The Lost and Hidden connection between Religions

Of all the pagan copycat candidates, Osiris and Horus are two that look if any to be a major threat. Egypt after all is not far from Palestine, and Jews did live in Egypt; it is not theoretically improbable that they could steal an idea for a Jesus from this place.

But did they? The field is rife with claims, but as usual there is a great deal of filching of Christian terms to describe Egyptian events (not all of it with bad intentions) and a great deal of non-citation of sources for fabulous claims.

* Osiris
o Had well over 200 divine names, including Lord of Lords, King of Kings, God of Gods, Resurrection and the Life, Good Shepherd, Eternity and Everlastingness, the god who "made men and women to be born again."
o Coming was announced by Three Wise Men: the three stars Mintaka, Anilam, and Alnitak in the belt of Orion, which point directly to Osiris' star in the east, Sirius, significator of his birth
o Was a devoured Host. His flesh was eaten in the form of communion cakes of wheat, the 'plant of Truth'.
o The 23rd Psalm copied an Egyptian text appealing to Osiris the Good Shepherd to lead the deceased to the 'green pastures' and 'still waters' of the nefer-nefer land, to restore the soul and body, and to give protection in the valley of the shadow of death...
o The Lord's Prayer was prefigured by an Egyptian hymn to Osiris-Amen beginning, 'O Amen, O Amen, who are in heaven. Amen was also invoked at the end of every prayer.
o The teachings of Osiris and Jesus are wonderfully alike. Many passages are identically the same, word for word.
o As the god of the vine, a great traveling teacher who civilized the world. Ruler and judge of the dead.
o In his passion, Osiris was plotted against and killed by Set and "the 72."
o Osiris' resurrection served to provide hope to all that they may do likewise and become eternal.
* Horus
o Was born of the virgin Isis-Meri in December 25th in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
o His earthly father was named "Seb" ("Joseph").
o He was of royal descent.
o At age 12 he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years.
o Was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iaurutana (Jordan) by "Anup the Baptizer" (John the Baptist) who was decapitated.
o He ad 12 disciples, two of whom were his "witnesses" and were named "Anup" and "AAn" (the two "Johns").
o He performed miracles, exorcized demons and raised El-Azarus ("El-Osiris") from the dead.
o Horus walked on water.
o His personal epithet was "Iusa" the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father." He was called the "Holy Child."
o He delivered a "Sermon on the Mount" and his followers recounted the "Sayings of Iusa."
o Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
o He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, was resurrected.
o Titles: Way, the Truth the Light; Messiah; God's Anointed Son; Son of Man; Good Shepherd; Lamb of God; Word made flesh; Word of Truth.
o Was "the Fisher" and was associated with the Fish ("Ichthys"), Lamb and Lion.
o He came to fulfill the Law.
o Was called "the KRST" or "Anointed One."
o Was supposed to reign one thousand years.

That's quite a list, but let's make it simple to start: A good number -- at least half -- are so far as I have seen bogus. There has not been a shred of evidence for many of these in any book of Egyptian religion I have thus far consulted.

For convenience I begin by reproducing the "thumbnail sketch of Horus' life" given in Encyclopedia of Religions as offered by Miller, which also lays the groundwork for Osiris:

"In ancient Egypt there were originally several gods known by the name Horus, but the best known and most important from the beginning of the historic period was the son of Osiris and Isis who was identified with the king of Egypt. According to myth, Osiris, who assumed the rulership of the earth shortly after its creation, was slain by his jealous brother, Seth. The sister- wife of Osiris, Isis, who collected the pieces of her dismembered husband and revived him, also conceived his son and avenger, Horus. Horus fought with Seth, and, despite the loss of one eye in the contest, was successful in avenging the death of his father and in becoming his legitimate successor. Osiris then became king of the dead and Horus king of the living, this transfer being renewed at every change of earthly rule. The myth of divine kingship probably elevated the position of the god as much as it did that of the king. In the fourth dynasty, the king, the living god, may have been one of the greatest gods as well, but by the fifth dynasty the supremacy of the cult of Re, the sun god, was accepted even by the kings. The Horus-king was now also "son of Re." This was made possible mythologically by personifying the entire older genealogy of Horus (the Heliopolitan ennead) as the goddess Hathor, "house of Horus," who was also the spouse of Re and mother of Horus.

