I love the way that anyone that does not approve of this idea, for whatever reason is a biggot.....homophobe....hater

In my posts in this thread and other related ones, i have never said "hate fags" or "gays are wrong/bad", nor have i said anything about "god says....."
or tried to be "moral" about this.

I have never proposed removal or anthing from any gay person, nor advocated mistreatment of gays of any kind.

Yet ive been called BIGGOT several times....for disagreeing on the principal of democracy in practice, and cultural rights to self determination....and in this case....parents rights to at least be made aware of questionable content in childrens programming.

For all of you "biggots" that are trying to FORCE your adgendas that think this idea, or gay ideals in general are NOT questionable...think again...

IF there were no question as to say gay marriage (a legal boundary) then WHY has EVERY gay marriage certificate issued anywhere in the USA now beenfrozen in courts? BECAUSE THERE ARE QUESTIONS about these issues.

As this is but one facet of a "gay rights adgenda" (lacking a better term)
we should all agree this "adgenda" still seems questionable on many facets.

If we agree on this point, then we should default to what we do know, and that is PARENTAL rights to be informed about media content...(the rating system) should be used untill such time as things settle one way or the other.

Labeling everyone that disagrees a bigot, hater, or any other slur shows that YOU have have given those youve judged no respect to their rights to hold that opinion. (you dont have to agree with their ideas, but you should allow them to be expressed without negative labeling.)

M' lady says,
"Really CazMedia, I have no time for silly comments and verbal bitch slapping"
You didnt come into the MUDPIT and think things wouldnt get dirty did you?
By the way, i considered the first 2/3 of your last post to be not part of the original thread and classify them as silly comments...but hey, who am i to not get muddy in the pit? Throw back all youd like....i think im beginning to understand COLONEL a little more....LOL

M'lady again,
"Only homophobics would find this a problem, and they are the people that need to be educated against these silly ideas that they have in their heads. "

Im not a "phobe", i have gay friends, my uncle is gay, im surounded by gays at work, ive hung out at gay nightclubs with friends ect ect ect....Yet i have a problem with this idea.
Also,
Why is only one side in need of education on this issue? No one is excluded from the need for education.

Earthtone,
the thread is fine right here, why would you want to burry it in a lesser viewed place??? I say lets get MORE people into the debate....(I agree that this is media related, but the extended conversations relating to but not specificly about gay kids tv opens this up to the M-PIT)
Man Earth...so far ive agreed with you (at least on a minor issue) and given you a compliment (one that agreeing again with you that "some might even call that a compliment")
I really am trying to be civil in this discussion, yet you brandish me a biggot/hater.....Perhaps this is why i stepped up my rhetoric with M'ladycool....tired of bieng name called, so fight fire with fire.

SweatM,
You,
"You? One of the toughest banterers on ATS? Wow, a legend in his own mind.

You really ought to go on CNN or something. They could use someone like you.

As far as my ledgend goes...never sell yourself short....LOL
and,
I have done work for CNN, but now I'm at a different big 3 network. (we have affiliations with CNN) As a +10 yr member of the broadcast media....i do not speak from a vaccume on this TV related issue....there is enourmous preassure from special interest groups (PARENTAL GROUPS in this case) about programming issues. MORE so that about gay issues by far.
Who do you think the $$$ grubbing networks (and other types of media ownerships) are going to listen to.....
the largest demographic for their nielsen ratings of course...

Originally posted by earthtone
Hmm. maybe this should be moved the the media section as it is concerning the use of Gay characterisation in T.V, not about the moral debate about being gay. Mods? Can it be done to help this discussion a lil' bit?

[edit on 6/11/2004 by earthtone]

No offence intended , but I did not see this as a moral debate about being Gay . I think it just went off in an odd direction and people get mighty defensive when you don't think the same as they do .

