Europe divorcing America

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
I also never said my country is a saint compared to yours i merely pointed out it was better at battling corruption or at least we seem to be and you have yet to actually respond to the arguments made.

When all you are saying is that it "seems" to you that your country is better at battling corruption, there is really not much to argue with is there?

I've already made it clear that I disagree, in the posts above.

I'm not the only American to consider your country socialist by our standards.

Originally posted by OLD HIPPY DUDE
As an american I would hope America gets allimony and chid support especially for saving them in WWII.

Again a Hollywood myth is perpetuated.

But WWII history gets distorted everywhere, you name it. Japan, US, Egypt, Israel...

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
I also never said my country is a saint compared to yours i merely pointed out it was better at battling corruption or at least we seem to be and you have yet to actually respond to the arguments made.

When all you are saying is that it "seems" to you that your country is better at battling corruption, there is really not much to argue with is there?

I've already made it clear that I disagree, in the posts above.

I'm not the only American to consider your country socialist by our standards.

I used the word seems, this does not make the point any last valid. For example it seems a spike through the hand is more painful than a needle in the arm. It's interesting to see once again how you utterly avoid an actual reply though lol obviously your position has no validity.

Yes you disagree and i disagree with you, that is why i reply and that is why it's called debate. As for you not being the only american to think we're socialist, well that's fine and dandy. In equal measure i'm not the only European who thinks the USA is terribly corrupt compared to how many European countries are run, does this make either of us correct? Nope. If however we go by the recent legal action in the UK against elected representatives vs the complete lack of any real legal action in the USA it would seem we are trying to deal with our corruption in a far better way than you are

You talk about your standards, well many americans standards involve letting people die without medical care because well, screw them basically. Yeah i really value your standards.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


Well that's why I said, you can think what you want man, and enjoy your IngSoc. At least we're all grateful for our countries.

And yes I know mine is corrupt as hell, so do most Americans. I just think it's funny you refuse to admit yours is just as bad. But I'm through arguing about it. Think what you want. I'm still glad I don't live there.

[edit on 17-4-2010 by bsbray11]

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


Truly there is no anger on my part old chap.
Weekends I usually enjoy doing yard work , but it's raining here , so I am enjoying the entertainment that you europeans are providing.

And as far as the FACTS of WWII...

The war started in 1939 when Germany invaded Poland.

Part of the reason for going to war against the Germany, Japan and Italy. In March 1940: the Lend-Lease act was passed stating Roosevelt could direct aid to whomever he wanted. This meant that the US was no longer neutral. The US ended up contributing 42 billion dollars to the war effort by 1945. With Hitler taking over Europe, FDR saw fit to aid the British and French troops with arms, etc.

So though america didn't officially enter the war till 1941 America foot the bill for allied forces for 2 years before it entered.


U-Boats were active from the first day of the war to the last. The menace provoked Winston Churchill to write, "The threat the U-Boats posed in the Atlantic was the only thing that really frightened me during the war. On their defeat hung the outcome of World War II
B-24 Liberator (19200) - 4-engine very long range heavy bomber since mid 1941, carrying up to 6 tons of bombs. It was the allied bomber with the longest range during most of the war, and was used accordingly in all war fronts, both in very long range bombing missions, such as attacking Nazi Germany's only natural source of oil, in Ploesti, Romania, and by very long range anti-submarine patrols all over the Atlantic Ocean, which greatly contributed to defeating the German submarines.

US would use Britain as a base for air raids later in the war. These air raids destroyed the German economy, destroying major cities and industrial areas. The US had unlimited resources and manpower plus were geographically advantaged as they were isolated from any attack.


France was invaded in 1940 and London was also being bombed in 1940.


And europeans think they held off germany without americas help , I think without Americas money and supplys,
europeans would have been goose stepping by 1942.

reply to post by bsbray11


Well! I don't know if this is going to help your debate, but I would like to say something about our media.

I think what this other guy meant was - In some places in Europe we call it the 4th branch of Government.

This don't mean they are actually ARE a branch of the Government, it means they are the people's control OF our Government with investigating journalism etc.

This is true for certain trusthworty "newspapers" we have here in different countries - they usually expose the wrong-doing and corruption of the Government. Our public Television investigating journalism is often quite good doing this also, but not as good as the newspapers though!

Whereas in America you USED to be very good doing this, but lately it seems that all your private media's opinions & news are bought and corrupt! - and are controlled and is mostly writing what they are being told by their owners & what the masters wants. (IMO more than the Euro media)

Beside that! - we have more public owned media outlets - balancing our private media as well!

Your Washington Times were once very good with investigation journalism bringing such scandals into the light!

Nowadays! the US media is like a brainwashing propaganda machine in my opinion - more than the Euro media in my opinion!

[edit on 17-4-2010 by Chevalerous]

Originally posted by Chevalerous
Nowadays! the US media is like a brainwashing propaganda machine in my opinion - more than the Euro media in my opinion!

