WikiLeaks plans to post video showing US massacre of Afghani civilians

Originally posted by BrianInRI

Originally posted by smurfy

Originally posted by BrianInRI

Originally posted by devildogUSMC


I think it would be safe to assume that this is for real considering the track record for wikileaks. I only wonder the conditions not seen in the tape after the latest video debates. Some good points were made that we have no idea what the conditions in that particular area being videoed are the rest of the day, week, or month that is not being recorded. It did expose some definite wrongdoing on the other side. If this video comes to light and we see what is described, will anyone be held accountable?

rawstory.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

they don't need to incite the whole world, just Americans. It's a purely hypothetical scenario, but in the espionage game there are double/ triple/ quadruple agents etc. The information that's out there is difficult to disseminate in a way that will allow you to rely on that information and make decisions that will benefit you and yours lives. The age of information also paves the way for the age of disinformation.

We can just give them a couple sheep and they will forgive us(emphasis on sarcasm). I really hope this video doesn't show what they say it will. It seems as if TPTB are allowing this type of information out to get people fired up, start a revolution and get out from under a financial crisis by starting a "Second American Revolution". There are rumors that Wiki is a CIA front and in these days/times it's getting harder and harder to pin down true motives.

That doesn't make any sense, why not just give it to Reuters anonymously , (who first asked for it, but didn't get it) and it would have been seen all over the world on a much bigger scale

Somehow my response got chopped, but I will try to summarize. Basically to form a solid opinion on a developing issue may be shortsighted. In the age oc information it lends to the age of disinformation. I'm not saying what happened is true or false, just that there is still room for this to play out and you don't really know the motivation behind it.

reply to post by devildogUSMC


If this video is real then the only people that should ever see it are those who were filmed and their commanders period! If they really killed "innocent civilians" then yes they should be held accountable...

Every insurgent caught fighting over there claims that they are just that, innoncent...

YHEA RIGHT!

You people must really hate our troops to want this video made public!

You want "The world to see what bloodthirsty killers American soldiers are."

reply to post by BrianInRI
Hi Brian,
I don't want to reproduce all that posting again, so just a reply.

I think most people go for all the double, quadruple etc; agent stuff. But that doesn't answer my pretty simple question, why not give the video to Reuters anon, when they asked for it some time ago? Also there is the military response at the time as saying they were identified AFTER as named insurgents, there is no initial indentification before the shootings by helicopter video men. It's wonderful the technology of the supreme killing machine that can't put a name to the face, but then I suppose if you are not an Iraqi, they all look like Saadam Hussein.
edit to add, I see your second posting now. We know all about info and disinfo, especially on the internet and we have all been victims of it at some stage or another, but it still does not answer my tiny little question as above.

[edit on 13-4-2010 by smurfy]

reply to post by Niccawhois


I can definitely see the point you are making man. This type of evidence/video is something terrorist and insurgent organizations would pay literally millions for. It is the ultimate propaganda tool for recruiting those still on the fence about taking up arms against coalition forces.

I can't say that warrants the repression of said video though. I'm talking from a level-headed and neutral perspective, and believe me, I have every right to comment on the current situation in the middle east as well as our military and the two "wars" we are fighting...enough said.

People do need to see what exactly happens in war. If video technology was as good in WWII as it is today, I believe people would have a different perspective on that conflict, especially the European theater.
The inaccurate bombs of that day were layed on so thick over populated cities all across Europe that it would make any of the airstrikes we utilize today look like M-80's dropped from hot air balloons. I'm talking millions of people just decimated when an entire city is leveled to take out 5 factories and some supply depots.

My point being that both sides should view this neutrally, and understand exactly the consequences of sending armed men who are trained to kill into combat. War is hell. It is the worst manifestation of human ingenuity that exists, and people just trying to live in peace end up being blown to bits as a result, no matter what side of the line you are on.

Unfortunately we have proven ourselves generally incapable of keeping a neutral stance in matters such as this and it will inevitably lead to more bloodshed, again, on both sides of the line.

Until we run out of powder and lead this cycle is going to continue and until we can come together on peaceful terms as a species, civilians will pay the price right alongside soldiers.