Although some responces have been transparently clear as to peoples (or persons) homophobic oppinions , I thought the subject was more about chidren and the parents right to selectivly choose media content that may be not only be confusing to children , but against the parents choices of what they choose to expose their children to .

Granted , most if not all , children are going to be exposed to some type of homosexual relationships long before they have become adults whether it be a friend with 2 "mums" or another with two fathers , or being a child of a same sex couple .

They are not going to be able to form a "real" oppinion until they have matured enough mentaly to make an informed decision , and until then they are guided by the parents belief system and teachings (right , wrong , accepting , or discriminating) .

The movie rating system (strage as it is) lists very clearly the themes that "may not be suitable for children" . Language / violence / nudity / "epic battle scenes" / sexual situations / etc. are topics that need to be viewed with discretion by anyone , child , adolescent , and adult .

I beleive this is to protect them from themes and images that they may not be able to mentally comprehend yet .

The "sexual situation" in question should be deemed appropriate or not to be viewed by children by the parents only IMO . They can form their own oppinion when they become capable .

I am sure it would be difficult for a parent to try to explain what may be terribly confusing to their children when it is introduced abruptly .

I consider this a PG-13 rating that needs censorship if the parent sees fit , and although you can't stop what kids learn from friends or on the school yard , a parent should be informed of content like this in the opening credits .

I do support same sex partnerships .

The censoring comes from parents (in a perfect world). I already cut shows I don't want my 3 1/2 year old to watch. I would do it with this show too.

But you'll not see me stopping them from doing it.

A little advance info would help you edit though?

You couldn't edit this one without a bit of forehand knowledge , and then how do you explain to a tot who's favorite word is ...."why?"

I would not try to stop them either , just a little more "mature subject" information .

Originally posted by oddtodd
A little advance info would help you edit though?

You couldn't edit this one without a bit of forehand knowledge , and then how do you explain to a tot who's favorite word is ...."why?"

I would not try to stop them either , just a little more "mature subject" information .

That's easy to solve.

Connor: Daddy, why does she have two mommies?

Me: Shut up

Connor: Awwww

Me: Want to ride your bike?

We both walk away and he never remembers saying it.

Originally posted by CazMedia
I In my posts in this thread and other related ones, i have never said "hate fags" or "gays are wrong/bad", nor have i said anything about "god says....."

Caz, chill out. Most of my 'name calling' was used with a more general perspective. As for others, well .

Originally posted by KrazyJethro

That's easy to solve.

Connor: Daddy, why does she have two mommies?

Me: Shut up

Connor: Awwww

Me: Want to ride your bike?

We both walk away and he never remembers saying it.

That doesn't solve the equation. This question will come up again, either to you, or worse a friend that has no idea himself. Now at a young age your child has a view of gays that is totally off base. I said earlier in this thread how it was dealt with with our kids, honestly. And this is funny, last night as I was scanning this thread, no lie, my wife was flipping through the VOD to see what was on. There it was on channel 209, and my 10 year old girl says," Will & Grace, Mommy, let's watch Will & Grace." She knows what it is to be gay,it doesn't bother her, as it shouldn't.

Originally posted by CazMedia
GAYS ARE INTOLORANT!!!

Remeber, ONE aspect of why fundamentalist radical jihadist muslims call the USA the great satan, is because they dont tolorate homosexuality, and we do...we're getting ready to legitimize and institutionalize this idea into our culture....then in their eyes, not only do we let homo's do whatever, but now we've put it into laws that support it. This has now gone from (providing gay items are legalized) a deviant sex practice to a part of what it means to be American.

Honestly, i as a non gay citizen look and see gays saying legitimize us, and terrorists trying to kill me because id allow you to be legit....

Hmm id rather hurt your feelings then be dead...soo because of the "gay face" the terrorists see, id have to say id rather show them a different face, and decline gay kids shows as well as gay marriage, in hopes that I can remove one of the obsticals as to why im being hunted.
I also rather hurt peoples feelings then allow our democratic principals to be nullified....no minority adgenda is worth sacrificing our democracy.

