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The Utter Insanity of Pro-Choice

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posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 01:06 PM
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Originally posted by andy1033

Abortion is wrong,


Now that is your opinion!
Maybe indiscriminate sex is what is wrong.
Maybe disrespecting the sexual energies is wrong.
Maybe there is no such thing as wrong.

There is however always consequence.

[edit on 14-4-2010 by cindymars]




posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 01:10 PM
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All of these arguments make sense except they leave out one major fact:

If a woman that wants an abortion is forced NOT to have one, do you really think she is going to take care of herself for nine months? How she takes care of herself directly relates to the health of the baby once it is born.

If a woman smokes, drinks, does drugs, and/or does not take prenatal vitamins and does not get the required folic acid, the baby is then born with:

Alcohol Fetal Syndrome


However, the most common and consistent features of FAS involve the growth, performance, intelligence, head and face, skeleton, and heart of the child.

Growth is diminished. Birth weight is lessened. Retardation of longitudinal growth is evident on the measurements of length in infancy and of standing height later in childhood. The growth lag is permanent.

Performance is impaired. The FAS infant is irritable. The older FAS child is hyperactive. Fine motor skills are impaired with weak grasp, poor eye-hand coordination, and tremors.

Intelligence is diminished. The average IQ is in the 60s. (This level is considered mild mental retardation and qualifies a child in the U.S. as educable retarded.)

The usual degree of microcephaly in FAS is classified as mild to moderate. It is primarily due to failure of brain growth. The consequences are neither mild nor moderate.

The skeleton shows characteristic changes; abnormal position and function of joints, shortening of the metacarpal bones leading to the fourth and fifth fingers, and shortening of the last bone (the distal phalanx) in the fingers. There is also a small fifth fingernail and a single transverse (simian) crease across the palm.

A heart murmur is often heard and then may go away. The basis is usually a hole between the right and left sides of the heart between the ventricles (the lower chambers) or less commonly, the atria (the upper chambers).

A number of other birth defects can occur in children with FAS.

Link: www.medicinenet.com...

Defects due to lack of folic acid:


Every year, about 3,000 infants are born with neural tube defects (NTDs), according to the CDC. These defects include spina bifida and anencephaly, a condition in which the brain is not properly formed or is at least partly missing. Children who survive are often left paralyzed for life.

NTDs are preventable if mothers-to-be take folic acid before and during their pregnancy.

www.webmd.com...

Smoking:


Smoking during pregnancy affects you and your baby's health before, during, and after your baby is born. The nicotine (the addictive substance in cigarettes), carbon monoxide, and numerous other poisons you inhale from a cigarette are carried through your bloodstream and go directly to your baby. Smoking while pregnant will:

Lower the amount of oxygen available to you and your growing baby.
Increase your baby's heart rate.
Increase the chances of miscarriage and stillbirth.
Increase the risk that your baby is born prematurely and/or born with low birth weight.
Increase your baby's risk of developing respiratory (lung) problems.
The more cigarettes you smoke per day, the greater your baby's chances of developing these and other health problems. There is no "safe" level of smoking while pregnant.

women.webmd.com...

And finally, drug use:


Studies have shown that consumption of illegal drugs during pregnancy can result in miscarriage, low birth-weight, premature labor, placental abruption, fetal death, and even maternal death.

www.americanpregnancy.org...

Stop picturing all of these happy, healthy, pudgy little babies running around!

If a woman does not want the baby, she is not going to take care of herself -- or the baby -- during pregnancy. Therefore, the baby that is born loses any chance of a "normal" life the minute the woman decides she doesn't want it. How is anyone going to control what a pregnant woman does and does not put into her body?? It's up to her.

This is not the same as a baby born into a loving home that sadly was born with a defect. In the latter, they already love and want this baby. In the former, it was mistake she's trying to rid herself of.


Edit to add:
I do believe however that men that father these children should have more rights. However, the above arguments would still stand.