"Horus was usually represented as a falcon, and one view of him was as a great sky god whose outstretched wings filled the heavens; his sound eye was the sun and his injured eye the moon. Another portrayal of him particularly popular in the Late Period, was as a human child suckling at the breast of his mother, Isis. The two principal cult centers for the worship of Horus were at Bekhdet in the north, where very little survives, and at Idfu in the south, which has a very large and well- preserved temple dating from the Ptolemaic period. The earlier myths involving Horus, as well as the ritual per- formed there, are recorded at Idfu."

Osiris

* Had well over 200 divine names, including Lord of Lords, King of Kings, God of Gods, Resurrection and the Life, Good Shepherd, Eternity and Everlastingness, the god who "made men and women to be born again."

The titles I have found ascribed to Osiris are [Fraz.AAO] Lord of All, the Good Being (the most common title), Lord of the Underworld, Lord/King of Eternity, Ruler of the Dead, [Griff.OO] Lord of the West, Great One, [Bud.ERR, 26] "he who takes seat," the Begetter, the Ram, [Bud.ERR, 79] "great Word" (as in, "the word of what cometh into being and what is not" -- a reflection of the ancient idea of the creative power of speech, found likewise in the Greek Logos), "Chief of the Spirits"; [Short.EG, 37] ruler of everlastingness, [Meek.DL, 31] "living god," "God above the gods."

All of these are either general titles we would expect to be assigned to any head honcho deity, or else are related to Osiris' command over the underworld. None of the ones cited closest and uniquely like unto Jesus were found.
* Coming was announced by Three Wise Men: the three stars Mintaka, Anilam, and Alnitak in the belt of Orion, which point directly to Osiris' star in the east, Sirius, significator of his birth. While some scholars connect Osiris with Orion, they do not know anything about wise men or a star in the east.
* Was a devoured Host. His flesh was eaten in the form of communion cakes of wheat, the 'plant of Truth'. Not that anyone in the scholarly lit has reported.
* The 23rd Psalm copied an Egyptian text appealing to Osiris the Good Shepherd to lead the deceased to the 'green pastures' and 'still waters' of the nefer-nefer land, to restore the soul and body, and to give protection in the valley of the shadow of death... If this is so, no commentator in Egyptian religion or the OT knows about it. Osiris would possibly be known as a shepherd as such imagery was common in the ANE, but I have not seen it yet applied to him by anyone but mythicists.
* The Lord's Prayer was prefigured by an Egyptian hymn to Osiris-Amen beginning, 'O Amen, O Amen, who are in heaven.' Amen was also invoked at the end of every prayer. If so, we want to know where this prayer is recorded, and so would experts in Egyptian religion. The Hebrew "Amen" is never used as a salutation and means "let it be so" which means it is not "invoked" as a deity is.

Beyond that, let's see an etymological connection based on the original languages, not on the correspondence of English characters.
* The teachings of Osiris and Jesus are wonderfully alike. Many passages are identically the same, word for word. If so, someone needs to put them side by side and prove it. The Egyptian religious scholars don't seem aware of it.
* As the god of the vine, a great traveling teacher who civilized the world. Ruler and judge of the dead. This is a bit non-specific. Frazer reported [Fraz.AAO, vii, 7] that Osiris taught winemaking and agriculture, gave the Egyptians laws, taught them proper worship, and traveled the word teaching these things.

But this is the claim that was made of Dionysus as well, and we have answered that point within that essay. Not that it matters, since it seems literature written by scholars of Egyptian religion do not treat them as the same, though some connect Osiris and Orion, and Budge notes the travels but does not connect Osiris and Dionysius [Bud.ERR, 9]. In any event Osiris is nowhere called a "god of the vine".

He is ruler and judge of the dead, but this doesn't describe Jesus, who represents a God who is not God of the dead, "but of the living." At most it represents what might be expected of any supreme deity: to rule and to judge.
* In his passion, Osiris was plotted against and killed by Set and "the 72." This is a combination of terminological fudging, half-truth, and irrelevancy. There was no "passion" -- in the incident alluded to, Osiris was indeed plotted against by Set. There was a big party, at which Set had a coffin brought in and encouraged everyone, including 72 participants in the scheme and one queen of Ethiopia, to lay down for a fit. Finally it came O's turn, and he was persuaded to lay down in the coffin. Once O was inside, Set nailed the coffin shut and threw it in the river; O suffocated.

