Kenyan official: Obama born in KENYA

Originally posted by joey_hv

The short form ifs for those that don't have an original long form on file...ahem..cough! cough!..for one reason or another...

But in Hawaii they don't have long-form certificates. They haven't since 2001.

Did you see my post? Did you read this?

Care to address any of that?

How is Obama supposed to obtain his long-form certificate when such a certificate doesn't exist under Hawaii's paperless medical record system?

Ball's in your court buddy.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

Originally posted by Masterjaden
We have officials from two locations stating that he was born in two different locations. I would think that THAT alone would be enough to allow for further discovery????

Nope. You have one official left incharge of birth right in Hawaii, somebody with definate access to birth records, who verified Obama's birth in Hawaii. Then you have an official who is not under authority of the matter of birth making a one off comment to a topic entirely different.

There is a clear difference between somebody verifying Obama's birth, and another person using assumption in a discussion that has little to nothing to do with Obama's birth.

Likewise I agree, it would be good for the Kenyan official to clarify what he was saying and where his conclusion came from.

The statement made by the hawaiian official gave NOTHING other than opinion...You can't argue that the qualifying statement that I said she could've made would've made the position much more clear...

JAden

Done on this topic...

Originally posted by joey_hv
Wrong,

You are greatly mistaken in thinking an oldish looking BC is more authentic than a brand new one. Thats just a perception, not an element of authenticity.

IF you lost your original BC it is because you took it out to show someone and didn't keep it in a safe place. What Ms. Gunderson should have done for her little boy was to apply at city court for a duplicate copy of your original BC, it is a photocopy of your original but it has a stamp that says "copy" on it. it is considered just as good as the original.

I didnt lose my long form birth certificate but I did issue for a short form one afew years back (before all this birth nonsense) and since then I have had no problems using it to get my licence, to use it for ID. I dont know who in their rightminds carries a 40-50 year old birth certificate or what not as ID everywhere. Most folks I know of, the last one I saw was a relative of mine, us certification of birth documents, or short forms. Most people I know don't care to tell the difference because either way they are recognized as birth certificates. Maybe its different in other states but I certainly never had a problem so you are incorrect on that assumption or generalization.

So far as showing that any other President was questioned as to their eligibility for not being a natural born citizen:

Technically, any President born before 1776 was NOT a natural born citizen of the United States. They were natural born citizens of the BRITISH Colony of America. They were British citizens, not natural born Americans. I'm splitter hairs here, but just proves a point that there were Presidents who were NOT natual born.

It's the same in Canada - ayone born in Canada before 1947 was automatically considered a British Citizen, and can actually apply for British citizenship.

Section 1, Article 2, was not enacted until nearly 100 years (1868) after the Constitution was written.

Chester Arthur was rumored to have been born in Canada and this was never proven nor disproved.

And to correct an earlier posting, John McCain was born in Panama Canal Zone, which was not considered part of the United States at the time of his birth.

Originally posted by Masterjaden
You failed to even see the reason WHY he wouldn't be eligible

You failed to refence the Wong case correctly, you failed to provide any solid evidence as to why Obama is ineligible. But yes run away and come back after some time fo figuring out more excuses, I'd be more than more than happy to address them later.

Bruce Lee wouldn't be eligible for POTUS, not because he wasn't born here, but because he was a citizen of another country. Dual citizenship makes you ineligible to be POTUS....

Thats another lie. No where in the constitution does it disqualify US born citizens from holding office based on foreign laws. No where in the constitution or its ammendments does it state that. In addition to that Obama lost his dual citizenship 30 years ago, and to add to that our 21st president, Chester Arthur, was a British subject as well until the age of 21years.

Barry has had dual citizenship

Yes you better get rest, your starting to mumble all sorts of names now.

reply to post by joey_hv


Hey, go ahead and take your time digging up proof that you need to produce a long form birth certificate in order to

like the one I had to show to play little league, get into elementary school, get my driver's license, enter the military

I was really hoping that would have been in that last post but I understand if it takes a while to prove things that are not true.

Well I have no comment on the information provided as it is pretty self explanatory (even though people will denounce it to no end with no evidence on the contrary) what I would like to comment on is that fact that through the entire time I have been on ATS, whenever a birther issue has come up it has been the same people who constantly barrage it.

Normally, I would stay out of the mix because it is something I am still undecided over - as should any rational human being as their isn't enough evidence pointing either way - BUT I cannot help but to notice that every time more new evidence comes to the table in the side of the birther's table, we see the same people over and over again who attack the information with the same hypocrisy and criticism that they accuse the opposing side on.

What is even worse is the fact that it has gotten to the point where people will refuse - FLAT OUT REFUSE to even acknowledge the information provided in the topics and dismiss it as "Oh no another birther claim" or "Birther's beating a dead horse".

Honestly, do any of you know how IGNORANT you sound? 90% of you would much rather flame and derail then even attempt to comment or debunk such claims that you feel so strongly against.

The more time I spend here, the more I realize that "Deny ignorance" is nothing more than a tag line for people to hide behind when the only thing they have is ignorance to the world.

