Do any Catholics fully support the Church?, page 2

posted on Apr, 10 2010 @ 04:27 AM

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reply to post by Thurisaz

Here I am agreeing with you again - YES.

But guess what - governments will never go against this corrupt church because it is rich rich rich!

And guess what governments care about - money money money!

Avamarguy

posted on Apr, 10 2010 @ 05:12 AM

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Originally posted by Thurisaz

All the pompus BS is just that BS. My EX Husband was an alter boy in a boarding Catholic School and I can sure as hell asure you that my ONLY Son will never be raised in a Catholic School.

My Husband would have to kill me before I ever allowed that.

The Catholic Church is a haven for sick paedophiles...

Sadly, you are misinformed about Catholic School Education. I won't attempt to change your mind but it might do you good to do a bit of research.

CookieMonster09

posted on Apr, 10 2010 @ 03:20 PM

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Just this morning it was revealed in the Danish press, that our Bishop has TWO letters from the Vatican - one from 1962 and one from 2001 that both declared that child abuse was to be treated with the utmost secrecy and belonged under the heading "Papal Secrets" (my translation from Danish) and as such anybody revealing those secrets would be excumunicated.

What I find so strange about all of these alleged "letters" is that we never get to see the copies of the letter (an English translation would be helpful), and we never see the context in which these letters are written. Papal secrets? Can we see some evidence? All the letters that have been in the media have been small snippets. I have yet to see a media outlet release the full letter alleged to disclose a "cover-up".

The Catholic church is a corrupt and horrible edifice - I think it might be the Whore of Babylon referred to in the bible. I think all churches are corrupt, but especially this church.l

Opinion. No facts. Perhaps you might want to pick up Butler's "Lives of the Saints" to learn more about how the Church helps the poor, the oppressed, the downtrodden.

Out of the 75 Danish Catholic priests only 6 have provided the documentation required by law. The reason: Because it isn't in the law to demand the documentation for priests employed before 2005. Or so they claim.

First, the Danish Church is not the entire Church. Most countries - in the case of criminal activity - can subpoena records as enforced by the court.

Are your trying to tell me that Denmark has laws against subpoenaing records as it relates to alleged criminal activity? I highly doubt that. It's possible, but would be extremely rare.

Secondly, where is your evidence? And, please, don't post a link to a known anti-Catholic web site.

The mere fact that they don't get the documentation for priests employed before 2005 is just another way of protecting their secrets. Another way to protect the criminal actions of the very persons who guide their flock of sheep.

No, there is such a thing as a statute of limitations in most countries. You can't go on a witch hunt to defame the Church and try to subpoena Church records past the statute of limitations. It's called the rule of law.

The Church - or any falsely accused individual - is perfectly entitled to reject requests for information if the statute of limitations has passed. That's not being secretive. That's avoiding an unnecessary, hysterical witch hunt by malignant enemies of the Church.

The very same persons (popes and cardinals) who stick out guidelines on how to be a proper catholic are the ones responsible for protecting criminals within their ranks.

That's painting a very broad brush.

In the Minnesota case which was in the media recently, the current Pope didn't even learn about the facts of the case until 20 years after the fact because the local bishops never brought the case to light.

In fact, the local police authorities never pursued criminal actions against the priest in question.

The bishops - some 20 years later after the alleged abuse - were trying to appease the deaf community - and the priest was on his death bed.

Again, most of these cases are from 20-40 years ago. The best the media can do is try to dig up cases of dead priests - who aren't even alive to defend themselves against false accusations.

Your 4% should have been 0% After all we are talking about a religion who "are holier than thou".

I assume, therefore, you would say the same thing about any Protestant church, synagogue, day care facility, nursery school, kindergarten, etc.

Why single out the Catholic Church?

The 4% number is the same as what you will find in ANY clergy of ANY religious denomination.

Spanish Inquisition. Which Hunts. The killing of scientists on grounds of herecy. In newer times we have Mother Theresa. Lovely lady. Did you ever read the information on HOW the poor little orphans were treated in those orphanages.

The best you can do is come up with historical examples from centuries ago. First, the Spanish Inquisition was conducted by the Spanish Monarchy in 1478, not the Roman Catholic Church. It was a political body directly under the control of the Spanish Monarchy. Get your facts straight.

Witch hunts? From the 1400's? Is that the best you can do? You seem to gloss over the fact that both Jews, and Protestants were involved in witch hunts as well.