Note that the 72 here are enemies of O, not his disciples: only the number -- a multiple of 12, a number we still hold in regard today when we purchase eggs and donuts -- is a common touchpoint (and that only in some mss. of Luke 10; others put the number at 70, possibly representing the number of Gentile nations, according to the Jews). They do nothing at all that could be considered like what Jesus' disciples did.

As the story goes further, O's wife Isis went looking for the coffin. She found it in Syria, where it had been incorporated into the pillar of a house. She lamented so loudly that some kids in the house died of fright. Later she took it out, opened it up, then went looking for Horus.

Meanwhile Set found the coffin and tore the body in 14 pieces which he threw all over the place. In one result Isis went looking for the pieces and buried them as she found them. An alternate story has Isis, Anubis, and Ra piecing the body together, swathing it with bandages, and reviving him -- more on this below.
* Osiris' resurrection served to provide hope to all that they may do likewise and become eternal. This is where we find some of the biggest misuse of terminology, including by some Egyptian scholars of religion (who do not go on to posit a "copycat" relationship!). Osiris resurrected? Not if "resurrection" is defined as coming back in a glorified body. On this point Miller has done some substantial work, reporting the words of J. Z. Smith, so I will let these speak to begin:

"Osiris was murdered and his body dismembered and scattered. The pieces of his body were recovered and rejoined, and the god was rejuvenated. However, he did not return to his former mode of existence but rather journeyed to the underworld, where he became the powerful lord of the dead. In no sense can Osiris be said to have 'risen' in the sense required by the dying and rising pattern (as described by Frazer et.al.); most certainly it was never considered as an annual event."

"In no sense can the dramatic myth of his death and reanimation be harmonized to the pattern of dying and rising gods (as described by Frazer et.al.)."

"The repeated formula 'Rise up, you have not died,' whether applied to Osiris or a citizen of Egypt, signaled a new, permanent life in the realm of the dead."

Frankfort concurs:

"Osiris, in fact, was not a 'dying' god at all but a 'dead' god. He never returned among the living; he was not liberated from the world of the dead, as Tammuz was. On the contrary, Osiris altogether belonged to the world of the dead; it was from there that he bestowed his blessings upon Egypt. He was always depicted as a mummy, a dead king." [Kingship and the gods: a study of ancient Near Eastern religion as the integration of society & nature. UChicago:1978 edition, p.289]

Perhaps the only pagan god for whom there is a resurrection is the Egyptian Osiris. Close examination of this story shows that it is very different from Christ's resurrection. Osiris did not rise; he ruled in the abode of the dead. As biblical scholar, Roland de Vaux, wrote, "What is meant of Osiris being 'raised to life?' Simply that, thanks to the ministrations of Isis, he is able to lead a life beyond the tomb which is an almost perfect replica of earthly existence. But he will never again come among the living and will reign only over the dead.… This revived god is in reality a 'mummy' god."... No, the mummified Osiris was hardly an inspiration for the resurrected Christ...As Yamauchi observes, "Ordinary men aspired to identification with Osiris as one who had triumphed over death." But it is a mistake to equate the Egyptian view of the afterlife with the biblical doctrine of resurrection. To achieve immortality the Egyptian had to meet three conditions: First, his body had to be preserved by mummification. Second, nourishment was provided by the actual offering of daily bread and beer. Third, magical spells were interred with him. His body did not rise from the dead; rather elements of his personality-his Ba and Ka-continued to hover over his body. ["The Resurrection of Jesus Christ: Myth, Hoax, or History?" David J. MacLeod, in The Emmaus Journal, V7 #2, Winter 98, p169

Frazer [Fraz.AAO, viii] wrote that every dead man was given Osiris' name on top of his own in order to identify with the god.