[edit on 14-4-2010 by lpowell0627]



posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 01:19 PM
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reply to post by Monts
 


Hi Monts. Don't get me wrong here. I respect your point of view. I heard of stories where the estranged father is offered no sympathy from the legal system when he runs into financial difficulties and becomes unable to go on paying child support, so I understand that men feel screwed by the system, especially when they are threatened with jail time.
I looked at the part of your post I quoted from a practical point of view.
Let's say the man wants the child and the woman doesn't. If he has legal recourse, he takes her to court. The court finds in his favour. What happens then? Is the woman put under house arrest until she gives birth? No matter which way I look at it, if a man has a legal right to enforce his will this way on a woman, it is a violation of human rights. It treats the woman like a brood mare.



posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 01:26 PM
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reply to post by jeanvaljean
 


I understand your point... it's more the social norm of men being the baddies and woman being the innocent that needs to be changed.

As someone said earlier, if the woman chooses to abort but the father wishes to have the baby, then there should be some kind of legal justice served in favor of the father... i.e. sue for damages, because I know if I was the father in this case, I would be damaged for sure...



posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 01:34 PM
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reply to post by lpowell0627
 


This is a good point... but as I've said, I wouldn't be in favor of "forcing" a mother to have the baby; I'm in favor of changing some aspect of the legal code, as well as the social code in order to have the father have more input into the decision.

And not all woman who abort are drinkers, smokers, and drug addicts; the majority are young females looking to take the easy way out... No woman who didn't smoke or do drugs before they were pregnant are going to start doing so if they were forced to have the baby...

It's about responsibility.... people are to lazy and lethargic to take on the task of pregnancy, so they take the easy way out.



posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 01:37 PM
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reply to post by Monts
 


But why shouldn't there be a right for the man to be able to get teh abortion done. If abortion is legal, why cannot the male decide?



posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 01:40 PM
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reply to post by andy1033
 


But why shouldn't there be a right for the man to be able to get teh abortion done. If abortion is legal, why cannot the male decide?


Andy - you are missing the point of the law and the determination of the Supreme Court. It's about the right an individual has to their person/body. It's about the protection of privacy under the 14th amendment.

If you want to argue Philosophy (as opposed to Law) than how does one argue that an individual's right to make a choice about their person is subject to the demand of another?

_____________________
ETA:
the quote, again

[edit on 14-4-2010 by LadySkadi]



posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 01:43 PM
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reply to post by Monts
 


Now it makes more sense to me. I apologise for taking the 'legal right' bit literally. I agree with you that the sense of fatherhood (joy and anticipation), engendered by the news that your partner is pregnant with your child is often dismissed out of hand when she chooses to abort, along with the very real distress it can cause the would-be dad; a friend of mine had that happen to him and he was devastated.
I don't see how monetary compensation would help but I agree that the whole issue should be reconsidered, though I can't think of any easy solution.



posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 01:50 PM
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reply to post by Monts
 


But why shouldn't there be a right for the man to be able to get teh abortion done. If abortion is legal, why cannot the male decide?



posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 01:55 PM
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reply to post by lpowell0627
 


Surely if she did it deliberately it could be classed as negligent parenting?



posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 01:57 PM
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reply to post by archives
 

People smoke and drink during pregnancy all the time - it is not illegal - though it is (IMO) rather disgusting.



posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 01:58 PM
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reply to post by LadySkadi
 


Surely the sperm is from the man, and that gives him some right too.

By the way, to make sure my viewpoint, i have never wanted to bring someone into this world ever.

So you can see my viewpoint and the fact that others should be able to choose.



posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 02:04 PM
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reply to post by andy1033
 



But why shouldn't there be a right for the man to be able to get teh abortion done. If abortion is legal, why cannot the male decide?


The closest analogy I can come up with to what you are proposing (a man forcing a woman to abort) is this:


Kidney transplants are legal. Let's say you are one of the few people who would be compatible with someone needing a new kidney. Would you agree with a law that would make it legal for one of your kidneys to be extracted against your will?
As Ladyskadi pointed out, it is a matter of 'sovereignty over one's own body', a fundamental human right.

Edited for wrong spelling.



