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Alright, Taxes discussion, what is actually FAIR?

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posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 09:47 PM
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Okay, the US personal income tax system is over 45,000 pages!




I want the ATS members to breakdown either why the US system of taxation is correct and fair, or why that the system as it exists today, is unfair.


Now, we have in the US about four levels of government. City, County, State, Federal.

Next, we have taxation systems at every level. We have NO idea what our actual effective rate of taxation is!

Now, I am only asking, what is your taxation system, do you have ANY idea what your actual effective tax rate is?




posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 10:01 PM
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I don't believe there is any need for direct taxation of any kind. The government is not above the people. The government can not hold a gun to the peoples heads. Any tolerance of this only encourages more sovereignty being eroded. The government needs money it can beg for it from the people and people should have the option to go outside the government to provide what they need. If the road needs to be fixed the neighborhood does the work or hires it done or pays the city/county/state to do it. Donations are the way to reduce power from the government. Some basic, capped sales taxes and corporate licensing fees should cover critical expenses like fire/emergency.



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 10:07 PM
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Originally posted by endisnighe

Okay, the US personal income tax system is over 45,000 pages!




I want the ATS members to breakdown either why the US system of taxation is correct and fair, or why that the system as it exists today, is unfair.


Now, we have in the US about four levels of government. City, County, State, Federal.

Next, we have taxation systems at every level. We have NO idea what our actual effective rate of taxation is!

Now, I am only asking, what is your taxation system, do you have ANY idea what your actual effective tax rate is?


Start with a 99 percent death tax on anything over 5 million dollars.
"Where wealth is hereditary, power is hereditary." John Locke

That would solve most of the problems we have.

However you will see that most people wont agree to that because they
WORSHIP money.

[edit on 9-4-2010 by RRokkyy]



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 10:10 PM
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reply to post by ReelView
 


Okay, this is someone that has been a member for a long time; He is crazy!


What exactly is our taxation used for?


Life is but a dream right?



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 10:11 PM
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reply to post by endisnighe
 



do you have ANY idea what your actual effective tax rate is?


To be honest, I don't.

Like, most folks, I complain and of course, like most folks, I continue to pay them.

It basically boils down to two things, be a law-abiding citizen or be in trouble with the law.

Most people were taught to be law-abiding citizens.



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 10:16 PM
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reply to post by jam321
 


See, that is what pisses me off, we have no idea what we pay in taxes.

We have no idea what all the difference in total taxes are. Might just as well give them our entire life and just forget the entire freedom movement.

We are being used. The government is using our industrious attitude fro implementation.



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 10:26 PM
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reply to post by endisnighe
 


Maybe we ought to ask for government transparency and mandate that each level of government release exactly what our effective tax rate is.

But even if they did this, it would still not change the fact that we are being taxed at will.

BTW, do you consider fees and fines as taxes?



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 10:30 PM
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Originally posted by jam321
reply to post by endisnighe
 


Maybe we ought to ask for government transparency and mandate that each level of government release exactly what our effective tax rate is.

But even if they did this, it would still not change the fact that we are being taxed at will.

BTW, do you consider fees and fines as taxes?


Anything that is a fee is a tax. Anything that is a license is a tax. Anything that is a debt; is a tax.

If you have started a business you know what I mean.



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 10:31 PM
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Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by ReelView
 


Okay, this is someone that has been a member for a long time; He is crazy!


Just Kurious, what does length of ATS membership have to do with validity of opinion?

Are you implying that the opinion of posters who have been here the longest carry more weight?



[edit on 9-4-2010 by kinda kurious]



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 10:32 PM
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IMHO, even though i don't live in the US or pay taxes in the US, taxation is a necessary evil in any country. The country should learn to work within a set amount of income. What is fair? Well how about 350 million people pay $10,000 a year maximum including all 4 levels of taxes levied. There is still POS taxes which will add to the Govt. over all share, but the maximum should be 5% sales taxes at POS. The Govt. can then supplement income through lotteries, fund raising(donations etc..) and reduced govt. the infrastructure of the country has to be maintained but not at the cost it is currently. The govt. should no longer be a unionized setting(?)( in Canada it's all union) For the most part since the Fed is actually a private corp, so should all it's employees be, contractors paid by bids. For example why does it cost $1,000,000 to build 6 miles of highway?