Mother Theresa. Here we go. A nun who dedicated her entire career to helping the poorest of the poor in Calcutta under the most impoverished conditions. And she won the Nobel Peace Prize. Critics allege (never proven in a court of law) that some of her patients were neglected. When no one else would care for these children, she did.

For every negative example you can give that defames the Church, I can show you thousands of examples of Catholic charity and philanthropy that is positive and uplifting.

Yissachar1

posted on Apr, 10 2010 @ 03:36 PM

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Yeshua Himself called out the church and synagogue..

Mathew 23...

Read it...

Then again in the letters to the churches.. Church ages... In Revelation.. The Laodicean church....

You have been called out by the Most High!!!

Prepare to reap your harvest....

God help us all...

All those who make excuses for this scum will share its fate..

CookieMonster09

posted on Apr, 10 2010 @ 04:17 PM

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All those who make excuses for this scum will share its fate..

Does that include former NYC Mayor Ed Koch?

www.lifesitenews.com...

".........Koch, a Conservative Jew, says he disagrees with the Catholic Church (and Orthodox Judaism) on abortion, homosexuality, divorce, contraception and more, but nevertheless says that the Church has a right to hold to these beliefs and much of the attack on it today stems from opposition to those teachings.

..........“Many of those in the media who are pounding on the Church and the pope today clearly do it with delight, and some with malice,” writes Koch.

........The former U.S. Congressman (1968-77) and three-term Mayor of New York City (1978-89), suggests that, “The primary explanation for the abuse that happened … was the belief that the priests could be cured by psychotherapy, a theory now long discarded by the medical profession.”

...........Despite his ideological disagreements with the Church, Koch says, “I believe the Roman Catholic Church is a force for good in the world, not evil.”

hotpinkurinalmint

posted on Apr, 10 2010 @ 06:05 PM

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reply to post by Nosred

Is it really is the same proportion? Granted pedophiles will always be attracted to positions in the clergy of all religions. However, Protestant ministers, rabbis, etc. are all allowed to get married and have normal sex lives. Catholic clergy cannot. You cannot say celibacy plays no role in engendering or attracting pedophiles to the Catholic clergy.

There is also no evidence of a cover up in the other religions.

FortAnthem

posted on Apr, 10 2010 @ 06:22 PM

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Originally posted by CookieMonster09

Just this morning it was revealed in the Danish press, that our Bishop has TWO letters from the Vatican - one from 1962 and one from 2001 that both declared that child abuse was to be treated with the utmost secrecy and belonged under the heading "Papal Secrets" (my translation from Danish) and as such anybody revealing those secrets would be excumunicated.

What I find so strange about all of these alleged "letters" is that we never get to see the copies of the letter (an English translation would be helpful), and we never see the context in which these letters are written. Papal secrets? Can we see some evidence? All the letters that have been in the media have been small snippets. I have yet to see a media outlet release the full letter alleged to disclose a "cover-up".

I looked up the actual document they are talking about. It has NOTHING TO DO WTH THE CHILD SEX ABUSE SCANDALS.

I'll say that again, just for clarification;

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WTH THE CHILD SEX ABUSE SCANDALS.

It was not with regard to sexual abuse by priests, but specifically with regard to the ecclesiastical crime of solicitation. You can read it here:

Crimen Sollicitationi PDF

It's a document governing the ecclesiastical prosecution in ecclesiastical courts of priests who commit the ecclesiastical crime of solicitation. It stresses that someone who is witness to the ecclesiastical crime of solicitation is obliged to report it to the competent ecclesiastical authority so that this ecclesiastical crime of solication does not remain hidden. The ecclesiastical crime of solicitation relates specifically to the Sacrament of Penance where a priest in connection with the Sacrament seduces the penitent or allows himself to be seduced by the penitent. It's not about the sexual abuse of minors as the ecclesiastical crime of solicitation relates only to the Sacrament of Penance and can involve adults as well as minors. If you look up the word "solicitation" in a regular dictionary, you won't find the definition in there as it is ecclesiastical "jargon"

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This is really weird. Given how reluctant the Church is to impose excommunication on anyone, especially laypeople, for anything but the most serious reason, I find this nearly impossible to believe. Does anyone have any solid information on this?

