Mental Disorder?

reply to post by zaiger

They work? these are the side effects of paxil

Then you listed the side effects of the drug..........
Next, you said,

So the drugs used to treat a disorder cause some of the symptoms of what they are trying to cure.

Your argument is illogical.

As a 15 year R.N. I am here to tell you that their are bacterial infections that cause abdominal pain, nausea and vomiting, and diarrhea for example E-coli and yet the treatment for such an infection is an antibiotic.

Now ask someone who has ever taken an antibiotic do they sometimes experience nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain or diarrhea while taking the drug. I am 100% positive the answer would be yes.

Does this mean we wouldn't treat a patient with an Ecoli infection with antibiotics, of course not, without antibiotics the patient could easily die. However, we would look for the antibiotic with the least side effects and the one the patient could tolerate the best.

Antidepressants and Antipsychotics are no different, some people may experience side effects and others may have none.

Mr. Witty said, because companies often don't know until the end of very large studies whether a drug works.

It is also hard to prove that a depression drug is working, he said, because patient improvement is measured by subjective mood surveys, and not by the clear-cut blood tests and biological measures used in other diseases. online.wsj.com...

So when a doctor diagnosis a "mental disorder" it is very scientific and takes years of training. But when the drug maker has to actually do a test (you know the scientific stuff) it becomes hard to tell because it is measured by subjective mood surveys.

Please answer this, How does a Scientist test an antidepressant? By patient improvement and the abatement of symptoms. Yes, the patient gets better!

You can't see a backache either yet a backache is very subjective, in fact pain is the most subjective symptom there is. We can't draw labs to measure pain so how does a doctor or nurse know if a patient is having pain.

We Observe with our eyes and our ears, pain and depression cannot be seen, however the symptoms can be seen. As medical professionals we learn to look listen and feel and then draw our conclusions

Think about it before you answer.

Pax

reply to post by paxnatus

As a 15 year R.N. I am here to tell you that their are bacterial infections that cause abdominal pain, nausea and vomiting, and diarrhea for example E-coli and yet the treatment for such an infection is an antibiotic.

Big difference, if someone has an e coli infection there are tests you can 100% proove that e coli is the problem and use a product that will cure it.

Antidepressants and Antipsychotics are no different, some people may experience side effects and others may have none.

Huge difference, people can get through the problems of anti-biotics because they cure the problem and they know they could visit 1,000,000,000 doctors and they could all run tests and say "you have e coli"
With mental dissorders the "tests" are so subjective that 50 different doctors could list 50 different problems.

Please answer this, How does a Scientist test an antidepressant?

Thats the next step. First you have to proove scientifically and objectively show a difference between regular depression and clinical depression or ADD and a kid who just does not want to listen.

You can't see a backache either yet a backache is very subjective, in fact pain is the most subjective symptom there is.

Yes but pain is an indication of a physical problem. With back pain the person complains of back pain and they either find a reason for the pain like a disc or something or they can perscribe medication to treat the pain. Patient complians of pain and that is what is treated. With psychiatry you can complain about depression and you could be diagnosed with one of the many mental disorders and there is a pill or an electric shock to treat it.

reply to post by zaiger


You really don't understand mental disorders do you? Many people have pain
who suffer with depression. Depression and pain physical pain most of the time go hand and hand.

I guarantee you will not always find a pinched nerve or something physical to diagnose someones back pain. Muscle strains and sprains occur yet you cannot see them. One can have a muscle strain of their back and it will not show up on an MRI, CT scan, X-Ray or in any blood work. Yet the patient is suffering terrible pain. Do doctors refuse to give pain medication because pain can't be seen on a test? No, that would be ridiculous and unethical.

There is a medical diagnosis called Pain Of Unknown Origin. Medicine weather it is physical medicine or mental health medicine is NOT an exact science. Most diagnosis are reached by ruling out what the problem Isn't.

You never answered my previous question, If according to you schizophrenia
is real and Bipolar disorder isn't, is schizoaffective disorder real or imagined?

Why do you believe schizophrenia is a real mental illness and Bipolar and Depression are not? There is no definitive test for schizophrenia.





