Plane carrying Polish president Lech Kaczynski crashes near Russian airport, CONFIRMED DEAD

reply to post by Kuronokei


We had a guy post earlier about how these kind of crashes were common place in Poland. He said it wasn't the first time a large number of Government officials died in a plane/heli accident. Give me a sec, I'll find his post.

Regards,
Maestro

Originally posted by henieck
....

Guys, there may not be any conspiracy. This is Poland - a bunch of top officials go into a piece of junk, pilot thinks he is the best in the world and procedures don't apply to him, and they all crash the second time within 2-3 years. Including one more helicopter accident with Miller (prime minister back then) - there have been 3 accidents last few years - but Miller survived OK thanks to very high skills of the military pilot who landed on autorotation wracking the chopper. Nobody changed a thing after the first accident with military elite when died 16 different air-force generals in one place and time. Two years later instead of 16 we lost almost 90 most important people in power. Such a circus only here, in Poland. Can you get now how looks our tax system and law? It is a total mess full of contradictions and stupidity made by incompetent people who couldn't even properly secure theirs safety.

Everything looks like that in this sick country. Everybody is incompetent thinking he knows the best at the same time. Watch now how Poland will organize Euro 2012 - European Football Cup - it is going to be a shame.

This time there were few factors all together. If separate - none would do any harm, but poorly equipped Russian airport, not quite ideal weather (by the way -there was no wind at all), time pressure, pilot's hubris, old airplane and lack of wide safety standards all adds up from time to time to such a big scale tragedy. No secret agency had to help this suicide mission. Not interfering with our “specialists” was enough. When they were in Norway president's plane couldn't put up landing gear (finally it did), another time it caught fire - it was close to tragedy many, many times before.

There it is.

Regards,
Maestro

My sincere condolences to the people of Poland.

Takes me back the assassination of our President, John F. Kennedy. In my opinion, the last U.S. President who cared about we the people.

This is another assassination by the "globalists" ...

Why don't the people who post that this was a planned assassination present a valid theory on how it took place? There obviously was no explosive device. No bullet to the back of the head.

The circumstances do not appear to be questionable. There was heavy fog. Other planes were unable to land and had to be diverted. The plane was on the 4th approach. Why wasn't it brought down earlier if it was an assassination? It could have landed without an incident on the previous 3 attempts.

So rather than stating that this is a conspiracy forum and that we must "Deny Ignorance", why not present a theory that it at least seems valid and stands up to the known facts? And also what about the motive? What would Russia gain from this - it is not like Poland would not remain in NATO and choose new leadership, likely to be as pro-NATO as Kazcynski.




But no it must have been the evil communist anti-gravity, anti-Polish, weather-influencing, navigation-destabilizing, death beam coming from the Russian Mothership in space. And it was controlled by Putin himself, no doubt wearing his old KGB uniform for the symbolic smugness factor. He must have though long and hard how best to bring the jet down in the most sinister manner - explaining why he had to wait until the 4th landing attempt.

And now all of Poland shall be Russia's!!!. But what about NATO you ask? Hah - Obama is actually a communist KGB puppet, and if anything he will facilitate Russia's subversion of Poland. I wouldn't fly if I was President of Czech Republic or Slovakia - they are next. And communism isn't dead yet, and neither is Stalin - he was the one who truly assassinated Kennedy from the grassy knol. This is all part of the master plan of communist-NWO alliance.


So how did I do with my totally absurd, yet Denying Ignorance theory? Do I fit the ATS conspiracist profile now?

Guys, there may not be any conspiracy. This is Poland - a bunch of top officials go into a piece of junk, pilot thinks he is the best in the world and procedures don't apply to him, and they all crash the second time within 2-3 years. Including one more helicopter accident with Miller (prime minister back then) - there have been 3 accidents last few years - but Miller survived OK thanks to very high skills of the military pilot who landed on autorotation wracking the chopper. Nobody changed a thing after the first accident with military elite when died 16 different air-force generals in one place and time. Two years later instead of 16 we lost almost 90 most important people in power. Such a circus only here, in Poland. Can you get now how looks our tax system and law? It is a total mess full of contradictions and stupidity made by incompetent people who couldn't even properly secure theirs safety.