The ecclesiastical crime of solicitation is very serious as it is an abuse of the Sacrament of Penance. That's why laypeople were obliged to report it. You should keep in mind that at the same time it is important to protect the reputation of a priest who may be innocent.

You should also keep in mind that many if not most or even the vast majority of cases of the ecclesiastical crime of solication wouldn't be a crime under civil law. Let me just give you one such hypothetical, simplified example: Suppose a priest hears the confession of a 30 year old woman. The 30 year old woman during the confession tells the priest: "Father, let's have a one night stand." The priest instead of saying, "No that is wrong" says, "OK let's do it tonight" then by that very fact the priest would be guilty of the ecclesiastical crime of solicitation. As you can see this is grossly misreported in the secular media due to their wilful ignorance and hatred of the Catholic faith and of Jesus Christ.

Read more: Catholic Answers

The document deals with the crime of solicitation IN THE CONFESSIONAL. A crime that generally deals with the priest and an adult woman. Consensual sex between a priest and an adult woman is NOT against the law in most places but, the Church takes this very seriously.

The seal of the confessional is very sacred to the Church and what goes on there is between the priest and the penitent ONLY. A priest is not to reveal info he receives in the confessional to anyone, even if it could save lives. If a priest were to disclose info he gained from the confessional, he would be immediately defrocked and probably excommunicated.

This is the reason for the extreme secrecy in these cases. Discussing what goes on in the confessional is of utmost confidentiality and allegations of misuse of the confessional must be handled most delicately in order to not reveal the information imparted by the penitent.

The MSM got hold of this document and are trying to mislead the public into believing that it was written in response to the pedophilia scandals by quoting the document out of context.

Read the 1st page of the document, it tells you exactly what it is dealing with.

MSM= world class EPIC FAIL with this document.

[edit on 4/10/10 by FortAnthem]

ganjoa

posted on Apr, 10 2010 @ 06:50 PM

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hotpink, I think I lost the question, please clarify -
I thought you were asking catholics specifically if they fully support the church any more. Obviously, there are a huge number of non-catholics responding, myself included. Did I read correctly your original intent?
Thanks.

gj

Alethea

posted on Apr, 10 2010 @ 06:57 PM

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Mother itself may be the antichrist. If so, it is sure to heal from this head wound.

I am sure we will see restitution in the form of feigned "benevolence". Mother's way of saying..."but you NEED me!"

We may come full circle back to Bread and Circuses. Mother often holds out, waiting for a crisis, in order to make herself necessary.

Iago18

posted on Apr, 10 2010 @ 07:06 PM

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I support the Catholic Church, the Papacy, and the authority of the Magisterium. Unequivocally.

"Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." Jn 6:68

CookieMonster09

posted on Apr, 10 2010 @ 07:12 PM

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Is it really is the same proportion? Granted pedophiles will always be attracted to positions in the clergy of all religions. However, Protestant ministers, rabbis, etc. are all allowed to get married and have normal sex lives. Catholic clergy cannot. You cannot say celibacy plays no role in engendering or attracting pedophiles to the Catholic clergy.

".............Fourth, allowing priests to marry will not eliminate this problem. As mentioned earlier, male clergy from other religious traditions also have this problem as well as people who are not clergy at all. Many people who sexually abuse minors are married. Besides, if you could not have sex due to marital discord, the inability to find an appropriate partner, or other reasons, young children would not become the primary object of your desire. Consenting adults would.

Fifth, a high proportion of homosexual priests do not increase the risks of sexual abuse of minors by priests. Sexual orientation does not predict illegal sexual abuse of children and minors in general. Homosexual men are not more likely to engage in illegal sexual behaviors with children and adolescents than heterosexual men. "

From a Perspective on Clergy Sexual Abuse located here:

www.psychwww.com...

hotpinkurinalmint

posted on Apr, 10 2010 @ 07:24 PM

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reply to post by CookieMonster09

You are right in that gay priests do not molest children, pedophiles molest children. People often confuse gays for pedophiles, but there is a difference. The same forces that draw self-hating gays to the Catholic priesthood are the same forces that attracts pedophiles, namely the Catholic priesthood is a place where someone who does not want to get married and have a family can hide without raising eyebrows. Protestants, Jews, Muslims, etc. would find it odd if members of their clergy were single and unattached.

Following your logic, it seems that every married person is a potential pedophile if they ever get into an argument with their spouse. Guys that are in miserable marriages go to adult prostitutes or take adult mistresses. They do not go after kids.

