Revelation; Silence in heaven

reply to post by DISRAELI
Disraeli,

In the fifth chap. it is a definetly a book, read--

Re 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Re 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Re 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

But in chap.6: Re 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
That is the only scroll in the text and that is about heaven when things are shaken up. Chap. 6 is when He begins to open the seals of the book He is found Worthy to open in chap. 5. I use the KJV Bible and it is Book.

I will drop that with you and of the horsemen of the first 4 seals I do find the first 3 have been opened and it looks like what is coming on the earth the fourth is being opened or is right at the door. It was a measuring up in the third seal and this one the judgement is meted out.

Re 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Re 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

This is the last invitation to "come and see" as it appears it is too late to come and see after it. These I find are the four sore judgments of God found in Eze.--( slightly different way from Rev. but the same )
Eze 14:21 For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?

That is as far I will go on the horsemen except for the fourth seal pale horse I commented on as this one is coming and all should see it looming on the horizon.

I don't want to go back and forth on this as I find it is not profitable.

Truthiron

On the argument on the length of the half hour and hour in the presence of God then there is a problem when it comes to Revelation. And it is Matthew 24 verse 22.

If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

The timeframe in heaven and earth is being disturbed by the events of the end times. Time will be speeding up as Revelation unfolds. There is no real way to determine the length of the half hour or the hour. But Daniel 9 states that in the last week of 7 years an agreement will be signed and then broken 3 and 1/2 years later.

So while normally a half hour would be like approximatly 20.83 years on the earth per Matthew 24 it's probably much shorter. And the hour probably falls in the 3.5 years of the desecrated temple.

Originally posted by truthiron
In the fifth chap. it is a definetly a book, read--
Re 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book,

Other translations use the word "scroll", and they do so quite legitimately because they mean the same thing.
In those days, a book would be written in the form of a scroll. Publishing books with pages in the modern sense did not become normal practice until later.
This becomes clear in the Greek.
The word used in both cases is BIBLIOS.
In ch5, the Lamb takes and unseals a BIBLIOS
In ch6 v14, the heavens are rolled up like a BIBLIOS
They are the same thing- the distinction between them is artificial.
So we know that there is a book or scroll in ch5 and we know there is a book or scroll in ch20. But my contention is that these are two different books. The first one was opened in ch6
This shows, amongst other things, that it is a mistake to rely too heavily on the exact wording of the Authorised Version.


On the phrase "Come and see";
Modern scholars, looking at the manuscripts, are convinced that the words "and see" are not there in the original text. They understand the word "Come!" as a summons directed at each individual horseman. That is why it is no longer used after all four horsemen have been sent out by this instruction.

I see the first three horsemen as part and parcel of the catastrophe involving the fourth horseman. But if we both agree that the fourth horseman has not taken place, it comes to the same thing.

reply to post by ntech

"Those days" in the Matthew quotation is a loose expression meaning a whole period of time.
if you are expecting something to last for six months, and it lasts for five months instead, then "those days" have been shortened.
It is certainly not meant to indicate the the individual time-period of one day gets shorter.

I laid out my full view on the "Hour" in my most recent thread;
A time, times, and half a time
but I'll repeat it here.
Daniel calls the ruler's reign a "week"; in the second half-week, the ruler stops the worship of God. So the first half-week is the period when he doesn't stop the worship of God.
Revelation ch17 v12 gives the ruler an "Hour". I equate this "half an hour" with the first half of the "hour", because it is followed by the trumpets and vials etc in the second half of the hour.
So, in summary;
Daniel gives the ruler a "week", divided into a "peaceful" first half and a "troubled" second half.
Revelation gives the ruler an "hour", divided into a "peaceful" first half and a "troubled" second half.
This tells me that the "week" and the "hour" are two different labels for the same thing.
And that the "half an hour" is simply an alternative label for the "half a week".

reply to post by DISRAELI


I appologise for not reading through all the pages I have mearly read your opening post. I thank you for bringing this up. I am not well versed on the bible.

There WAS silence in heaven. It started on April 20th when the oil rig exploded. It lasted for several days.

