What will happen when the pope is sacked?

I do not want this to be a discussion about the elite having legal or his moral immunity. I personally believe he should be sacked but I would like honest opinions and theories on what the political fallout would be given he is also a head of the roman state. If he is not sacked I believe the church will collapse anyway. I do not think he should resign as that would give him a choice when he deserves none.

I am also very interested in feedback from Catholics. How would you feel if he was sacked? Would you join another denomination? If he was not sacked would you feel dissilusioned or betrayed?

[edit on 10-4-2010 by riley]

reply to post by riley


My mother and sister are devout Catholics and they have total support for the Pope. Considering the Pope is in his 80s, the Church will most likely wait until the man either passes away or steps down for health reasons.

The only thing the scandal might really affect is Pope John Paul II's sainthood. He was the one ultimately in charge during the scandals (for the most part).

I would also like to hear from other Catholics about whether there is widespread support for the Pope in office now.

I do not think this will cause the total downfall, but it will stop any momentum of people returning to the Church, and will start others leaving for the Orthodox Churches (they are very much like the Catholic Church).

" what will happen when the pope is sacked "

Well Julius peppers would get a ten yard penalty....

I couldn't resist. I'll give my opinion later Riley

[edit on 10-4-2010 by JesusisTruth]

It couldn't happen. It never has happened in the past, and it's not going to start. So what would happen if the pope was sacked? Catholics across the world would rise up against whatever government agency decided to remove him, because, as I said, never has it been done (and there have been some far worse popes than one that continued an investigation despite a letter from a priest saying he was going to be dead soon) and there is no procedure in place to make it happen.

As to assuming the Catholic Church is going to collapse as a result of some media spin, you haven't studied church history. Take a look, for example, at the Crusades. In the past 150 years, the church has been vilified by the popular media for them without paying any mind to history. Yet, the Catholic Church is still, by a huge margin, the largest Church in Christiandom.

Originally posted by junglejake
It couldn't happen. It never has happened in the past, and it's not going to start.

With respect.. I didn't want this to be an "if" scenario. Monarchs have been deposed/sacked before and one pope at least was sacked for being a woman. en.wikipedia.org...
There is precedent.. if not there is always a first time for everything.

So what would happen if the pope was sacked? Catholics across the world would rise up against whatever government agency decided to remove him, because, as I said, never has it been done (and there have been some far worse popes than one that continued an investigation despite a letter from a priest saying he was going to be dead soon) and there is no procedure in place to make it happen.

If he is not sacked then and more evidence arises that he knew of rapes by priests against children.. are people going to just accept his continued immunity? He is making a mockery of Jesus' teachings.

Besides which this is not the middle ages and the church no longer runs the world so it does not enjoy the same protections as it once did. It is losing it's grasp of all that power it abused.

s to assuming the Catholic Church is going to collapse as a result of some media spin, you haven't studied church history.

Yet you knew nothing of the female pope. Just because I do not agree with you does not mean I know less than you.

Take a look, for example, at the Crusades. In the past 150 years, the church has been vilified by the popular media for them without paying any mind to history. Yet, the Catholic Church is still, by a huge margin, the largest Church in Christiandom.

The crusades are history.. this is now. If the church went around burning women now the church would be destroyed and they would be held and probablty charged with war crimes. People would not accept that as being "christian" so that is a silly argument. Same applies.. if he turns out to be a child molester or an advocate for them how could he be considered christian? How could you follow someone who condones raping little children? Where exactly does Jesus say that is okay?

[edit on 10-4-2010 by riley]

Originally posted by riley
There is precedent.. if not there is always a first time for everything.

From the link you provided:

Most modern scholars dismiss Pope Joan as a Medieval legend

He is making a mockery of Jesus' teachings.

Which ones? There was already an investigation taking place. The priest involved ask that the investigation be stopped, as he would soon be dead. The Pope did nothing, thereby saying, "nope, the investigation is going to continue." Which things Jesus (and thereby the Bible) said contradict this?

Just because I do not agree with you does not mean I know less than you.

You're taking offense at something not intended to cause offense. You know things I do not, and I know things you do not. We all have interests, and we all have various amounts of time with which to pursue those interests. To state that one should investigate the history of the church as well as this specific incident since it appears the accusations/suspicions are arising from a lack of information is an insult would be like telling a 3rd grader he must study his times tables is insulting. Or for a history teacher to tell their class to study the US Civil War for a test. It's not insulting. It's a suggestion.

Same applies.. if he turns out to be a child molester

Wow, how did we get here? The Pope may now be a child molester because he didn't act on a priest's request for clemency?

or an advocate for them

Meaning he's championing them? See the previous statement above...

How could you follow someone who condones raping little children? Where exactly does Jesus say that is okay?

Where exactly does the Pope? We've gone from a news story of a Pope not replying to a dying priest to the Pope being a card carrying member of NAMBLA?