I was talking about this earlier. I know US MSM is brainwashing people. They use a LOT of psychology. There are even YouTube videos analyzing it.

But do you seriously not think that media in Europe is completely untouched by this? It isn't owned by corporations who suffer conflicts of interest? They don't use psychology? They don't report on stupid things no one should care about, while ignoring things they should be reporting on?

The only difference is your media is more sly about it, while ours is more blatant and in-your-face. But all the same things are still there. We get BBC here in the US. It's a tamer version of Fox News. Like the difference between SNL and Monty Python.

reply to post by bsbray11


Read my post again! I'm not talking especially about television news from BBC - Europe is quite big you know! very different news outlets based in many different countries with conflicting agendas and interests to the English BBC.

Most of it comes from investigating journalism from different newspaper in different countries so we can cross check the information, it's not so easy to hide the truth here in Europe as in the U.S press for the moment.

And they know this - that's why they don't cross the lines often with blatant lies and propaganda because that would certainly backfire against them. Most Europeans would not buy it!

This work as long as the ownership of these news outlets are of this diversity that we have - but as soon someone as Murdoch or similar would buy all our newspapers & media outlets, this diversity would certainly end.

(Italy is therefore in danger because of this right now - but thankfully they haven't crossed the line too much because Berlusconi knows that the Italians can get news from outside of Italy - so they can't lie too much or have too blatant propaganda - they are just refusing to report badly about Berlusconi)

This fact that it comes from different countries makes it easier for the truth from investigating journalism to come to light!

What I'm talking about here is old school 'investigating journalism' which the U.S 'USED' to be very good at before the corporations and your Military Industrial Complex took complete control over the flow of your information.

But of course! BBC is not as god as they used to be! - it's too controlled by the British Intelligence services these days.

But the point is - BBC is not the norm for all of Europe! thankfully!

[edit on 18-4-2010 by Chevalerous]

reply to post by bsbray11


Look at the blatant propaganda of someone like Bill O'Reilly on Fox News in comparison with the BBC. The BBC are wonderfully impartial, and are a respected media outlet all around the world; a testiment to their impartiality. It is funded by the British people through the TV tax. Money well spent, better than being brainwashed.

Oh, and Americans, the NHS rocks, saved my life and my ability to walk, everyone here thinks so, so go project your ffailings on something else.

reply to post by Chevalerous


I agree, in general European news organisations are more impartial than their American equivalents; just look at the Russian news agency 'RT'; really good English language news,robably rivaling the BBC in impartiality.

Originally posted by Chevalerous
Read my post again! I'm not talking especially about television news from BBC - Europe is quite big you know! very different news outlets based in many different countries with conflicting agendas and interests to the English BBC.

Right, and we have more than Fox News. I was just comparing the two.

We also have grassroots media. I consider ATS equivalent to this. This is where I get most of my news. And I live in America!

Mostly from investigating journalism from different newspaper in different countries so we can cross check the information, it's not so easy to hide the truth here in Europe as in the U.S press for the moment.

I think you are still really over-estimating your own media. It's not like I haven't seen this before and I know you guys make it a point amongst yourselves that your media is better than in the US. It may be. But you know that's not really saying a whole damned lot.

Originally posted by FullMechaPilot!
Look at the blatant propaganda of someone like Bill O'Reilly on Fox News in comparison with the BBC. The BBC are wonderfully impartial, and are a respected media outlet all around the world; a testiment to their impartiality. It is funded by the British people through the TV tax. Money well spent, better than being brainwashed.

I don't watch Fox News.

You must be joking that the BBC is "wonderfully impartial."

You might as well be here in the US praising Fox News. Which you probably would be if you were born here, either that or CNN.

reply to post by bsbray11


Well! I'm not fighting you! my post regarding this was only some educational information about the diversity of our European media which is not entirely corrupt in every country, or controlled all over Europe, at the same time! - YET!

But sadly if we look at the trend, more and more of the big media "corporations" are buying up newspapers and are trying to expand their influence in the private European media market as well.

That's why I'm thankful that not every news outlets here are owned by the sphere of American influenced agenda & private corporations, which are driven mainly & soley by soulless unfretted hyper-capitalism.

And the "big" corporations" thankfully doesn't own ALL of our main mainstream media yet! - many are still family owned with loyal shareholders who do not like to sell out because they defend the free word and investigating journalism. Some are also owned by intellectual public (less profit) organisations & interests and/or the workers Unions.

And not everything is for sale - yet!

But of course! sometimes it's also controlled as in America, especially the TV news - just look at the Pandemic we just had! - too much agenda and propaganda even here in Europe!

It all depend which agenda and news we are blasted with for the moment - if the agenda comes from the top of the pyramid and TPTB - then we are all screwed - no matter which news network, Public TV News or newspapers unfortunately.

[edit on 18-4-2010 by Chevalerous]

reply to post by Chevalerous


I think the bottom line is the problem is not between different countries but between "peasants" and "elite." We know media becomes corrupted, and we know it isn't the masses of people corrupting it for the benefit of all.