Polands been doing pretty good these days and now we know why. The politicians are consistently killed in high numbers.

Time to chip in I suppose.

OK, Yes.. ATS is a conspiracy web site.

However it should be noted that 'conspiracy' and 'idiocy' are two different things and 'Denying ignorance' should permit one to 'attempt' to refute both.


Now then, Lets take a look and see what we 'reliably' know.



1.
The presidents plane (a TU-154M, 3 or 4 man flight crew, range 5000Km) left Warsaw Poland to Fly to Smolensk Russia.

It did not leave from Russia and it never landed (safely) in Russia. Russian Engineers never touched the plane and despite its reputation actually has a 'not too bad' service history. (Most losses have been caused by people not the plane itself.)

2.
The Smolensk Airport is a small military Air Field that does not support ILS.

Where as the TU-154M has CAT II ILS the airfield itself does not support it. So... No. No one is going to be stealing ideas from Hollywood and 'changing ground level'.
Approaches made would be by manual control.

3.
There was heavy fog. The airfield itself was technically closed at the time and flights were being diverted. 1 Local pilot considered the landing to be impossible and aircraft had already been diverted.

(You can still see a lot of fog about in the wreckage pictures.)

4.
The pilot made 3 unsuccessful attempts to land and crashed on the 4th.

5.
The investigation into the crash is a joint operation between both Russia and Poland, headed by Putin on the Russian side..(I can't honestly imagine too many people in Russia would be willing to tell him 'no')

6.
(Unverified) Initial reports say the Black boxes indicate the first 3 unsuccessful landing attempts were by the book and the fatal attempt deviated from the norm being much lower than the previous 3* ~ this may be speculated upon but if true will pretty much confirm my hypothesis.


So.
Hypothesis.

An experienced pilot and crew left Poland headed for Russia on a short trip (very short for the planes capability).

Sometime during the flight they were told the airport was closed and were advised to divert.

They did not.

*Three times they tried a 'by the book' limited landing with no ILS support and poor viability which other experienced pilots considered dangerous.
One the fourth attempt, the pilot changed his decent angle and attempted a lower approach.

He knew where the ground was.

He could not see the trees due to the fog.

The aircraft cut itself to pieces.

Everyone involved gets to add their names to the long list of people killed in air accidents.


The Conspiracy Angle?
Yup.

The black box recordings will be released in a somewhat edited form.
Somewhere along the line a section of dialog from the cockpit voice recorders will go missing.
This missing dialog will have occurred somewhere between the weather warning and the 1st landing attempt.
It will consist of someone entering the cabin and over ruling the concerns of the crew effectively ordering them to do something they know to be pretty much suicidal. (either a jobs worth lackey, a presidential official or maybe even the man himself) and everyone will have died because someone decided the timetable of 1 person can override the laws of physics.
The pilot will get the blame.

Floors open to a debunking.

GO!

reply to post by Vitchilo


Lets all hope that this was simple a place crash, I don't think we need any more trouble brewing right now. But till we know, keep vigilant.

The black box recordings will be released in a somewhat edited form.

The black boxes will be looked into by both Russian and Polish investigators. Who do you think are going to edit conversations and equipment readout recordings? Russians or Poles? Maybe both?

reply to post by JanusFIN


That is the key factor 'blackbox its alright saying airtraffic was sending warnings but was he recieving them? was the plane having electrical faults mabe who knows

Both.

Russia won't want to look like the bad guy here and neither the Poles or Russians will benefit from the reputation of the 'important' Dead being dragged through the mud.

Imagine the consequences of someone ordering the flight crew to do something dangerous in the name of the President himself that consequentially got him killed.

They'll sacrifice the least important and most obvious target in the name of the majority.

After all... its NEVER the commanders fault when his troops do something wrong.

Originally posted by Absence of Self
Both.

Russia won't want to look like the bad guy here and neither the Poles or Russians will benefit from the reputation of the 'important' Dead being dragged through the mud.

1. What if the black boxes recordings don't need to be edited?

2. It's almost impossible to make up a plane equipment readout recordings. At least no one fabricated it properly so far.