I think you're going to be very disappointed when Catholicism continues and the Pope isn't impeached...

Originally posted by junglejake

Originally posted by riley
There is precedent.. if not there is always a first time for everything.

From the link you provided:

Most modern scholars dismiss Pope Joan as a Medieval legend

They say the same for Jesus yet with both of them there is at least some evidence. the Vatican may deny her existence but that stands to reason given women are suppose to be less than men. They may have re-wrote history to suit themselves. Regardless he should not be above the law.

He is making a mockery of Jesus' teachings.

Which ones? There was already an investigation taking place.

Only after a media blitz.

there was just not one case covered up.. and i highly doubt Jesus would morally approve.

Just because I do not agree with you does not mean I know less than you.

You're taking offense at something not intended to cause offense. You know things I do not, and I know things you do not.

So.. (paraphrased) "No offense but I still no more about this than you." :shk: Sounds kinda insulting to me given I've been posting on this subject for years and remember having had many discussions with you.. can't remember what about exactly but I have indeed proven myself in this regard.

As to assuming the Catholic Church is going to collapse as a result of some media spin, you haven't studied church history.

The media did not exist to the extent is does today and 500 years ago the church controlled what the masses had access to.. and that is just the people who could read.. people who were legally allowed to read. I can look though history and see plenty of religious leaders sacked so to say it won't happen based on historical events doesn't make sense.

We all have interests, and we all have various amounts of time with which to pursue those interests. To state that one should investigate the history of the church as well as this specific incident since it appears the accusations/suspicions are arising from a lack of information is an insult would be like telling a 3rd grader he must study his times tables is insulting. Or for a history teacher to tell their class to study the US Civil War for a test. It's not insulting. It's a suggestion.

You are back peddling.. I do not accept your continued assertion that I am ignorant of church history. You can say it yet again even nicer but it's still comes off as insulting.

[edit on 10-4-2010 by riley]

Originally posted by riley
the Vatican may deny her existence

But they'll use it as precedent to impeach the current Pope?

Regardless he should not be above the law.

This isn't what's being discussed, nor what I was talking about...

and i highly doubt Jesus would morally approve.

Based on what?

You can say it yet again even nicer but it's still comes off as insulting.

Then be insulted. It wasn't the intent, but if that's how you want to take it, I'm not responsible for that.

I just wrote a long winded response about the church and why it is like it is, and I hit the new thread button.

Dear God. I apologize Riley, when I get the will to I will re write all of what i just wrote.


and BTW the church will never be overcome, this is Gods promise. What we are witnessing is near the end the prophecied infiltration of the hierarchy. free masonic infiltration. The media attacks, and antichrist will use all these to try and bring it down which will cause the prophecy in daniel to take place.

" He will take away the continual sacrafice "

for a period. But he will not fully overcome the Church.

I'm going to add more to this tommorrow.

[edit on 10-4-2010 by JesusisTruth]

Originally posted by junglejake

Originally posted by riley
the Vatican may deny her existence

But they'll use it as precedent to impeach the current Pope?

They may.. or they may come up with something new to address this an prove to the world that they are not above the laws of man.

Regardless he should not be above the law.

This isn't what's being discussed, nor what I was talking about...

I'm sorry? You have taken it upon yourself to make the discussion about IF he was sacked even though I requested in the OP that that not be the issue yet YOU have decided thats what MY thread should be about yet now accuse me of derailing it?

A reminder:

I do not want this to be a discussion about the elite having legal or his moral immunity.

Understand?

Originally posted by kidflash2008
reply to post by riley

 

My mother and sister are devout Catholics and they have total support for the Pope.

What have they said about cover ups?

Considering the Pope is in his 80s, the Church will most likely wait until the man either passes away or steps down for health reasons.

A couple of my relatives are supporting him as well and seem to be buying the "petty gossip from liars" line. If he dies before setting things right and the new admin try just move on and bury it it may just piss people off.

..but hear no evil see no evil I guess. If people do not want to see what is happening they will just close their eyes to it.

The only thing the scandal might really affect is Pope John Paul II's sainthood. He was the one ultimately in charge during the scandals (for the most part).

That is an excellent point. The current pope did play his part but I think the things he has said has not helped his moral credibility. Advising aids sufferers not to wear condoms for example.. or blaming feminism for the credit crunch. I actually liked the last pope (past tense). He and the dalai lama seemed to get along as well which was nice and he did seem to be genuinely compassionate for the most part. This current pope seems to be very intolerant of other religions however.

I would also like to hear from other Catholics about whether there is widespread support for the Pope in office now.

I do not think this will cause the total downfall, but it will stop any momentum of people returning to the Church, and will start others leaving for the Orthodox Churches (they are very much like the Catholic Church).

Yeah they might just switch to protestant or just read the new testament at home. They do not need a church to be christian.

[edit on 10-4-2010 by riley]

reply to post by riley


For starters, the world will be a better place.

A MUCH better place.