It's an age-old problem but in the digital age, in the globalization age, it's becoming increasingly magnified and intensified as more and more information leads more and more people to pay attention to these troubling issues.

We both have messed up! We both have populations just as equally ignorant! We're both controlled by a select group of people! We're both in the middle east (not just the US last time I checked)! We've both committed war crimes! This list can go on forever. America and Europe are more alike than we would like to acknowledge. Frankly, I really don't care. I love Europe and I love the US. They both have their pluses and their bad. Stop fighting over who is better! We're all the same. We're all people! Strip away our flesh and national identity and we're all the same.

Originally posted by bsbray11
You can have as much comfort as you want in your IngSoc, brother, and thinking that your country is a saint compared to the US. Your government pretty much already is socialist. At least I'm still allowed to buy hand guns and have blades longer than so many inches, but I'm sure you already think those are awful freedoms too.

I usually respect your posts in most threads dude but Iv read back through this thread and you are actually just making up a problem and jumping to conclusions as to what others mean..

Also, when one American offends someone and they reply, you are jumping in with an offensive attempt at putting them down without seeing what they are replying to..

A lot of what you are saying makes sense yes but it is obviously being used in a wannabe condescending and borderline viscous and childish way..

And yes, I do see the other posts that are doing the same, its just that I expected better from you tbh.. especially when ImaginaryReality isn't actually even returning your insults for the most part..

Originally posted by bsbray11

I'm not the only American to consider your country socialist by our standards.

Well then your grasp and theirs on what Socialism is is a bit off to be perfectly honest.. And IMO, if an American called my country socialist, I would laugh my ass off.. Its a buzz word in the US, there's not even a fixed definition over there, its a boogeyman word.. Its used in the most laughable of circumstances.. Like terrorist and extremist..

And whats the problem with a social safety net? If you don't want to end up in an argument or slagging match with a European person, then don't bring up the fact that they don't mind using their tax money to help out those less fortunate in their country.. Even if a tiny tiny minority are leechers..

Because that will only get the reply along the lines of stupid, imperialist, arrogant, greedy Yank..



[edit on 18/4/10 by Dermo]

Originally posted by OLD HIPPY DUDE
reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

 

And what blinds europeans?

The sun shining out of America's arse.

Originally posted by grey580
reply to post by mackey1224uk

 

Oh common man now you're dreaming. Can you sit there and tell me that it wouldn't of been a matter of time before Hitler took care of europe. Built up it's military again and crushed the UK?
That's what I would of done. And then after crushing the UK. I would of Nuked the united states if I was Hitler.

Think man. If not for US intervention in the war. The UK population would be speaking German now.

[edit on 13-4-2010 by grey580]

It really would be a good idea to actually have knowledge about something before you start blathering on about it.

See, Britain won her war before the USA even entered. Ever heard of a thing called The Battle of Britain? Guess what, Britain won, meaning Hitler moved away from the UK to concentrate on Russia. So no, the USA didn't save Britain in any way shape or form (we had even won the battle of the Atlantic before you entered), you did however help the British commonwealth, Russia, The Free French, Free Poles etc win the war in Europe and Japan and well done for that but don't pretend you are some World saviour, unless you are going to claim the same about the above mentioned countries.

Now, if anyone has any right to suggest they saved the UK, that would be the Canadians, Aussies, Indians etc.

Originally posted by Reign02
reply to post by Drexl

 

Actually Americans and the English are not different at all. I have been stationed in England for the last two years and it is just like being in America, just less crime. It is not that different

You might want to rethink that. Britain has higher crime rates than the USA, especially in violent crime. Of course though the murder rates in the USA are much higher.

This is one thing about the USA, you have been indoctrinated by your media and your movies to believe that you live in the most crime ridden cess pool on Earth, with roaming gangs on ever street, bankrobbers in ever bank etc. It just isn't true as crime rates prove.

I do think though that Brits have more in common with Americans than they do with much of Europe, apart maybe from the Germans. But, after all, we are one big not always happy family, aren't we?

reply to post by triplesod


Surely, as usual, there's a little truth on both sides.

Yes, we were able to hold off Hitler until his interest switched to Russia. What would have happened if he had ignored the Russians and kept the assault going at full strength is difficult to say.

As for whether we needed the US, it's worth pointing out that Churchill thought he needed the US. There's a well-known conversation with his son recorded in Martin Gilbert's biography (vol 6, ch18);
The date of this is May 1940.

"He flung his Valet razor in to the basin, swung round, and said- 'Of course I mean we can beat them.'
Me; 'Well, I'm all for it, but I don't see how you can do it.'
By this time he had dried and sponged his face and turning round to me, said with great intensity;- 'I shall drag the United States in'".

With a little help from the Japanese, that was exactly what he did.






[edit on 18-4-2010 by DISRAELI]