[edit on 11-4-2010 by propf]

reply to post by Vitchilo


We should tune our ears to the "Warsaw express" in Hungary and listen for their reaction. Often times if an event in Poland is deemed politically important the fallout is heard in Hungary.

reply to post by maloy


You assert that people shouldn't post unless they have valid theory (as it is determined by you).

Yet, you maintain your attempt to "Deny Ignorance"

Then, let the ideas come out..."Deny Hypocrisy"

Originally posted by Absence of Self
3. There was heavy fog. (...)(You can still see a lot of fog about in the wreckage pictures.)

to be precise this was a very thick layer of clouds with very low base. Below the cloud's base there was OK visibility, no fog all the way to the ground. Once below the base -the plane was clearly visible far from the distance. Neither there was any substantial wind present. I live few hundreds kilometers from this place - and we had exactly the same strange, heavy weather, a bit even depressing, not much light below the thick cloud layer comparing to most common cloudy days. This hopeless mass of clouds was present in my place for ca 4 days - so it was big.

These were the facts, now some speculation:

Some fog you can see on the pictures is in my opinion mostly the condensate on smoke particles after the crash and steam form fireman's action.
I can imagine, that the pilot was to the certain degree forced to flight below the low cloud's base - or he might have chosen to do so on the expense of having not optimal vertical approach path later. Moreover - I can also imagine, that after 3 rounds he messed up normally stable layer of clouds in this corridor to some degree.

The previous catastrophe was in January 2008
www.youtube.com...
There were pilots coming back form the conference about flight safety. Together 20 top pilots, nobody survived. Everybody were asking why all so important people had to fly together. If the president addressed that issue - perhaps we would not have such a heavy blow now.

and another accident with prime minister Miller:
both engines damaged (original audio tape with fake engine soud I presume)
www.youtube.com... (everybody survived).

So we had some material to thing about...

reply to post by JanusFIN


Hi Janus,
I,m new to the ATS. But yes I have already commented on 9/11 in several posts. Just hit the Posts button in this reply box, and it will take you to all my posts.

Cheers

reply to post by propf


Not exactly:
1. Poland refused bailing out the banks
- there was no need for this as Polish banks were not doing business with US banks. But UE is pressing for change of Polish law so it will be worse in near future. Besides Poland is quite broke.

2. Poland refused swine flu vaccination
- it was health minister E. Kopacz who refused to take responsibility for vaccine makers. One person on the plane (Kochanowski - Citizens Rights) which died in the crash threatened Kopacz with prosecution for this.

3. Abortions in Poland are banned
- yes but a lot of Polish women travel abroad to do this. I suppose ruling "liberals" will change this law soon too.

4. Poland is 100% Christian country and always has been Christian
- not really. Polish are mostly Catholic but not 100% and not all practicing.
And sure not always.

5. Poland refused IMF/WB currency policy
- which policy? Poland sold nearly all of public property (banks, industry) and is indebted quite as every other IMF/WB client.

and was only Eastern European country with GDP going up in 2008/2009
- this because of projects partly sponsored by the EU and partly by debt.
This is also because of the Euro 2012 football championship which will be in Poland if they make to build everything on time. This means huge spending and more debt. Who needs it?

6. Poland came to be not hostile to Russia in last year
I and a lot of Poles was not hostile to Russia even earlier.

Why I wonder, was it ever approved that this plane should land on an airport runway that wasn't equipped for planes its size and structure.
Can anyone tell me?

to me the real conspiracy stuff wont happen until after theyve put a new president in office.. see how much influence the russians have with them then.. like kyrgyzstan ya know..

In Danish television yesterday, said the journalist that the plane sent out Mayday and was refused landing four times and direct to another place. The crash is not a coincidence, in my view.

Originally posted by aboxoftrix
Why I wonder, was it ever approved that this plane should land on an airport runway that wasn't equipped for planes its size and structure.

in the first accident two years ago died one air force general and 19 lower ones. This time died very top 6 generals according to the hierarchy. If you include the president who is in charge of the military - this is 7 in a row most important military people from the top. Now there is no one to even give daily orders in Iraq and Afghanistan. A loss of that significance has never else happened in the whole world history, including any war time. “Made in Poland”.