So O's "resurrection" is no resurrection at all -- and in fact was actually a sort of function of the way the Egyptian gods were, shall we say, being half Frankenstein, half Lego set. There are in fact many stories of the Egyptian gods flinging various body parts around, and to no overall harm, because "divine bodies were thought to be impervious to change" [Meek.DL, 57] and so O's dead body neither rotted nor decomposed as it waited to be put back together.

This is how it was with all these Egyptian gods: Seth and Horus have a fight in which they throw dung at each other then steal each others' genitals [Bud.ERR, 64]. Horus' eye is stolen by Set, but Horus gets it back and gives it to Osiris, who eats it [ibid., 88]. Horus had a headache, and another deity offers to loan him his head until the headache went away [Meek.DL, 57]. Osiris did pay a price for his dismembering death, in that he was limited to the world of the dead [and manifestly ignorant as a result of what went on "above ground" -- Meek.DL, 88-9], but that is only because he had actually died once before when his father accidentally killed him [ibid., 80].

Horus

Now we get to the matters of Horus. Many of these have had some input from Miller, so we'll report those and add as needed.

* Was born of the virgin Isis-Meri in December 25th in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men. The lit has confirmed what Miller offers, and I have also seen the depiction he refers to below. I have found no reference to a cave/manger -- Frazer [Fraz.AAO, 8] has Horus born in the swamps, and knows nothing about a star or Wise Men, of any number.

...Horus was NOT born of a virgin at all. Indeed, one ancient Egyptian relief depicts this conception by showing his mother Isis in a falcon form, hovering over an erect phallus of a dead and prone Osiris in the Underworld (EOR, s.v. "Phallus"). And the Dec 25 issue is of no relevance to us--nowhere does the NT associate this date with Jesus' birth at all.

Indeed, the description of the conception of Horus will show exactly the sexual elements that characterize pagan 'miracle births', as noted by the scholars earlier:

"But after she [i.e., Isis] had brought it [i.e. Osiris' body] back to Egypt, Seth managed to get hold of Osiris's body again and cut it up into fourteen parts, which she scattered all over Egypt. Then Isis went out to search for Osiris a second time and buried each part where she found it (hence the many tombs of Osiris tht exist in Egypt). The only part that she did not find was the god's penis, for Seth had thrown it into the river, where it had been eaten by a fish; Isis therefore fashioned a substitute penis to put in its place. She had also had sexual intercourse with Osisis after his death, which resulted in the conception and birth of his posthumous son, Harpocrates, Horus-the-child. Osiris became king of the netherworld, and Horus proceeded to fight with Seth..." [CANE:2:1702; emphasis mine] [BTW, the Hebrew word 'satan' is not a 'cognate' of the name 'seth' by any means: "The root *STN is not evidenced in any of the cognate languages in texts that are prior to or contemporary with its occurrences in the Hebrew Bible" DDD, s.v. 1369f]

The one reference I have found to a birth of Horus has him born on the 31st day of the Egyptian month of Khoiak -- the mythers have a one in 365 chance that this matches Dec. 25th!

On the Luxor Temple Carving

Many mythicists claim that on the walls of the Luxor Temple is a scene showing the "Annunciation, Immaculate Conception, Birth and Adoration of Horus, with Thoth announcing to the Virgin Isis that she will conceive Horus; with Kenph, the 'Holy Ghost,' impregnating the virgin," complete with three wise men. When pressed by an inquirer at her site about this claim, Acharya S said: "Isis is the constellation of Virgo the Virgin, as well as the Moon, which becomes a 'virgin' during when it is new. The sun god - in this case, Horus - is born of this Virgin goddess." -- and alludes to a document from the 6th century AD!

No substantiation is offered for the Isis-Virgo connection at all; it has no more authority than saying "Isis is Gomer the prostitute." If such a carving exists it is only what Acharya thinks it is via the interpretation of Massey.

A writer recently sent this description from an Egyptian tour site: "Kingship was believed to be ordained by the gods at the beginning of time in accordance with ma'at., the well-ordered state, truth, justice, cosmic order. The reigning king was also the physical son of the Creator sun-god. This divine conception and birth was recorded on the walls of Luxor Temple, at Deir el-Bahri, and other royal cult temples throughout Egypt. The king was also an incarnation of the dynastic god Horus, and when deceased, the king was identified with the father of Horus, Osiris. This living king was thus a unique entity, the living incarnation of deity, divinely chosen intermediary, who could act as priest for the entire nation, reciting the prayers, dedicating the sacrifices...