[edit on 13-4-2010 by Shark VA84]

I am not sure, but is this the bombing that took place a while back where the German Army called in an airstrike on a convoy? I believe that the casualty figure was close to this.

The problem they had with that was that they were tracking a stolen fuel truck and called in the airstrike. You can only guess what happens when a bomb hits a fuel tanker. The issues as I remember was sorting out who were insurgents and who were bystanders that were caught in the blast.

There was quite a bit of backlash over this as I remember. Even though it was an American strike, it was called in by the Germans. I believe it happened right after the ROE was changed on airstrikes.

reply to post by Awory


I just copied and pasted from "David9176"'s post on the 1st page of this thread.

US Denies 147 Civilians Killed in Afghan Violence


Video of the aftermath of a disputed incident involving American forces and the Taliban shows bloodied bodies of children laid out with other corpses, confirming international Red Cross findings at the two remote villages in western Afghanistan. The U.S. military does not contest that civilians died but called "extremely over-exaggerated" a report by an Afghan official that as many as 147 were killed. Afghans blame aerial bombing Monday and Tuesday for the deaths and destruction. President Hamid Karzai said the airstrikes were "not acceptable" and said the government estimated the number of civilian deaths to be 125 to 130, according to an interview with CNN on Friday. "We cannot justify in any manner, for whatever number of Taliban, for whatever number of significantly important terrorists, the accidental or otherwise loss of civilians," he was quoted as saying.


abcnews.go.com...

That is the incident referred to.

reply to post by Niccawhois


Well, It depends, I mean there would be signs that there was an insurgent in the area. That would be signified by perhaps them (the insurgents) firing first.

I mean the troops won't look like a bunch of bloodthirsty killers if they didn't fire the first shot would they?

The troops are not innocent either btw. I know that because I personally know people who only joined the marines because they would get to kill people and blow stuff up. I'm sure this is not uncommon.

I respect and support the troops, but we cannot just sit back and let them run around like it's recess. There must be order, and rules.

You seem to forget that their actions represent me and every other American. Personally I want to make sure that I'm represented in an honorable fashion. I do not want to be portrayed as a trigger happy redneck, which has become a common consensus.

Or is that "Sickening" too?

If the soldiers actions where justified then I'm sure that fact will come to light soon enough.

[edit on 13-4-2010 by DaMod]

Originally posted by David9176
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

These videos are important to watch...even if its a clear mistake...

I hope we don't see children being killed...man that's not good at all and the last thing I want to see....although if it happened....it needs to be seen so people would get off their warmongering craziness and come to their senses.

Childen or no children, they were all children once. Age is irrelevant, right?

[edit on 13-4-2010 by _Phoenix_]

reply to post by Niccawhois



First, thank you for serving in the military, for the having the guts
to lay your life on the life to protect me and mine.

Also, I agree with you about who should see the video, and your reasoning
behind it.

However, (I just hate this type of post where a compliment is paid and then
comes the ~but~)...but,

The reason you are fighting, and risking your life, is of utmost importance.
It is important to support you, as is the ideal of supporting all of our troops,
however supporting a war is a different thing.

The cause that sent you to war is suspect. The reason you and others are risking their lives is questionable. I will qualify this by stating that I, and
many Americans cannot understand our leader's reasoning in engaging in
this war.

From the onset of the war fought in Iraq, we were lied to, coerced,
manipulated, and led by the bit (blinders on) into supporting war.
The occupation of Iraq, the bombing of Afghanistan, and the ongoing
campaign, seems to have NO other purpose that to eradicate
potential terrorists. Sadly and truthfully, what we are doing is probably
creating new terrorists.

As careful as you and your fellow soldiers may be, civilian casualty
is a product of war. Imagine if this occupation was occurring on American
soil, and imagine if your loved ones were harmed in the name of removing
a dictator, or because you lived adjacent a cave where a terrorist may be
hiding, how would it affect you.

My point is, while I truly support and applaud you, I DO NOT blindly
support American governance, nor the reasons for this "War on Terror".
If I did so, I would be doing a disservice to you and all the men and
women who fight, and have fought, for my freedom. Your life, and its
importance should not be placed on the line without just cause. I am serving
and supporting you by adhering to this tenet.