[edit on 14-4-2010 by paxnatus]

[edit on 15-4-2010 by paxnatus]

I personally think what you are experiencing is something that people choose to not acknowledge. Im pretty sure when we were all children we had that inner voice that we would have short conversations with on whether we should steal something or say something or whatever the situation...

I believe it is reasoning!... the reasoning is between what you have learnt, what is happening at present and your conscience... we all seem to put a voice on all of these because it is easier to understand and remember.

The man is clearly not insane.... you can half tell by his vocabulary and structure of words...

I truly believe it is reasoning between all the above mentioned...
I believe that what you are going through is more of a un-conditioning of the mind from all the information that has been put into you.

For example:
Somehow while growing up you believed you were ugly... but now you are questioning, "well what is it that is making me ugly", and finally coming to the conclusion after this reasoning session that you were never ugly to begin with, and this has left you feeling more confident in yourself, or has helped you to progress in some way...

So it is a type of accepting and rejecting of information...Reasoning... and what further causes me to believe this is that your on such a site as ATS, which is an alternative media site.. which means your looking for Truth, you no longer want to accept the crap that has been pumped into you all your life.

For the Fearful side of it... i think that it is you being out of your comfort zone...

As long as you are just reasoning and coming to GOOD conclusions... and you know how to reject any negative reasoning (i.e like reasoning and trying to find an excuse to do something bad), then you should be ok!...

For those who believe in the TRI-Part being, this type of thing would be:

The Spirit of man/Conscience, The Brain/Interllect and then Feelings, or Mind, Will and Emotions... all having their say, but remember.... the interllect is the one who gets to choose what one will do.

after your reasonings choose wisely!...

reply to post by zaiger


The validity and reliability of psychological tests are tested thoroughly. They test the traits that are associated with depression and this has been shown to produce the same results after repeated administration. The problem comes from the fact that many disorders are often comorbid, which is why it is so hard to make a diagnosis. The doctor needs to get at the root disorder and treat that before working on those that emerged as a result of it.

Also, I take objection to the fact that you make it sound like psychologists use electro convulsive therapy with little to no discretion. It is only used in cases in extreme cases of depression that aren't responding to medication. Let's not forget the fact that modern ECT is the most effective treatment of depression with a success rate of 80 - 90% and with fewer side effects than any other treatment. The problem is there is such a stigma against it that most people are afraid to opt for it as a treatment.

reply to post by paxnatus

You really don't understand mental disorders do you? Many people have pain
who suffer with depression. Depression and pain physical pain most of the time go hand and hand.

Sounds like more quckery to me. Pain is yet another method to diagnose depression?

mental health medicine is NOT an exact science.

No it is not, not even close.

Most diagnosis are reached by ruling out what the problem Isn't.

Sounds like more bad science.

Why do you believe schizophrenia is a real mental illness and Bipolar and Depression are not?

The science behind schizophrenia is a bit more revealing but still ongoing. There are some physical abnormalities in the brains of some patients but there is no proof of the medication fixing that issue. There is also problems with how it is diagnosed, most patients are diagnosed through observation of behavior rather than physical tests.

en.wikipedia.org...
Psychiatry is bunk.

reply to post by zaiger


Depression also has an impact on body such as a smaller hippocampus and the BDNF levels in their blood are much lower than those in a normal person. In bipolar you see abnormalities in the amygdala, the hippocampus, and prefrontal cortex, as well as larger ventricles, which is also found in schizophrenics. For the most part all mental disorders have brain abnormalities attached with them, it's just much more expensive to use an MRI to diagnose these disorders than a survey that can measure a person's symptoms.

reply to post by zaiger


The next time you quote me, do not take the quote out of context. By doing that you completely manipulated what I said.

I said Medicine All Medicine is NOT an exact Science. A lot of diagnosis, are devised by ruling out what an illness isn't HINT: Deductive Reasoning

The rest of your post is nonsensical BS

When you have done some real research I'll be more than happy to debate with you, but next time be prepared to bring something credible to the table.

I tried now I give up.