A peristyle forecourt of Amenhotep III is fused with the hypostyle hall, which is the first room in the inner, originally roofed, part of the temple. This leads to a series of for antechambers with subsidiary rooms. The Birth Room east of the second antechamber is decorated with reliefs showing the symbolic divine birth of Amenhotep III resulting from the union of his mother Mutemwiya and the god Amun.

The bark sanctuary includes a free-standing building added by Alexander the Great within the larger chamber created by Amenhotep III. Well-preserved reliefs show Amun's portable bark shrine and other scenes of the king in the presence of the gods. The sanctuary of Amenhotep III is the last room on the central axis of the temple."

This is significantly devoid of a virgin conception or birth, wise men, or a Holy Ghost. You might squeeze an adoration out of it, but who does not adore newborns anyway?

But now see the trump card, provided by a Skeptic ashamed of such a thesis; see here. You can also find more about the Luxor temple carving from my book Shattering the Christ Myth.
* His earthly father was named "Seb" ("Joseph"). Actually Seb was the earth-god, not "earthly," but rather the earth itself (as Nut was the sky), and he was O's dad, not Horus', though one of my helpful researchers tells me there is one version in which Horus was the son of Seb. And don't fall for the etymological trick or treat: You can't get from "Seb" to "Joseph" just by putting the names next to each other.
* He was of royal descent. Obviously true, and Horus was often identified with the living Pharaoh, but so commonplace as to be meaningless.
* At age 12 he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years.
* Was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iaurutana (Jordan) by "Anup the Baptizer" (John the Baptist) who was decapitated.
* He had 12 disciples, two of whom were his "witnesses" and were named "Anup" and "AAn" (the two "Johns"). Egyptian religion scholars know of none of this. On this last Miller notes:

...my research in the academic literature does not surface this fact. I can find references to FOUR "disciples"--variously called the semi-divine HERU-SHEMSU ("Followers of Horus") [GOE:1.491]. I can find references to SIXTEEN human followers (GOE:1.196). And I can find reference to an UNNUMBERED group of followers called mesniu/mesnitu ("blacksmiths") who accompanied Horus in some of his battles [GOE:1.475f; although these might be identified with the HERU-SHEMSU in GOE:1.84]. But I cannot find TWELVE anywhere... Horus is NOT the sun-god (that's Re), so we cannot use the 'all solar gods have twelve disciples--in the Zodiac' routine here.]

* He performed miracles, exorcized demons and raised El-Azarus ("El-Osiris") from the dead. Miller notes:

Miracle stories abound, even among religious groups that could not possibly have influenced one another, such as Latin American groups (e.g. Aztecs) and Roman MR's, so this 'similarity' carries no force. The reference to this specific resurrection I cannot find ANYWHERE in the scholarly literature. I have looked under all forms of the name to no avail. The fact that something so striking is not even mentioned in modern works of Egyptology indicates its questionable status. It simply cannot be adduced as data without SOME real substantiation. The closest thing to it I can find is in Horus' official funerary role, in which he "introduces" the newly dead to Osirus and his underworld kingdom. In the Book of the Dead, for example, Horus introduces the newly departed Ani to Osirus, and asks Osirus to accept and care for Ani (GOE:1.490).

* Horus walked on water. Not that I have found, but he was thrown in the water (see below).
* His personal epithet was "Iusa" the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father." He was called the "Holy Child." Miller says:

This fact has likewise escaped me and my research. I have looked at probably 50 epithets of the various Horus deities, and most major indices of the standard Egyptology reference works and come up virtually empty-handed. I can find a city named "Iusaas" [GOE:1.85], a pre-Islamic Arab deity by the name of "Iusaas", thought by some to be the same as the Egyptian god Tehuti/Thoth [GOE:2.289], and a female counterpart to Tem, named "Iusaaset" [GOE:1.354]. But no reference to Horus as being "Iusa"... ]

* He delivered a "Sermon on the Mount" and his followers recounted the "Sayings of Iusa."
* Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
* He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, was resurrected. None of these three can be found, either. On the last Miller writes:

I can find no references to Horus EVER dying, until he later becomes "merged" with Re the Sun god, after which he 'dies' and is 'reborn' every single day as the sun rises. And even in this 'death', there is no reference to a tomb anywhere...