To clear that up a bit...I am a medium. The night it happened was awefull. Then there was silence. It was nothing I had ever experienced before and nothing I care to experience ever again. There was truely nothing. I used to go to the woods to feel the energy there....there was nothing. There was not a single soul or bit of energy to be felt or heard anywhere. Total silence. I fell apart. It was terrifing for me.

I have since talked to many people who are like me some know they are others who just know they experience a lot of de ja voo. Some even became suicidal that day.

It is not quiet anymore. But something else did happen September 23 and 24th that was of importance but I dont understand it yet. Like someone was born or reborn on the 23rd and the 24th a trumpet sounded and they rejoiced. But I have no idea what the heck that was about. A friend said that could have been personal. He mentioned 1 Corintheans 14:8 which very well could be it, but it doesnt fit the bill so to speak. That gives no reason why "they " would rejoice in a very "game on" kind of way.

Not sure if that is helpfull to you but figured I would mention it.

reply to post by DISRAELI


Just another thought on the original post. Another way to get a better idea on what is going on in Revelation would be to look at alternative prophesies that cover the same period of time. So after some thought I would pose this.

After looking at the prophesies of Daniel I would pose that Daniel 8 and 11 are end time prophesies. And while they may have occurred once I would pose based on the wording of the prophesies that they were to repeat in their entirety. And cover the same time period more or less as Revelation.

I cover that theory here. www.abovetopsecret.com...

So assuming they both start at about the same time this is where I see the half hour falling in Daniel. Between the events of 11-4 and 8-20 and the signing of the agreement of 11-5 and 6. Daniel appears to set up the end times as a mini apocalypse as a preview of things to come and then the main event happens with 11-5 and then gives a very detailed prophesy of the events of the last seven years of the time of the end.

So in the Daniel timeline I see "Persia" being destroyed. Then after accomplishing that the "realm of Greece" in the prophecy is fractured by a disaster into 4 lesser states. I would pose that the disaster is the 6th seal of Revelation being opened. And then the half hour falls after the destruction of Daniel 11-4 and the signing of the agreement of 11-5 which also would be the agreement of Daniel 9-27.

Then the trumpets start sounding later on in Daniel 11-6 and 7.

I suggest to everyone interested in understanding the bible to read the scriptures of Emmanuel Swedenborg, the last true prophet of Jesus.

Here you can find many of this texts in full text format:

www.sacred-texts.com...


Truth-Compassion-Forbearance is good - Falun Dafa is good.

relpy to ntech

I don't mind trying to make a comparison with Daniel.
Let me see; do you agree, in the first place, that the "abomination" of Daniel ch11 v31 is the "abomination" of ch9 v27?
And that the "abomination" of ch 9v27 is the beginning of the second half-week?
I identify the trumpets with the second half-week (this comes out more clearly in the more recent "Time, times, and half a time" thread.) So I would regard them as the instruments of the "decreed end" mentioned in the end of ch9 v27, and with the climax of ch12 when "Michael stands up".
And I identify the "half an hour" with the first portion of the week. Therefore the first part of ch9 v27.

reply to post by DISRAELI


Answers to your questions.

Let me see; do you agree, in the first place, that the "abomination" of Daniel ch11 v31 is the "abomination" of ch9 v27? And that the "abomination" of ch 9v27 is the beginning of the second half-week?

Yes.

As far as the trumpets go I think they may start earlier than the desecration of the temple. There is actually quite a bit going on once the trumpets start sounding. There is 7 trumpets, then there is the 7 thunders which there is little information on except that they happen. I suspect that they are sequential and something along the lines of the trumpet and the bowl or vial judgements. Then there is the bowl judgements that definitely occur during the last 3.5 years. If Revelation is sequential like Daniel then the trumpets occur in the first 3.5 years. Chap. 13 of Revelation corresponds to the rise of the Antichrist. The thunders could occur prior or during the early part of his rise to power.

Originally posted by ntech
As far as the trumpets go ...Then there is the bowl judgements that definitely occur during the last 3.5 years. If Revelation is sequential like Daniel then the trumpets occur in the first 3.5 years. Chap. 13 of Revelation corresponds to the rise of the Antichrist. The thunders could occur prior or during the early part of his rise to power.