Sadly, it is hard to sway the sentiment of the American people without
provocative video of atrocities of war. and this video and others serves
that purpose. I WANT YOU TO COME HOME. I DO NOT WANT YOU IN HARMS
WAY WITHOUT JUST CAUSE. And I can see no just cause for the war
you are engaged in.

Supporting a war, and supporting the troops, are two separate things.

Originally posted by SPYvsSPY

Originally posted by neechi
How is this a shock to any of you? During ww2 in dresdan we killed 100,000 civilians...who complained then? I'm sorry but this is how war goes, if they were to come on american soil do u think civilians would be safe? Not at all....

just to make it clear, the British bombed Dresdan. The British bombed at night.... it was payback for the Germans bombing of London.

What the heck!?

Dresden was bombed both by the RAF AND The United States Eighth Air Force.

The Eighth Air Force participated with more than thousands aircrafts bombing Dresden between 13 - 15 of February 1945.

More than 4.500 tons of bombs was dropped, almost 50 % of those bombs on Dresden were incendiaries and women & children were burned alive in those awful firestorms - a truly disgusting act of terror against the civilian population IMHO!

Here is some interesting information regarding this:

The Dresden Holocaust - 'A Single Column Of Flame' Kurt Vonnegut, Jr

And the new Wikileaks story about the massacre in Afghanistan will surely draw some interest, when is it due to be released?

[edit on 13-4-2010 by Chevalerous]

Originally posted by DaMod
reply to post by Niccawhois

 

You seem to forget that their actions represent me and every other American. Personally I want to make sure that I'm represented in an honorable fashion. I do not want to be portrayed as a trigger happy redneck, which has become a common consensus.

Or is that "Sickening" too?

WOW! Your image > DEAD SOLDIERS
You are flipping unreal, I refuse to believe that you are serious...

I have to go with rival on this one. Not only is the cause questionable, but the desired outcome also in my opinion.
I also have to ask would it not be a clever ploy from TPTB in the States to raise such a loud and decisive global objection and demand for the troops to be recalled, just to have said troops back on American soil when they decide to declare a state of emergency due to domestic terrorists?
Not just any troops but troops trained and seasoned to be conditioned to be either controlling and/or killing civilians upon order?
I understand this might be offensive to some here, but are the troops not doing the above mentioned activities already in Afghanistan & Iraq?
Is not Wikilinks just doing what it says it would do, however sensationalistsic like they do?
Maybe these things need to be exposed for the greater good of all mankind, period.
And I do get tired of hearing about how the soldiers who are getting killed and mangeled by the insurgents over in these far away lands. Last I checked, military service is still voluntary, not manditory. There is no draft. And before yall start flaming me, yes I was also in the military. Though still in training during the first Gulf War, and didn't have to experience the horror of these illegitamit wars.

I don't think the American citizenry will react as strongly as some think. They have been desensitized to these sorts of things for years and years. Maybe it will be different if they actually take the time to completely process and understand that these things don't have to be happening.

Has anyone heard anything about Wikilleaks announcing a date for this video to be released or is it still undetermined?

reply to post by Niccawhois


Innocent civilian lives > Voluntary combatant lives.

High ups in the military are not interested in punishing soldiers over these sort of videos. If it is not for public outcry, these cowboys will be able to maintain their murderous fun (the Apache gunners were loving it).

I am neither from the Middle East nor USA/Briton so have no horse in this race, therefore an unbiased opinion. If the release of this video saves future innocent lives at the cost of soldiers lives then so be it. They're voluntarily invading someone else's country and creating a war-zone. Most of us just want to live in peace. Innocents don't ask to be dragged into your fake war. They are not fighting "terrorists" they are fighting freedom fighters. In any country in the world that was illegally invaded people would take up arms to kill as many of the invaders as they could and probably take great satisfaction in ridding some of the scum. If heavy troop casualties puts extra pressure on command to pull out and extra public outcry to pull out then this will save more lives, both combatant and non-combatant, in the long run. It would also lessen the number of brainwashed teenagers signing up to go legally murder a bunch of people that look different to them and have a different culture to them.