I found in Budge one idea that Horus had died and been cast in pieces in the water, and his parts were fished out by Sebek the crocodile god at Isis' request. But that's a funny sort of baptism at best (see above). Another source notes a story where Horus is bitten by a snake and revived, which is still not much of a parallel.
* Titles: Way, the Truth the Light; Messiah; God's Anointed Son; Son of Man; Good Shepherd; Lamb of God; Word made flesh; Word of Truth. I found thesed titles: [Bud.ERR, 78] Great God, Chief of the Powers, Master of Heaven, Avenger of His Father (since he beat up Set, who "killed" Osiris). He may have been called rightly "Son of Man" as the son of royalty (see here) but I have found no evidence for this.
* Was "the Fisher" and was associated with the Fish ("Ichthys"), Lamb and Lion.
* He came to fulfill the Law.
* Was called "the KRST" or "Anointed One."
* Was supposed to reign one thousand years. I have found no evidence for any of these last four.

Conclusion: This one seems to be full of ringers. It remains to be seen if mythicists can document these claims.

Sources:
# Bud.ERR -- Budge, E. Wallis. . 1961.
# Fraz.AAO -- Frazer, J. G. Adonis, Attis, Osiris. 1961.
# Griff.OO -- Griffith, J. Gwyn. The Origins of Osiris and His Cult. Brill: 1996.
# Meek.DL -- Meeks, Dimitri. Daily Life of the Egyptian Gods. 1996.
# Short.EG -- Shorter, Alan. Egyptian Gods: A Handbook. 1937.

www.tektonics.org...

reply to post by Sinter Klaas


sure.

here's a bit to get you started

babel is KA.DINGIR.RA in sumerian cuneiform

this is KA "gate, door" Akk. bābu
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/e43ec979364cb34b.png[/atsimg]

so we have "Babu", which means gate, now all we need is "god", which in the case of BABEL, is EL

and what/who was EL ? A deity.

and here's the deity symbol (looks like a star doesn't it?)

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/217e8aaa88644663.png[/atsimg]

so the original word could've been better described as

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/e43ec979364cb34b.png[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/217e8aaa88644663.png[/atsimg]

OR..................................................................................

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/217e8aaa88644663.png[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/e43ec979364cb34b.png[/atsimg]



www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 12-4-2010 by undo]

reply to post by whitewave
You've been on ATS for years. Copy and pasting huge posts is a well known no-no. Add a comment...post an extract...add links

reply to post by Kandinsky


True. My apologies. In my defense, I've noticed over the years that no matter how great your sources, many people simply won't click on the blasted link you generously provide. I don't know if it's a "continuity" thing or wanting to stay on the thread or what.

After 5 pages of seeing people jump on the bandwagon of ignorance, I had to intercede. Won't happen again. Thanks for your tolerance.

the namshub of enki (excerpted from the enuma elish)
deoxy.org...

the bottomless pit (revelation 9)
www.biblegateway.com...

the song of the hoe (enlil's black headed people reference)
www-etcsl.orient.ox.ac.uk...

the creation of adams
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

enki and ninmah (the first creation of man (threw the gate, characterized by the great bull of heaven and the pleiades representing enki and the 7 birth goddesses ( there are seven gates in the "underworld" (read abyss, abzu, bottomless pit, dudael, portal of the lords of eternity, etc). these symbols are seen further in ancient egypt as bat (precussor of hathor), the ankh, the eye of ra, the sistrum of hathor and the maqet, which is the ladder of heaven))
www-etcsl.orient.ox.ac.uk...

william henry's babylon evidence
tiny.cc...







[edit on 12-4-2010 by undo]

reply to post by undo




That's some really interesting info you offer.

I'm already hooked on your thread

I actualy flagged it before. But to a build up of unforseen events my subsribtion list has been partly deleted. Several times.

reply to post by whitewave

True. My apologies. In my defense, I've noticed over the years that no matter how great your sources, many people simply won't click on the blasted link you generously provide. I don't know if it's a "continuity" thing or wanting to stay on the thread or what.