To me, Revelation is mostly sequential, but not fully.
One of the key exceptions is that I see chs 12-13 as a "flashback" sequence, explaining the backgound to the events of Revelation in the same way as a flashback does in movies. The beginning of ch12 takes the story right back to the birth of Christ. Then the rest of the chapter explains how the Atonement ("Satan falls from heaven") accounts for Satan's hostility to the people of Christ, and how he calls up the Beast as something to be used against them. The first Beast is a political state or series of them; I've suggested that the "mortal wound" of ch13 v3 can be equated with the catastrophic events of ch6.

Then the beginning of the "seven years" coincides both with the "recovery" from the mortal wound and with the temporary cessation of wrath in ch7 v1. The "silence in heaven for half an hour" is another label for the first three and a half year period, as explained in the OP. The trumpets follow this period, so they must come in the second three and a half years.

In my mind, the trumpets and the bowls are as closely connected as the events of 9/11. The trumpets are the equivalent of the first plane crashing. The vials are the equivalent of the building collapsing. In other words, they're both describing the same events, but the trumpets are announcing the beginning of the process, and the vials are showing the final culmination of the process. This is going to come out more in my next thread on the trumpets.

reply to post by DISRAELI


I am not sure but perhaps heaven is the 'higher mind/thoughts' and with the epiphany there was silence of the higher mind/thoughts for about half an hour?

I often think heaven is the higher mind/self...

or all the voices (voice of criticism and reasoning) were silent for that time?

reply to post by Thurisaz

Have you had time to read the OP itself, or are you just commenting on the title?

reply to post by DISRAELI


why do you ask?

second line!!!!!

Originally posted by DISRAELI
What does he mean by "half an hour"?

What does he mean by "silence in heaven"?

Wasn't I biblical enough for you???
You asked these questions and I answered.
Be grateful for a response at all, OP
there may not be another response...

pfffffffffffft

Originally posted by DISRAELI
Perhaps you can see where this is heading.

utting those two pieces of information together, I suggest that "There was silence in heaven for half an hour" can be interpreted as "The Beast rules for a certain period of time, and for the first half of that period God does not trouble it, does not try to destroy it."

A psychological perspective isn't what you want to hear is it??

Saint John was kept in prison and wrote Revelations during that time. Trauma can do a lot to a persons brain.
He, like Daniel was OB during this time but people don't like to be logical with scripture do they?

Originally posted by Thurisaz
people don't like to be logical with scripture do they?

My approach in all my Revelation threads has been gathering information and correlating it, trying to establish the logical relationship between different statements. To me, that is treating the text logically. It is called exegesis.
In your first comment,you had some idea of your own, and you were taking an isolated phrase and trying to make it fit your own viewpoint. That is called eisegesis.

Originally posted by Thurisaz
Wasn't I biblical enough for you???

Be grateful for a response at all, OP
there may not be another response...

This is an exercise in interpreting a Biblical text, which means, I think, that a Biblical approach has priority.
To me, the meaning of any text, Biblical or otherwise, is the meaning intended by the author, which makes it important to establish exactly what that intended meaning is.

I was going to comment on the second sentence there, but changed my mind. No point in both of us getting heated.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
This is an exercise in interpreting a Biblical text, which means

hmm... well in future when you start a thread you need to insert a sentence that states such.

So much for an intelligent debate on an issue!

never mind... plenty more threads out there.

Originally posted by Thurisaz
hmm... well in future when you start a thread you need to insert a sentence that states such.

I propose to continue assuming, as in the twenty other threads I started on this book, that the placing of the thread speaks for itself.
On the Prophecies forum, which is about ancient prophecies, I am discussing the meaning, which is necessarily the intended meaning, of a specific ancient prophecy, which also happens to be a constituent part of the Bible.
You must choose for yourself whether you boycott the others for that reason.

I have a response,
too mrsdudara up there on page three.

I caused Katrina. Accidentally.
I caused the oil spill to cause an Ice age. Intentionally this round. Later I felt that not _everyone_ should suffer _forever_ so it was cut short.

As to the 23rd of September.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Yeah, only one seemed to notice.

The day after this I could see the bottom of the cup of bitter dregs and drank faster.
It's over now. The cup has been taken away from me and will be given to my enemies.
Boy, let me tell you... it's really hard not to commit suicide while drinking it.

Well talk again on November 1st.


David Grouchy