Originally posted by Masterjaden
The statement made by the hawaiian official gave NOTHING other than opinion...

Please read this statement and tell me what part of it was opinion:

I, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, Director of the Hawaii State Department of Health, have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verifying Barrack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born American citizen.

I have nothing further to add to this statement or my original statement issued in October 2008 over eight months ago,” Fukino said, in hopes of ending the controversy surrounding Obama’s citizenship.

hawaii.gov...

Done on this topic...

Gets some rest and bring some more BS tomorrow. I'll be happy to address more then.

Originally posted by gwydionblack
What is even worse is the fact that it has gotten to the point where people will refuse - FLAT OUT REFUSE

Well are you not adding more fact against the Birther conspiracy itself? Officials have been verifying Obama's birth in Hawaii for the last 2 years. In particular those of the Hawaiian state governor and the Hawaiian health department director. Their statements to the matter were ignored and pushed side, yet this one off statement from a polician as a comment to a subject unrelated to Obama's birth is taken as evidence. Do you not see the hypocrisy?

You just verified the utter hypocrisy of it all.

Originally posted by gwydionblack

What is even worse is the fact that it has gotten to the point where people will refuse - FLAT OUT REFUSE to even acknowledge the information provided in the topics and dismiss it as "Oh no another birther claim" or "Birther's beating a dead horse".

Honestly, do any of you know how IGNORANT you sound? 90% of you would much rather flame and derail then even attempt to comment or debunk such claims that you feel so strongly against..

the fact that you're even saying this comes across as if this is your first or second time reading through one of these

Every single piece of "proof" has been debunked (to my knowledge, I check this site every day, even before I started posting), but the same questions ("why did he spend so much hiding his records?"), videos, and articles with some "amazing" new insider who thinks obama was born in kenya posted on some obscure right wing blog somehow keep ending up on the front page.

any credibility this movement had died not with the first forged kenyan birth(er) certificate if you can believe that, but with the second one. that was proof in itself that the conspiracy was being perpetrated by total liars.


that's why I think people kinda poo on these threads rather than bother to debunk them. they kind of debunk themselves at this point.

you know i hate Obama too. but, I like how people say that he was born in a country that wasn't even called Kenya two years after he was born,...in Hawaii.
I mean come on people there are much better reason to hate this guy then think he was born in another country.

Originally posted by gwydionblack


What is even worse is the fact that it has gotten to the point where people will refuse - FLAT OUT REFUSE to even acknowledge the information provided in the topics and dismiss it as "Oh no another birther claim" or "Birther's beating a dead horse".

Honestly, do any of you know how IGNORANT you sound? 90% of you would much rather flame and derail then even attempt to comment or debunk such claims that you feel so strongly against.

I actually agree with Gwydion here.

However, I must ask you, do you not realize that these tactics are employed by both sides of this inane argument?

Look at the majority of posts in this thread. Yes, there is the "oh look more birther nonsense" crowd. There is also the "oh look the obamessiah and his faithful followers" crowd.

Two sides of the same coin. Pot calling the kettle black. Whatever you want to call it, both sides are out in full force.




Also, nobody seems to be responding to the evidence, so I will appeal one last time for an honest, straightforward answer:

1. Why are people still calling for a "long-form" certificate that doesn't exist under Hawaii's medical record system, as clearly stated here?

2. What is it, exactly, that makes Mr. James Orengo have more credibility than the Hawaii department of health on this matter? How does his statement, made in passing, qualify as 'evidence'?


There, two simple questions that I would really like to hear some honest answers to. The constant side-stepping, resorting to name-calling, and general proud ignorance displayed by people on both sides of this silly argument are why I try to avoid these threads.

However, the absolute ignorance involved in completely avoiding rational discussion and honest evaluation of the evidence is driving me crazy. Why is it that we at ATS can tear a video of a UFO to shreds, pick a time-traveller out of a grainy black-and-white photo (then promptly debunk it), and break some of the most important stories of our day, yet when it comes to discussing this silly little birth-certificate conspiracy, we all break down into sniveling brats?

Originally posted by OldDragger
The obsession with the birthe certificate has crossed over into insanity.
There is allways a percentage of nuts on any given subject, the birthers are clearly in the catagory of nuts,

You keep saying that it's not about race, it's about his policy, so why don't you give up the Kenya crap and debate policy.
THIS IS REALLY GETTING TO BE A BORE! YOU ARE MAKING YOURSELVES LOOK LIKE IDIOTS!
EHOUGH!

Are you kidding me? Did you jsut HEAR michelle Obama speak and say Barack Obama the US presidents home country is Kenya...???

That makes him an illigitimate president - and should be done for Treason... Nuff said

reply to post by Southern Guardian


Yes hypocrisy stems from both sides, I'm not denying that. But to outright deny what this man was saying and ASSUME - with no further evidence or confirmation that he is WRONG - is just plain IGNORANT. There is absolutely no other way around it.

The way I look at the issue, any statement by any person on the matter should be null and void. Why you ask? Because people lie. People are corrupt. People can be paid off. People have hidden bigger things than this if anything were to ever come out of it. I don't care what some officials said, I don't care what this "Kenyan official" said - the only thing I look at is the physical - cold hard evidence.