[edit on 14-4-2010 by paxnatus]

Originally posted by OrphenFire
reply to post by Axial Leader

 

You are doubtfully insane :p. The problem I have is that I am compelled to speak aloud, with differing vocal and tonal patterns. These variations of vocal and tonal patterns also manifest different schools of thought, as I mentioned.

My personal conclusion as of right now is that I am progressing beyond dysthymia. Into what, I don't know yet. My condition has gone untreated for many, many years. I have tried to ignore it, telling myself it is only in my head and not real. I am afraid I may have been wrong about that. With all that said, I am going to pursue psychological therapy in the near future.

The reason I believe I am progressing beyond dysthymia is that my mind has reached a "tipping" point and it cannot ignore the condition any longer. I believe I could be in trouble if I continue to ignore the original problem: the dysthymia.

You are having a problem with consciousness!!!!!!

A lot of people are.

You can attempt to treat the symptom.

Or you can try to understand the nature of consciousness.

When you understand the nature of consciousness it naturally results in a state of being that is at peace with itself.

www.beezone.com...

"What is consciousness? This is the basic question posed in The Knee of Listening. What is consciousness? You never discover what it is by wandering in the play of life and the body-mind. You can only discover it by entering into consciousness itself, by contemplating it most profoundly, locating its Quality, Condition, Status, Force. When you have fully entered into Consciousness Itself, then suddenly the Divine Condition of everything becomes obvious"

reply to post by OrphenFire


Many very intelligent and creative people have lively conversations in their minds. It's a characteristic of that creativity.

There is a slight possibility that you are experiencing the beginning of a psychotic episode. However, as long as you are fully aware that the conversations are in your mind and that both speakers are you, you are not, technically, psychotic. If and when you cross that line then you may need to seek help.

Sometimes I get so involved in an internal conversation that I tune out what is around me for brief periods. My husband, a psychiatric nurse, says it's "responding to internal stimuli," which is a sign of dissociation or possible psychosis.

My therapist says that's nonsense.

As others have already said, you may be dissociating because of the anti-depressants you are taking. I'd say talk it over with the psychiatrist who is prescribing your meds (if its a GP then he or she might not be sufficiently trained in psychiatry to render a good opinion).

Do reality checks from time to time, and get feedback on your behavior from others you trust.

Meantime, kick back and enjoy. You are having a rich creative experience which may teach you much about yourself.

reply to post by Xcalibur254

The validity and reliability of psychological tests are tested thoroughly. They test the traits that are associated with depression and this has been shown to produce the same results after repeated administration

Care to share any of these tests? Can people without any mental disorders take these tests and show no sign of illness?

Also, I take objection to the fact that you make it sound like psychologists use electro convulsive therapy with little to no discretion. It is only used in cases in extreme cases of depression that aren't responding to medication. Let's not forget the fact that modern ECT is the most effective treatment of depression with a success rate of 80 - 90% and with fewer side effects than any other treatment. The problem is there is such a stigma against it that most people are afraid to opt for it as a treatment.

So depression a "disease" that is caused by something unknown and has a subjective test for diagnosis. The treatment is drugs, then if that does not work they run a couple hundred volts and 800 milliamps through the brain. Now keep in mind the whole electro shock therapy started in the 30s and really took off in the 50s when the lobotomy was outlawed. The effectiveness of electro shock only lasts for 6 months and then the person has to get more.

[edit on 14-4-2010 by zaiger]

Hey, I didn't read past page 2 so....I am not trying to come off like an a$$ but do you have freinds. Not people you suround yourself because of work/life with but people you can talk to that you like that are not your family? Regardless, you may have a mild type of some social based anxiety disorder maybe its a side effect of your dysthimia i dunno cuz i dont know you. Thats all i got...for now.

...By the way some of you should class it up a bit...this cat comes and posts sincerely questioning his sanity and some of you folks turn it into your own personal pissin match...cmon people...U2U...

edit for rant

[edit on 15-4-2010 by BlastedCaddy]

[edit on 15-4-2010 by BlastedCaddy]

reply to post by OrphenFire


Naah, you're fine.

