only spirituality. In this domain, Universal Law also applies.You most certainly know that the pattern of the Universe dictates that nine planets revolve around their sun or suns, sometimes 9 planets revolve around two small suns, twin stars. It is also the case that these suns revolve around a bigger sun, which is the nucleus for 9 such suns, and their 9 planets. So it continues, right to the center of the Universe from where the explosion referred to by the English as the Big Bang originated.

During billions of years. For the Creator of course, it is eternally the present, the eternal now, but it is more at the level of our understanding to count by billions of years.

All the worlds, suns and atoms were formed, as you are taught in schools, the planets revolving around their suns, and sometimes with their own satellites etc. At certain times in certain solar systems, some planets cool down - soil is formed, rocks solidify, oceans are formed and landmasses become continents.

Needless to say, certain accidents occur and sometimes a planet will be destroyed in a solar system, or perhaps a new one may enter it, but later in time, the solar system will revert and base its structure again on the number 9.

"The Fourth force had a very important role to play: it had to bring to fruition all that The Great Spirit had imagined. At the very beginning, The Great Spirit imagined experiencing feelings through a special creature. Thus Man was created. It inserted thus, an infinitesimal part of the Spirit in the human body.

A normal human Astral body contains approximately four billion, trillion electrons. These electrons have a life span of approximately ten billion, trillion of your earth years. They were created at the moment of creation. Your Astral body contains them and, when you die some of them are 'recycled', nineteen percent rejoin the electrons of the Universe until required by Nature to form a new body or a new tree or animal, and the eighty one percent rejoin your Higher Self." The Thaori, The Seven Masters of the Planet Thiaoouba from the Book The Thiaoouba Originally Titled Abduction to the 9th Planet by Michel Desmarquet.

The thing with the big bang theory is that its the big bang theory..... we seem to have come to the conclusion that it is the big bang fact. We've just accepted and gone along with it.

As my signature states, it was not that long ago we thought we were the centre of the universe, then we thought the earth was flat..... we have not even started to scratch the surface of our understanding..... we just hate to admit it.

S & F for you OP

This is a great article, and not from a crackpot site at least. I would like to see other scientist take this on and try to replicate instead of trying to bash.

I guess the History Channel's show "The Universe" will have to make another intro if there really was no big bang!!

Originally posted by thomas_
I never been too fond of the Big Bang Theory either, so it's good to see that there are still a few scientists doing their jobs and questioning stuff that most took for granted.

Too right, at least there are some who question the authority of the science dictators.

Here's a comment that I think sums up this anomaly rather nicely,

The dilation isn't expected to be occurring because there's a blackhole, It's occuring because the matter being ejected from either end of the BH is not experiencing time fluctuation. Considering it's being ejected at almost the speed of light (faster than the LHC speeds by a significant amount) those particles should appear to undergo relatively slow to almost no decay.

The odd and interesting piece is that as the universe expands these distant quasars should be moving away from us at ever increasing speeds or moving closer to us at ever decreasing speeds. From observation of the jets we're not seeing this phenomina and that is nonsensical as either the speed of the material or the speed of the galaxy should correspond to standard observational extrapolation.

In essence it appears we're viewing these distant objects in realtime as opposed to slow motion as we should view them.

More technical information on quasars and their red-shifted spectra.

article

C. Comparison with Observations
Quasars have then, a redshift about 1600 times larger than a typical star whose light intersects the same column density of gas. That quasar would then be 1600 times closer than expected from their red shift (when one has used the Doppler instead of the Hubble interpretation). This result is of interest because the standard model shows several difficulties related to quasars:
a) The unacceptable red shift-distance relationship,
b) their unphysical brightness, and
c) the abnormal red shift of quasars that are physically associated with closer galaxies as reported by Arp [12].
A) Narlikar shows that when the red shift of galaxies is plotted against their faintness, a straight line is obtained [40]. However, the corresponding plot for quasars plotted against their faintness produces a random scatter of points [40]. It is surprising that quasars located at larger distances do not appear less bright, unless the redshift of quasars is not due to their great distance. The model calculated here shows that the red shifts of quasars do not primarily depend on the distance, but depend on their equivalent temperature. This explains why the red shift-distance relationship is seriously defective in quasars.

Hahahaha, this is great news. One of the few times ever that the mainstream has acknowledged that the Big Bang is a fraud.

According to the big bang the universe expanded from an infinitely small dot. It is an infinite expansion that expanded faster than the speed of light.

If it is expanding faster than light, according to relativistic effects, it would expand back in time. So the universe would have started and finished expanding before it started.

Just something to think about.

How do scientists know that a quasar is 10 billion miles away, since the red shifting is the same as for those that are 6 billion light years away? Since red shifting is used to measure distance, then two quasars with the same red shifting should be at the same distance.
Has the red shifting ever been measured in controlled conditions?

Originally posted by muzzleflash


A funny thing is, I always considered the Big Bang theory like a Western Religious concept that the individual scientists could not let go of despite they had began straying away from the Church.

It is in a way, a sophisticated version of "creationism". Big bang Big crunch, Alpha and Omega.

Monsignor Georges Henri Joseph Édouard Lemaître "The cosmic egg" a.k.a the primeval atom .

As member Risen stated a few posts back it was a Jesuit priest and mathematician who first proposed what was later to be called the big bang theory. A term which incidentally was first used in a derogatory fashion to describe the theory.

Originally posted by xizd1
I've always intuitively thought that the big bang theory was bogus. There are too many special processes and conditions. Sudden expansion being just one of these. I feel that the explanation will be simple and elegant.
Something that can be observed in nature, like a zygote that multiplies and forms a more complex structure and continues to grow. It is pretty amazing that an egg and sperm can combine and eventually become a living creature.
Laugh if you want, but I think that is a much more likely scenario.

Well, the concept seems to make sense, but that would still be creating stuff out of nothing like the big bang. zygotes multiply by consuming other matter and making it a part of itself.

Once in High School I took some acid and had a rude awakening so to speak about what I preceived to be reality...I felt like a small little ant and some huge creature or being was going to squash me...I can't except the idea that out of all these planets that have been found we are the only living creatures out ther...Like earlier mentioned in this thread...what do we know...if our whole lives we had an understanding so to speak about what reality and life existed of and all of a sudden somebody gives us a pill and wakes us up to a different reality...wow...guess we were wrong all the time...what does one say to that...OOPS...these questions are just a waste of time trying to figure out how does it benefit the human race here on earth to spend billions, trillions of dollars on research and development to gather information about quasars 8 million light years away...it doesn't...it is said that one launch of the space shuttle does more damage to the ozone layer than all of human industrialization creates in a year...some things are just meant to be left alone...maybe people will some day realize this and concentrate on feeding and educating the world we live in so we can all be a better species together instead of wasting time and resources on frivilous quests for useless information...

Is there anything other than Hubble's observed red[er] [Doppler] shift of more [& more] distant objects that indicates an expanding Universe?

Is it all standing on one [seemingly consistent] leg of evidence or are there other 'legs' of evidence as well?

[edit on 16-4-2010 by slank]