Peace

reply to post by JesusisTruth


If the anti-christ is the one behind this train steamrolling towards the rc church with no brakes, then I say more power to him.

Anyone who wants to bring down a worldwide peadophile ring is alright in my book.



Peace

Originally posted by JesusisTruth
I just wrote a long winded response about the church and why it is like it is, and I hit the new thread button.

Dear God. I apologize Riley, when I get the will to I will re write all of what i just wrote.

No probs.

and BTW the church will never be overcome, this is Gods promise.

1. The church has committed many evils.. why would a moral god not want it to fall?
2. As I said in the OP.. the question is "when it falls" I did not want this subject being about it not falling as then it becomes about the immunity of the elite and prophecies in the bible. I do not believe the prophecies in the bible will happen. Try think abnout what the world would be like it they sacked this current pope.

What we are witnessing is near the end the prophecied infiltration of the hierarchy. free masonic infiltration. The media attacks, and antichrist will use all these to try and bring it down which will cause the prophecy in daniel to take place.

" He will take away the continual sacrafice "

for a period. But he will not fully overcome the Church.

I'm going to add more to this tommorrow.

I am a bit confused as to what you mean here.. it requires believing in the mason/Illuminati link and believing in the devil. I believe in neither. I do believe in evil but I think the devil is blamed when people want to indulge in it.

He won't be sacked (though I agree he should be). They'll wait for him to die.

His successor, coming from church leadership, would be just as culpable for covering up the crimes, so what would it really matter anyhow?

I mean, if you can become the Pope after being a member of Hitler Youth...what else is there really? C'mon?

reply to post by riley


In response to your question of what my mother and sister think about the scandal is it is the media attacking the Church.

Catholics and many Protestants need to go to Church. I also made the point that they could stay home and read the Bible and was told one needs a reverend or pastor to help with its meaning/translation. (The churches do not want to lose their 10% cut of your wages either.) Since Orthodox Christian churches are much closer to Catholicism than Protestant ones, I would imagine they would be getting a big boost if things really get bad for the Pope.

Originally posted by Gazrok
He won't be sacked (though I agree he should be). They'll wait for him to die.

It's a hypothetical scenario.. partially intended to see how open people are to the idea of him being culpable. Asking when was meant to illicit more honest responses.. at this point in time his position has never been so vulnerable. In regard to his how unlikely it is.. they could wait for him to die but how long will that take? he is bloody old but even just living out the next year could cause irreversible damage.

They could kill him off and call it natural causes though.

His successor, coming from church leadership, would be just as culpable for covering up the crimes, so what would it really matter anyhow?

It is his actions before he was made pope that are causing the most controversy. He was in charge of covering up for child rapists. If he were to (ahem) die of old age suddenly I can guarantee they will replace him with someone who's morally impeccable and actually Christ-like rather than someone who had already had such a suspicious background. Imo he was only made pope because the guys that voted him in are the same ones that he protected.

I mean, if you can become the Pope after being a member of Hitler Youth...what else is there really? C'mon?

I used to think it was unfair to hold that against him but the bigoted and intolerant things that have come out of his mouth make me think those teachings sank in after all.

[edit on 12-4-2010 by riley]

Here's the thing... I know folks say "he didn't have a choice" in the whole Hitler Youth thing.

I say BS...he had a choice, his ideals, or his safety. He chose safety. That doesn't make him a bad person, but it doesn't qualify him for sainthood either (or being the Pope).

I'd think people would want their Pope to be beyond reproach...but guess not.

reply to post by Gazrok


That was also 70+ years ago, and one might expect the Bible play a role. It says elders are to be beyond reproach, but that is more current, especially given the context of the scripture speaking of such, in a pagan town with many new converts. It is not your past that is to be beyond reproach, but your present. That your past was filled with sin only reinforced (from the same book of the Bible) that we need Christ as our redeemer.

So if he still embraces the Hitler Youth values today, then he's not beyond reproach. If, instead, he has abandoned whatever influence they may have had on him as a child, I think he still fits the bill.

On a side note... Boy, tell me 4 years ago I'd be defending a pope, I'd have been shocked... Yet, today, I believe it is Christ that matters, not labels and prejudices. Funny how we change over the years as we come to know more and more...

I'm not saying the guy should be without sin, but there is a certain level one would seem to expect of a Pope, and I'd think that participation (willing or not) in a regime of genocide, would at least bump one to the bottom of the consideration list...no matter how old he was at the time.... That's all I'm sayin' One would expect a Papal candidate to be held to a higher standard, than us mere everyday men.... No?

I just don't think we're ever going to see an end to the church covering up these crimes, and moving these priests elsewhere, vs. getting these guys away from the public, and to mental health professionals. The church has not only sheltered these guys, but in all likelihood, contributed to the problem, by practicing vows in direct conflict with the instincts of man. None of this would change if the Pope was ousted, etc.

[edit on 13-4-2010 by Gazrok]