I've been doing that, more or less, since I was 2 or 3 years old. My parents admonished me for it, which they no doubt saw as their duty, and so I stopped doing it when anyone was around, but it's still pretty much the same for me. I don't have two different voices though, and more than just 2 "voices". My thoughts have always come in words with no voice, or in concepts without words, so when conversations happen internally, they would also be without words.
Talking to yourself is really just a way that some people use to work out problems. What you're experiencing sounds less like a "disorder" and more like an ability or configuration option. It's disconcerting to others because at first they think someone is there, and then there isn't. And the nastier of these others have the immediate reaction to remove or ban anything they find confusing or disturbing. Hence labeling any aberrant human behavior as some kind of disorder. Dis-order meaning against order. Against whose order? Certainly not your own.
Talking to other people is cool sometimes, because they have a better chance of surprising you with new data, but only you can ever really understand what you mean when you say things, and sometimes it's a lot easier to communicate things to an inner entity than an outer one.

Supposedly some cultures do not have a different word for "mind" and "thought". Because both are just collections of data, the difference being the perception of the level of "intelligence" or complexity each would have. So everyone's inner world would be like space, with thoughts (data) instead of matter, and in some places the matter (data) would conglomerate together into different kinds of entities. Different characteristics dependant on composition, environment, and gravitational pull from other nearby thoughts (planets, galaxies), but essentially all the thoughts (star systems, etc.) are made of the same stuff and respondant to the same kinds of influences. If this were true then having inner voices is not only okay and natural, but really should be the norm.
Ah, but that's just one way of looking at things.
To a thought pattern like red-string celeb kaballah all the "external" people are actually inside you, so talking to them is really no different than talking to yourself, just a little less honest, really.
So naah, you're fine.

continued in another post...

reply to post by OrphenFire


As for the "near break-down" thing, it sounds like a bit of a toxic environment there for one thing. Corporate public scrutiny combined with familial obligations and such, not a good place to be having deep or serious thoughts. You said something to the effect of it "coming out of nowhere" but that's not really so, probably. Most folk, their mind is like a churning quagmire. Sometimes different elements mush together and have a chemical reaction, causing a gas, and the gas rises to the surface, makes a bubble, and the thought comes out. Now on the surface, we can't see the churning, can't see the elements combining, the reaction, the rising of gas, or even the gas itself. All we see is the surface of the swamp and a few bubbles, and then try to guess from something as irrelevant as the pattern of the bubbles what might be going on underneath. The point of all that confusion (to some) is that you were probably having a thought that was coming up from underneath and was being held down by the social pressures. Something with high emotional or philosophic value, perhaps, or maybe just something in which your two voices felt a lot of contention (ergo need for discussion), and none of that stuff is appropriate when other people are around. It's perfectly normal as a human being to simply laugh or cry out in the middle of the day with no apparent cause. This is because a person SHOULD be so deep that all the apparent causes are only the surface, and no one on the "outside" can see or even guess at the galactic-level complexity of what's going on underneath.
However, while apparently causeless laughing and crying are perfectly normal and healthy, they aren't well looked upon in materialistic societies. Again, this is because some nasty people dislike anything which confuses them. Some people specifically like things which confuse them, and perhaps therein lies more wisdom than I feel like looking into right now.
So if your mindpool was trying to have an important event like a deep thought, conversation, etc, and then another part of you was keeping that in check, then yeah, you should expect some kind of tensions to arise. And since you probably didn't feel free to express the tensions either, that increased the "below-surface" pressure even higher, causing a "downward spiral" to quote the great Trent Reznor.
Also, if you're like me, and most of the other humans (maybe all) you actually do have two physical brains. The corpus collosum(sp?) is just a little strip of connective tissue (patch cable) which connects two twin brains. Twins, exactly. They have inherent mental connection like twins, but also operate independently and make their own decisions like twins. There's a division of labor, specialization of tasks which each could/can perform, etc. Two different people, operating the same craft, essentially. So even on that level, what you're experiencing would be normal and natural.