Put like that...I understand completely. I've linked to comedy images under authoritative titles without people noticing Some do, many don't. I withdraw my criticism

Interesting post.

And SonIsSon... I LOVE your sig!!! i couldn't have said it better myself

Maybe the most basic point that most religions have in common is this message:

You are spiritual and your existence is not over when your body dies.

This is dangerous knowledge. It makes it hard to enslave people.

Awesome thread, thanks all!

Originally posted by SacredLore
Maybe the most basic point that most religions have in common is this message:

You are spiritual and your existence is not over when your body dies.

This is dangerous knowledge. It makes it hard to enslave people.

Awesome thread, thanks all!

It makes it hard ? IMO it creates the possibility to influence people to a point they are willing to blow themselves up in the middle of a busy market place. Which some people would see as an act of free will.

But I assure you this is more worse then enslavement. It creates a mental enslavement and if there really is a life beyond this one, I'll bet one would find out that the meaning of this life is not to throw it away or be a willing slave and prevent the mind to actualy do what it's here for. To live life.

I myself have always wondered about a common theme in major world religion. There are some great posts, and much respect to the OP for bringing this to the table.

Now, as far as my two cents go, I think that once we as a people can dismantle the "I am right you are wrong" mentality as many of us have. It becomes impossible not to see at the very least similarities and a probable unified source.

Also, throughout the many thousands of years, its obvious that controlling bodies have distorted the teaches of these religions (some probably more than others) to further their own agendas. More than likely purposefully hiding said similarities, what better way to keep people occupied as to have them fight amongst themselves?

J.Black

in my opinion i dont believe in religion i only believe in beliefs. there are just too many coverups among the religions of the world and things in the different bibles are taken out of context throughout the years and in a strange way all religions are worng and right at the same time as the interlock together yet there are obvious lies and soun out truths hidden amongst it all

reply to post by J.Black


I've learned recently... Wait first I got to... Do You know That the Islam houses two major groups of Muslim ? Sjiite and soonite.

There are some big tentions between them. They kill eachother because of it.

Do you know the difference ?

One group believes a descendant from Mohamed blood line should rule. The other thinks the ruler should be the one best qualified.

That's all. No further differences.

And we think we can do anything to help ??

I must say this only applies for a small parts of the world and probably a handful of fundamentalist cause all the horror.

I think it's about passion.

reply to post by whitewave


that's a very interesting post!

i've been pondering this type of data for a long time now.
what i'm about to say may seem even further out there than the rest of my material, but i think you will find it interesting to ponder as you recall your own studies.

the serpent in the garden wasn't a serpent. we agree on that, yes?
that a serpent is a seraph (singular), which is an angel from a specific angelic race called the seraphim.

Result of search for "seraph":

8314 saraph saw-rawf' from 8313; burning, i.e. (figuratively) poisonous (serpent); specifically, a saraph or symbolical creature (from their copper color):--fiery (serpent), seraph.

www.eliyah.com...

en.wikipedia.org...

now the garden of eden serpent "lost his legs", according to the text. we assume that means he was literally turned into a snake, which seems incorrect for several reasons. so this is the theory i've developed thus far, about what all that means:

in the biblical texts, it is clear that people can be "host bodies" for spirit entities. examples are holy spirit inhabiting a person, demonic possession,
and theoretically, satanic possession. it is to the latter, i would like to draw your attention.

here we see the king of tyre possessed by the serpent from the garden, observe:

Ezekiel 28:

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

clearly, ezekiel is not talking to the king of tyre in that passage, but something INSIDE the king of tyre, that sounds suspiciously like the serpent in the garden, does it not? in effect, he appears to be inhabited or rather, the host body of the serpent.

so what if the entire pharaonic line was the same thing? it started with nimrod/narmer/enmerkar, who BECAME a "mighty" one after he was already born. he travelled to egypt and either built or reclaimed the osirieon at abydos, set up the pharaonic dynasty, and then when a pharaoh died and a new pharaoh was named, the serpent was transferred to the new pharaoh. the opening of the mouth ceremony depicts the removal of the serpent from the old pharaoh's body for transference to the new pharaoh. the snake like thing in the priest's hands is a tool used to "open the mouth" of the pharaoh (so he could "breathe")