[edit on 14-4-2010 by jeanvaljean]



posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 02:13 PM
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reply to post by jeanvaljean
 


I do not think thats a fair analogy. What happens in this world where a man and women have sex and she gets impregnated, and the man does not want it. Surely the man should have that right to get rid of it?

It is pure hypocrisy that males cannot have the right to choose as well.

Like i said i will never put myself in this situation, but how mankind made this law, and decided the man cannot choose and say equal rights is beyond me.

Another way to shaft the male gender.



posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 02:25 PM
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reply to post by andy1033
 

You are talking about performing an operation on another human being without their consent, so am I. The fact that you don't want to be a father doesn't give you the right to have a woman strapped down on an operating table, kicking and screaming, so that her fetus can be removed.



posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 02:26 PM
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Surely the man should have that right to get rid of it?


No. He does not.

Period.



posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 02:28 PM
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I'll tell you what bothers me.

Men whining about pro choice issues.

Here is my opinion as a woman, and it is short and sweet.

The time for a man's CHOICE is when he CHOOSES to place his seed inside a woman.

By exercising his CHOICE he is living with the consequences of said choice, of which there are 2.

The woman has a baby from the union he CHOSE or the woman doesn't have a baby from the union he CHOSE.

Simple and no bother at all.



posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 02:34 PM
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Originally posted by andy1033
reply to post by Monts
 


But why shouldn't there be a right for the man to be able to get teh abortion done. If abortion is legal, why cannot the male decide?


Because if the man doesn't want the child all he need do is walk away, with no physical consequences to himself.

The mother however must then make a life changing choice, if she cannot in any way accept abortion as an option, then to give the man the right to force one would be catastrophically devastating to her.

Some women never recover completely from a miscarriage, can you imagine their trauma if was done on purpose?

I am pro choice, as long as the choice to abort is made for the right reasons.

However I do agree that guys get a raw deal.
IMO I think that if there is an unexpected, accidental pregnancy the guy should have some options.

For example: if he doesn't want the child and if the mother refuses to abort (which is her choice) then he should be able to sign some document stating his complete disagreement with the pregnancy and absolve himself from all responsibility. Thereby having no say whatever in the childs upbringing and not have to pay either.

The other side of the coin: if he wants the child, and she does not, I do agree that he should be able to ask her to carry it and hand it over at birth.

How you would force a woman to look after herself and ensure a healthy baby is of course a whole other kettle of fish.

Also if the mothers choice is to adopt then the father and his family should be given first choice, providing they are suitable parent material of course.
(by that I mean to meet the same criteria as any adopting parent)

But the bottom line is that it is the woman choice as it is her body.

.



posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 02:38 PM
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reply to post by PennyQ
 


How about the mans right to decide that he does not want to bring someone into this rotten world?

Things are more complicated.

Males should have the right to make a women abort, if he wants to if abortion is legal.

Males should have the right to decide.



posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 02:46 PM
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Originally posted by hotbakedtater
I'll tell you what bothers me.

Men whining about pro choice issues.

Here is my opinion as a woman, and it is short and sweet.

The time for a man's CHOICE is when he CHOOSES to place his seed inside a woman.

By exercising his CHOICE he is living with the consequences of said choice, of which there are 2.

The woman has a baby from the union he CHOSE or the woman doesn't have a baby from the union he CHOSE.

Simple and no bother at all.


I don't think that's a very balanced point of view... its not only the male that chooses the union, it is the woman as well. If the woman CHOSE not to have the union, then the whole situation would be void.

It is called a union for a reason: all decisions that arise from it should be done in union, just as the original act itself. By choosing to have the union, both participants should be able to have their say in the results from the union that they BOTH agreed to share.

If you believe that the only time the man has a choice is at the moment of the union, then it would only be fair that the woman has the choice at the same moment also.

What if both parents originally wanted the child, but after a few months of pregnancy, the woman decided otherwise and had an abortion?

Men just aren't walking sperm banks... they can share just as much responsibility and emotional connection to their child as their mother.



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