First, let me say that the first staement you made was so much bull# I can't even sit at my desk right now because of the stench. Let me ask you something Caz....if you had been born gay and have had to grow up with intollerance your whole life...wouldn't you be a little less tollerant to others also. Give me a break with your generalizations about all gay people being intollerent. In my experiences it has been the other way around my friend. Just because people are demanding to be treated as the same as the rest of the population does not make them intollerant.

Onto your second point in the quote. Well, the fundamentalist jihadists also don't want women to have rights as a man does. Does this mean we should not let women vote or make them wear a veil outdoors? In your sckewed logic it does. I don't want to be dead either because some fundamentalist sees America as the women loving country it is....so I say get rid of women's rights (joke). Your logic on that topic is also bull#. I guess you'd rather hurt women's feelings than be dead also.

Also, you want to talk about intollerance. Well, I think I'm going to get a bunch of my gay friends together and drive around in our car and the first straight couple we see, bash in their skulls with baseball bats (joke). When stuff like this starts happening then you can talk about gays being intollerant. You don't think this stuff happens? Well, I was gay bashed on Christmas eve. You think I really have tollerance for someone who would do this to a person? HELL NO. So until the shoe is on the other foot, I don't think you have any clue what tollerance/intollerance really is.

Originally posted by intrepid
That doesn't solve the equation. This question will come up again, either to you, or worse a friend that has no idea himself. Now at a young age your child has a view of gays that is totally off base. I said earlier in this thread how it was dealt with with our kids, honestly. And this is funny, last night as I was scanning this thread, no lie, my wife was flipping through the VOD to see what was on. There it was on channel 209, and my 10 year old girl says," Will & Grace, Mommy, let's watch Will & Grace." She knows what it is to be gay,it doesn't bother her, as it shouldn't.

First off it was a joke.

Second, he is only 3 1/2 with no concept of anything social. When he gets older I'll surely talk to him about it, but I see no need at this young an age.

MacMerdin,
Thats one hell of a cut and paste job you did on me there....you managed to link things out of context from 2 seperate examples i was making.
Selective editing eh? One of these ideas was about intolorance, the other about "harm" and prceptions of one society to another.
Isnt ommission a lie as well?

Just the fact that TWICE in THIS thread ive had to politley ask that the judgemental name calling be curtailed shows some of the intolorance i see exhibited from the gay community....they cant even talk rationally about this issue without calling people that have express NO hate twords them bigots, haters ect....in many pages on THIS thread, no one has pass a "right/wrong" judgment on gays...yet we've been labled.

I got 2 private, and one open responce to my stop the name calling request...they were appolojetic, but none was really needed (to me as i have thick skin)....THIS WAS MY POINT AND IM GLAD SOME REALIZED THAT THE NAME CALLING HAD THE POTENTIAL FOR "HARM". Its devicive.

Ive overheard gay guys say women were "moody bleeding hole bitches" that they would rather not be around, Ive heard lesbiens say similar things about men...(i feel i lost one job because the lezzie boss hired another lesbien to take my place)..Ive gotten into fights because i was the only white kid on the block, and also because i wouldnt let a group of white kids pick on a black kid....Ive had my stuff stolen while i lived in gov subsidised houseing by the kids from the middle class neighborhood....Ive known plenty of intollorance up close....

MacM says,
"if you had been born gay and have had to grow up with intolerance your whole life...wouldn't you be a little less tollerant to others also?"

Sure i could see where giving into defensive reactions or your own anger at being picked on could lead to this.....but is there an excuse for intolorance, regardless its cause? 2 wrongs making a right?
Intolorance is not limited to physical abuses.