I would say, trust yourself. You don't experience the voice thing as bad, then it's not. But the near-breakdown thing, experienced as bad? Then that's the problem. Keep in mind though, it's pretty damn awful to imagine that all humans should be the same and any difference is a "disorder". You might just be special.

reply to post by zaiger


Sorry, I just had to say this... "People without any mental disorders"?

Where do you live, that they have such people?

You might as well be talking to a wall when it comes to those who dont acknowledge some mental illnesses. It's really a shame. It's hard enough for those who have these problems to seek help. Let alone u have somebody in ur ear telling u what ur experiencing is not real, in a sense. I am diagnosed with bipolar depression, rapid cycling. I know what my life was before meds, unbearable, torturous. There are some days where death would be a relief from the heaviness on my heart and soul. Have u ever seen or experienced anything so sad that it's 'heartwrenching'? That is comparable to some of my lowest moments. Only instead of temporary it's constant, non-stop, no relief from it. It's so heavy, that burden. I feel like I'm being crushed from the weight of it all at times. The worst of it all is that u never know when itll happen or how long it will last. There are things that can never be explained except by 1st hand experience. You cant prove 'God' but that doesnt mean 'God' isnt there.

Peace. K*

Many good points made here already (as usual)..

Clishe or not, but I would also recommend deep meditation before taking any medication. Search yourself, in peace and silence, and try to determinate what the problem actually is.

It might be some traumatic experience pushed down, contradictions between you and the environment (values etc.). Just try to quiet down and sort the mess. I would also stay away from any kind of religious system, they could make the problem worse.

I hope you manage friend. And turn off the TV.

reply to post by zaiger


Well if you want to go with the gold standard of psychological tests, there's the MMPI which measures for a number of psychological disorders. Not only does it have a number of sub-scales that measure different disorders, it also has a sub-scale then measures whether a person is answering honestly or if they are simply answering what they think will label them with a disorder. If we just want to stay in the realm of depression then there's the Beck Depression Inventory. The latest incarnation was found to have strong internal consistency with an alpha of .91, while the test-retest scores produced a Pearson's r of .93, meaning the scores are highly correlated. Even though this latest version was created in 1996, studies like Subramaniam, Harrell, Huntley & Tracy (2009), continue to support these findings. While neither of these tests can produce a clear cut diagnosis, they are important screening tools to determine what course of action should be taken with the patient.

On the topic of ECT, yes it wears off after a while, but the people that truly need it have no problem with that. As I mentioned the people who end up getting ECT are severely depressed and have been hospitalized, either voluntarily or forcibly if they pose a threat to themselves. These are people that have lost all hope and are having definite thoughts about suicide, and have either tried to kill themselves already or on the verge of killing themselves. So, if this treatment can prevent people from killing themselves with results seen immediately after the treatment, I don't think it matters whether it wears off or not, and I know that the people who have received this treatment will agree with me. The truth is psychology doesn't claim to be able to cure these disorders, merely treat them. When symptoms cease the disorder is said to be in remission and they can return later in life. Some are lucky and the symptoms never return, but others may have to get treatment again later in life. However, does this really matter when people were having trouble functioning in a normal capacity are able to live their life as they want?

maybe the left hand side of your brain is talking to the other.

it's not all one big thing you know.

Unless you have actual brain damage, then don't worry about it.

All that "sane" means is clear thinking. By talking about this, you are thinking quite clearly, in my mind.

You appear to be stuck...have you experienced any kind of trauma in recent years? Or, do you avoid people at an intimate level? Do you have any close friends that you could replace one of these "characters" with to have a conversation?

Schizophrenics (this is theorized) create multiple personalities to deal with issues and discuss them in a "safe" setting for them. Maybe the same type of phenomenon is happening with you. You need to resolve something on your mind...you only feel safe having this conversation with yourself.

I would encourage you to try to have one of these conversations with someone you trust. Someone that you feel safe with. Because of this, a psychiatrist or psychologist may not be the right person due to fears that you may have.

Just thought I'd share my thoughts...and I wish all the best for you...Peace

[edit on 15-4-2010 by ibiubu]