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/55638fb8197b1d14.jpg[/atsimg]

in so doing, the old pharaoh becomes osiris-(enter name of pharaoh) in the text written for his burial.

i've also considered that a pyramidal structure was built on top of the osirieon before the death of nimrod/narmer, and it is this pyramid that is deconstructed (set tears apart the body of osiris) and the materials were used to construct the obelisks that were scattered all over egypt, whereever isis was said to have found a piece of osiris' body. the obelisks are said to be phallic, which explains why isis is said to have constructed osiris an artificial phallus when she can't find the original.

if true, that would tie the abzu of enki in sumer, the tower of babel, to the abzu (osirieon) of nimrod/narmer/osiris at abydos, as well.

anyway, maybe the world's rulers are all hosts and have been for thousands of years?


[edit on 12-4-2010 by undo]

Great thread!
I ain't no expert, but from what i have learned so far from reading books on Buddhism and Hinduism is that they all lead to the same path/general idea, which is illumination. I'm Catholic, but i strongly believe in reincarnation although it is rejected by my religion. That's the wonder of taking the time to study other religions. You can draw parallels between two or more religions that you thought would never have anything in common. But then you come into a sudden realization of how countries and people will and do use religion to shield themselves from their unethical and deplorable acts. What is worse is that we have been conditioned to respond negatively towards any other religion which isn't our own without first attempting to understand them. It is preposterous to live our whole lives hearing over and over again our own opinion/belief.It is a wonder and true progression if we chose to listen and comprehend an opinion/idea/belief which isn't our own.

[edit on 13-4-2010 by coldhands]

I enjoyed the read, good post! I always enjoy reading about religions. Mostly a lurker, and rarely post, and sorry if someone has already brought this up, but I found a flaw in your original post. While it was a good read, I don't agree with how you structured you argument. I understand Hinduism and Buddhism being branched together and Christianity and Judaism branched together as well, but for your third major religion, why would Islam have its own branch in the repression of the symbols? While it all sounds and looks good with your examples, Islam is much younger than the other religions, it wasn't even founded until around 622 C.E., and I would go as far to say that the symbols you shown were around long before Islam. Besides Islam is another branch from Judaism, and even considers Jesus to have been a prophet. Again, I found it a good read, but hard to take in, thanks for your post. Not trying to take anything away, just sharing my opinion... S & F!

question: Mithra/Taurus/bull the slaying of the Taurean Age. if so.. why isn't there much much more Aries/Ram in the next age? Warriors yes. But no Ramlike Religions? Am I mistaken?
We have Pisces/Fish/Jesus in the this age.
The bearer of water comes next.

Its been a great read all - sorry for being slow in responding, I havent been online much.

Originally posted by Kandinsky
Flood Stories from around the World

You summarized the case for a global flood perfectly into a single post. You ought to make a thread about that. Coming from someone who is normally a skeptic, that was a great read.

They lived and died in the mountains of Spain some 400 000 years ago. Again, science has indicated they also had speech. What's interesting is that some of them put their dead in a pit in a cave. If, as some suggest, they were committing their dead to rest...we have an even earlier stirring of our 'God gene' or hard-wired tendency towards spiritual and/or religious beliefs.

400 000? They date for intelligent-activity just keeps moving back further and further.

Originally posted by Maddogkull
Do you have any information on this Mithra character? The similarities between him and Jesus is amazing.

Sorry, no - my mind is still blank on that.

Edit - but I see whitewave responded to that in Detail

[edit on 13-4-2010 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Look at Swahili (I believe the most widely spoken African language) .. looks very like Arabic, crescent shaped.

If what I told is true then Swahili would be the crescent-stream and Japenese/Korean would be more linear, like us.

The idea this teacher shared was that three streams seperated (and produced sub-streams) and will later again converge.

Originally posted by skywalker_
FOR ALL THE ATS'ers OUT THERE ..

Please don't fall for Krishna being compared to Jesus.

PLEASE

The alarmist tone is completely unnecessary because I dont insist that my OP is correct, nor is it my aim to deceive - Im just thinking out loud and sharing