MacM again,
"Just because people are demanding to be treated as the same as the rest of the population does not make them intollerant. "

NO it doesnt, untill the name calling starts...untill the behaivior becomes negative twords the other side...untill the tactics used to negotiate with the "rest" becomes more devicive than constructive....untill they allow themselves to become swept up in the same fever that those true bigots used against them.

Again i can say that gays have been very intolorant of the overall cultures right to self determination of societal "norms" thru democratic process. among other percieved intolorances such as total disreguard for someones religious beliefs (some say god says its wrong, but because you dont believe in their god or their rights to feel this way, gays will adopt an intolorant view of those people..dont try to tell me it hasnt happened, i see it on the streets, and manifest in the many threads concerning this issue. (this does not mean that the other side is not being just as intolorant, nor that I agree with those reasons)

I feel that your lumping those that would ytake hostile acts against someone (assault is assault regardless of the reason) with those that for other reasons do not wish to accomodate you. Wheres the tolorance between the 2 groups that disagree with you, or are we all the same to you?

Originally posted by CazMedia
One mans tolorance is another man's moral decay.



shows some of the intolorance i see exhibited from the gay community....

Ive overheard gay guys .........

Does this mean if I overhear a group of straight guys saying racist comments that everyone who is straight is a racist?

MacM says,
"if you had been born gay and have had to grow up with intolerance your whole life...wouldn't you be a little less tollerant to others also?"

This may happen, however I feel that many gay people/people with alternative lifestyles are very accepting of different things becuase they know how it feels to be on the 'outside' so tp speak. Obviously there will be people who turn their feelings of isolation into anger towards the majority.

Intolorance is not limited to physical abuses.

Exactely Caz, this is just as much about what isn't said as what is said, it is about a general feeling just as much as representation and treatement as I think I have already expressed to you.

MacM again,
"Just because people are demanding to be treated as the same as the rest of the population does not make them intollerant. "

NO it doesnt, untill the name calling starts...untill the behaivior becomes negative twords the other side

I would have thought that anybody claiming that your entire way of life is immoral would be your enemy, I would expect them to be angered by such people, what do you expect? Tolerance of those who do not tolerate your way of life? To some degree there has to be, but be reasonable.

Caz,

Where in any of my posts have I name called. I called your reasoning and your statements a name but never you personally. Also, I thought you were thick skinned? So again, when did I resort to name calling?

My point is: until you walk a mile in a mans shoes....you know the rest.

As far as gays being intollerant. Were black people tollerant of having to ride in the back of the bus or being linched for that matter? Hell no. So, why should gays be tollerant of a society that says we are 2nd class citizens for who we love?

People have a right to be angry when they feel like an outcast just becuase of who they are. you are right MacMerdin

Thanks Earthtone.

New line to have 2 lines so as not to get points taken.

Originally posted by MacMerdin
Thanks Earthtone.

New line to have 2 lines so as not to get points taken.

HeHe. Nice little trick you did there!

MacM says, "So, why should gays be tollerant of a society that says we are 2nd class citizens for who we love? "

EXCEPT for not having gay marriage totally legal at this point, please explain what "2nd class citizens" are and what treatment they are getting...there is no sanctioned, institutionalized cultural difference that i can percive other that personal bigotry,(from person to person, NOT from GOV to person)

The answer is,
How can you ask someone you dont respect for their existing cultural values, for acceptance/accomodations for your cause? Why ask if their not legitimate to start with in your eyes?
rephrased as;
if you dont respect thier right to cultural self determination to start with, how can you expect to be able to negotiate/compromise with them?
I.E. seems like your starting from the premise that the culture is wrong to hold this idea to start with, yet you want to ask them for accomodations to something youve already judged as wrong...

Im not saying that the culture is "right", im saying they have the right to hold that view..and by gays not accepting this right to start with....this is not tolorance, and begins this discussion with a wedge between the groups.

If your answering NO to a democratic cultures rights to self determination, then that opens a whole sociological/governmental systems can of worms as to exactly what gov/how is this culture to decide this issue?