An example Americans can relate to is the rogue/militia/insurgent killing of Nazis, especially Quentin Tarantino style (yes I know it's a fictional film). Even though a lot of the Nazis were stupid and ignorant enough to buy Hitler's propaganda and thought they were doing good for their homeland, they were still less than scum and deserved to painfully and brutally die.

How many parallels can be drawn between Nazi Germany and present day USA? US forces in the war on terror have literally killed hundreds of times more innocent civilians than the number of US nationals killed worldwide by terrorists ever. Who are the real terrorists?

We all know the war on terror is fake anyway. When is it going to be renamed to the War on Oil and Opium? Over the counter Paracetamol kills far, far more US Nationals each year than "terrorists" do. Where's the war on Paracetamol? (Healthier alternatives exist.) Why was "terrorism" not all over the news 10+ years ago? I'd be pretty pissed too if some GI-Joe wannabes (was gona say something that rhymes with tags) came to my country to steal its resources and started indiscriminately killing my neighbors and friends. We all would.

There are two types of people in the world; those that can see it for what it is, and the majority that let their beliefs and emotions cloud their judgment. It is obvious what category a "Patriot" like yourself falls into.

Sorry if this post angers anyone, it's a harsh reality (if you disagree, your brain has a mechanism of blocking painful or belief contrary information anyway, anger will be natural to allow you to cope). Wars have been fought since the beginning of time but hopefully at some point those who haven't yet will evolve to the point where they can live in peace with their fellow man.

Peace out (the rest of us are).

[edit on 15-4-2010 by Azp420]

this makes me absolutely sick...
The government of our country is so corrupt..
not only do they KNOW what GOES ON..
they order our troops to do itl.

reply to post by sKATiNwHENiCAN


And then they cover it up, deny it, or try to make it look like something else. I'm editing to add a second line.

[edit on 15-4-2010 by devildogUSMC]

Originally posted by Chevalerous

Originally posted by SPYvsSPY

Originally posted by neechi
How is this a shock to any of you? During ww2 in dresdan we killed 100,000 civilians...who complained then? I'm sorry but this is how war goes, if they were to come on american soil do u think civilians would be safe? Not at all....

just to make it clear, the British bombed Dresdan. The British bombed at night.... it was payback for the Germans bombing of London.

What the heck!?

The Eighth Air Force participated with more than thousands aircrafts bombing Dresden between 13 - 15 of February 1945.

More than 4.500 tons of bombs was dropped, almost 50 % of those bombs on Dresden were incendiaries and women & children were burned alive in those awful firestorms - a truly disgusting act of terror against the civilian population IMHO!

Here is some interesting information regarding this:

The Dresden Holocaust - 'A Single Column Of Flame' Kurt Vonnegut, Jr

And the new Wikileaks story about the massacre in Afghanistan will surely draw some interest, when is it due to be released?14 Feb 1945 the RAF droped 2659 tons of HEI on the city center of Dresden. The US 8th AIR FORCE bombed the railways and industrial areas. The US did what they could not to become involved in the slauter under limted command.

[edit on 13-4-2010 by Chevalerous]

I believe that showing these kinds of media that bring light to what exactly happens over there will open some eyes to the grim reality that wars affect civilian populations first and foremost, directly and indirectly, and although our poor soldiers come back with lists of problems, our "opponents" too suffer with these same impediments and to some extent worse. War is a human phenomena unlike any other. It is a human condition. The unfortunate thing in our situation is that we, the real people of the United States, the peaceful, seeking true freedom, we are the ones with the dilemma. Our tax money goes to buy bombs and supply foreign dictatorships with funds and resources to oppress thier own people into accepting our American freedom. We are the little guys. The big guys are the ones who start these wars, then make money off the various contracts that are sold to supply and keep the war going. In this respect, I can only quote Pompey Magnus, or Pompey the Great as history knows him, who summed it up best in terms of how power plays into this, while campaigning in Sicily to secure Rome's grain supply circa 82 BC. While being approached by Sicilian citizens claiming that he was heavy handed and that his methods of Governship were harsh and how Roman law protected them from such harshness, he famously said:

"Wont you stop citing laws, to us who have swords by our sides?"

reply to post by theillestomen


Isn't that the truth. This kind of ideaology is exactly why the second ammendment is constantly under attack. They want to be the only ones with swords so we will stop citing laws.