And do you know what I see? I see a lot of hidden agendas, missing documents, and one loophole of a document that could have been received by any standing person at the time. The capabilities of Obama and his administration to put the birther issue to rest if indeed there is nothing to hide - is an issue of extreme simplicity. Therefore, the fact that they allow it to remain leads to one of two possible explanations:

1. Obama is not a native American and is trying to hide that fact.
2. Obama is a native American and has chosen to keep the information private as to impose even more separation among the masses.


EITHER way you look at it, regardless of whether you are part of the brither movement or blatantly against, anyone with a brain between their ears should have some kind of red flags going off and realize that one way or they other - WE ARE BEING PLAYED BY THIS ISSUE and we should be WORKING TOGETHER to get it settled ONCE AND FOR ALL no matter which side ends up "winning" in the end.




People arguing over this BS is just proof that this government and the media has you all wrapped around their little finger. All while you continue to point fingers at each other, call each other out, and generally argue about these things - I'll be on the side for TRUTH no matter if I like that truth or not and I will be with the guys that are trying to find it.

Go back into your holes and maintain the stance of ignorance. Don't worry, there are those of us out here that see the big picture.

My take on Obama's birth certificate and college records is that he had them sealed because he might have applied to college as a Kenyan to get financial aide (this is all just my theory).

As for James Orengo, the Kenyan official; I think he is using the "Elvis Effect" as in "Elvis slept here, Elvis ate here, etc." for a positive association.

Originally posted by gwydionblack


1. Obama is not a native American and is trying to hide that fact.
2. Obama is a native American and has chosen to keep the information private as to impose even more separation among the masses.

I apologize for picking this tiny bit out of your post to respond to, but I feel that this is a good example of 'birther logic' and the inherent flaw in the argument.

You are failing to consider the third (correct) possibility.


3. Obama has released his certificate after demands were made, and then went to even further lengths to prove it was legitimate after doubts were expressed. (Obviously this was not done by Obama himself, but by his staff)

You can continue to question the evidence, or ask for a long form (that doesn't exist) ad nauseum, but it will never amount to anything because Obama already has released all of the information necessary to prove that he is indeed a citizen. Any further attempts he could make to prove his legitimacy would likely be a security threat, not to mention being completely unnecessary.



[edit on 12-4-2010 by drwizardphd]

Originally posted by gwydionblack
reply to post by Southern Guardian

 

Yes hypocrisy stems from both sides,

And yet you played to one side. You complain that people are dismissing the facts out of this mans mouth while evidently ignoring the other way around. You were more than ready to listen to what this man said and ignored what other officials had been saying for months.

But to outright deny what this man was saying and ASSUME

Nobody is denying what he said, however people are forgetting this was a passing comment, not a reply towards a topic concerning Obama's eligibility. People will say alot of things in a passing comment and that would not verify it as true.

There is a difference between addressing an eligibility question ie. like that of health director Fukino, and making a passing comment, like that of James and Michelle. I'd bet my bottom dollar if these people are asked to clarify they will be clear in saying that they were taken out of context. As for Fukino, her comments remain the same on the matter.

And do you know what I see? I see a lot of hidden agendas, missing documents,

What you see is mirrored through your own ideological biases. That is all you choose to see. Just because the president does not show you all the documents you demand does not make him guilty. Just because there are lawsuits abound does not mean he has to spend vast amounts to address them, especially considering the law does not require him to do so. Neither do lawsuits make a man automatically guilty. You dont personally like this man as president and that is clouding your judgement.

1. Obama is not a native American and is trying to hide that fact.

Thus far neither you or the others here have proven through solid evidence he was not born in the United states. You had referenced passing comments, you had presented fake documents as proof, you had misquoted people saying things. These are in no way suffient evidence that he was born off US soil. Do you seriously think this would hold up in a fair court? Compare the eligibility issue to say... another crime committed. Would your hearsay qualify as evidence? What about a witness who clarifies his or her comment that goes against your case? Have a little think about it.

WE ARE BEING PLAYED BY THIS ISSUE

You like many of the others here have been played by the rightwing echochamber for years now. You take in anything and everything and you bring it right back to these forums. Only you can be blamed for that.

[edit on 12-4-2010 by Southern Guardian]

YES!!

More disinformation, wonderful.

Your president was born in the United States. Why are you people so caught up on this very invalid issue?

I love how you guys will 100% believe a random Kenyan lawyer making a statement at a speech....but you don't believe the officials from Hawaii. You will believe a hand written school form...but not an official birth certificate from the United States.


You guys are funny.

[edit on 12-4-2010 by OutKast Searcher]

Originally posted by doublehelix
As a previous poster alluded to... sure, he was elected but if the constitution can be ignored then we are in trouble. The citizenship and natural born citizenship clauses were put in the constitution to protect us from foreign influence/takeover, and it's strange how hard some fight against those protections just because they are enamored by the guy.

continue on...

A lot of people believe that the constitution is outdated. Not only do they want to do away with the 'natural citizen' requirement, but they also want to get rid of guns and other rights currently protected by the constitution.