Could everyone afford $10,000 a year I don't know but maybe it's too high but you see where i am going. How does it cost a trillion dollars to maintain 350 million people? You know, Canada is not much better. If I ran my own business at a deficit, i would lose my business, no doubt. Why is it ok to run the country at a deficit?



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 10:35 PM
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reply to post by kinda kurious
 


Sorry KK, I give respect to people that have been longer members.

Do you have a problem with that?



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 10:37 PM
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BTW in reference to the actual question, does the govt. not already provide the information as to what the dollars are being spent on? Here( Canada) we can see online what expenditures are and details of spending for local and provincial spending.



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 10:37 PM
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All taxation is unjust by definition. Anytime any person or institution uses force, or the threat of force for any end it is unjust. Taxation is brainwashed into us as something necessary, or something that society needs to exist. Reality is your taxation does little for you. Local property taxes pay for schools(with some Federal money if you do what they say), cops, fire rescue, roads(except interstates). What about your other taxes? Medicare, medicaid, and welfare go bankrupt by 2019 to 2047 depending on who is saying. So all I have given will never come back to me. My income tax is also wasted. About half your income tax goes to imperialism. The other half goes to paying the interest on debt YOU OWE BECAUSE YOUR GOVERNMENT CANNOT BUDGET ITSELF. Capital gains taxes, death taxes, etc. Who knows where they go. Just because somebody told me that tyranny is freedom my whole life does not make it true.



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 10:40 PM
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Microsoft has to pay 100% of all taxes as restitution for Windows Vista!

Sound fair? I think it's fair.



Ok to be serious, toss out the tax code, 1 Page tax code, 15% tax on all goods, sales and income.

Simple and effective.

[edit on 4/9/2010 by whatukno]



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 10:40 PM
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ok here is simple

throw out the 45,000 pages
and burn them

abolish the IRS

and just pay a modest tax on goods sold

end of story



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 10:43 PM
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RRocky,

Estate tax is unfair in any way shape or form. So I work hard my whole life so my kids don't have to and I leave them $100,000,000 and you think it's ok to give over 99% of that money? Is that much money more than they need, yes, but it is mine not yours to give to my kids not yours. If you want a piece of that hundred mill, you work for it.



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 10:45 PM
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Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by kinda kurious
 


Sorry KK, I give respect to people that have been longer members.

Do you have a problem with that?


So you minimize the opinion of newer members? I'm not worried I've been here much longer than you.


Seeing how you are going to overthrow the government and all, can't you just revise it or do you simply enjoy complaining in a circle jerk? If you don't like taxes, don't pay them. I thought you were a Patriot willing to fight.


(BTW I am not here to defend the US Tax code. I complain like everybody else, but luckily my wife is a CPA and understands it all.)


[edit on 9-4-2010 by kinda kurious]

[edit on 10-4-2010 by kinda kurious]



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 10:45 PM
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Originally posted by whatukno
Microsoft has to pay 100% of all taxes as restitution for Windows Vista!

Sound fair? I think it's fair.



Ok to be serious, toss out the tax code, 1 Page tax code, 15% tax on all goods, sales and income.

Simple and effective.

[edit on 4/9/2010 by whatukno]


That scheme has the potential to take 45% of your income, is that not where we are already? That really is too high is it not?



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 10:48 PM
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What is fair?

I think it's more to do with how the money is spent/allocated than the actual tax rate.

I think most people would be happy paying a (reasonably) high tax rate if they could actually see the benefits of the tax that is taken.

When tax payers see that the leaders live like kings when they are wondering where their next meal will come from, then they believe that their tax money is being wasted and object to paying so much.

Same goes for wars that cost $720 million per day, the apparent loss of $2.3 Trillion dollars and the bailout of private businesses which (due to their own business practices) would normally fail and only have themselves to blame.

[edit on 9/4/10 by GobbledokTChipeater]



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 10:49 PM
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Okley Dokley, I was trying to get the point that tax rates are not even.


We have so many different taxation systems that the government is like a monstrosity.

Do we think of this crap?



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