Nosred

posted on Apr, 10 2010 @ 07:30 PM

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reply to post by hotpinkurinalmint

Celibacy doesn't play a role in sexual abuse of children. Pedophile priests are attracted to children because of psychological disorders that existed long before they became celibate. Also most pedophiles don't commit acts of sexual abuse towards children because they are sexually attracted to the child, they come as a result of the pedophile wanting to feel powerful.

CookieMonster09

posted on Apr, 10 2010 @ 07:31 PM

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Following your logic, it seems that every married person is a potential pedophile if they ever get into an argument with their spouse. Guys that are in miserable marriages go to adult prostitutes or take adult mistresses. They do not go after kids.

Actually, according to the report quoted, you are correct. Adults in marital discord would seek a consenting adult, not a child. Read the full article at the link posted.

The article notes, however, that celibacy is not the issue. Religions that do not have a celibate clergy have the same problems with child abuse.

More abuse has taken place at the hands of a married man, then a celibate priest.

Jordan River

posted on Apr, 10 2010 @ 07:34 PM

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Pedophilie doesn't only exist within the catholic realms of christianity. It's also in other sects. It's just not on in the media. Now here's the shocker, Pedophilie even exist OUTSIDE of reliigion. Gasp!!!! I blame the gays

I was a catholic and I changed into anglican. It's 95% the same IMO.

HolgerTheDane

posted on Apr, 11 2010 @ 01:00 PM

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Originally posted by CookieMonster09

By HolgerTheDane
Out of the 75 Danish Catholic priests only 6 have provided the documentation required by law. The reason: Because it isn't in the law to demand the documentation for priests employed before 2005. Or so they claim.

First, the Danish Church is not the entire Church. Most countries - in the case of criminal activity - can subpoena records as enforced by the court.

Are your trying to tell me that Denmark has laws against subpoenaing records as it relates to alleged criminal activity? I highly doubt that. It's possible, but would be extremely rare.

Secondly, where is your evidence? And, please, don't post a link to a known anti-Catholic web site.

Our Danish National TV-station gets a lot of it's stuff from Ritzau which is a news agent on par with Reuters.

What they don't do is run with dubious news from dubious sources.

And what I'm trying to tell you is that we have a law in Denmark that states that ANYONE working with children MUST supply documentation (delivered by the police) that they haven't in any way been involved in child abuse.
Why the church chooses not to demand said documentation is anyonesd guess, but my guess is better than yours I think.

The mere fact that they don't get the documentation for priests employed before 2005 is just another way of protecting their secrets. Another way to protect the criminal actions of the very persons who guide their flock of sheep.

No, there is such a thing as a statute of limitations in most countries. You can't go on a witch hunt to defame the Church and try to subpoena Church records past the statute of limitations. It's called the rule of law.

No statute of limitatuion on that law. EVERYONE working with children MUST provide the documentation when asked. And those employing people working with children IS BY LAW REQUIRED TO ASK for this documentation.

The church chooses not to ask. THAT is what I'm telling you. If that is defamation then so be it. I couldn't care less. Facts are facts.

The very same persons (popes and cardinals) who stick out guidelines on how to be a proper catholic are the ones responsible for protecting criminals within their ranks.

That's painting a very broad brush.
***snip***

No it isn't. The present pope and the one before as well as cardinals knew and kept it a secret. It might be within the law in Minnesota to keep things like this secret, but in Denmark the church is NOT above the law.

Your 4% should have been 0% After all we are talking about a religion who "are holier than thou".

I assume, therefore, you would say the same thing about any Protestant church, synagogue, day care facility, nursery school, kindergarten, etc.

Why single out the Catholic Church?

The 4% number is the same as what you will find in ANY clergy of ANY religious denomination.

Any church should have a 0% and when it goes above 0 then they should take measures to get back to 0.
Religious leaders must not preach one thing and do anything less themselves.
The Catholic Church with its priest, cardinals and pope is singled out in this thread - those are the ones we discuss at the moment.

Spanish Inquisition. Which Hunts. The killing of scientists on grounds of herecy. In newer times we have Mother Theresa. Lovely lady. Did you ever read the information on HOW the poor little orphans were treated in those orphanages.

The best you can do is come up with historical examples from centuries ago. First, the Spanish Inquisition was conducted by the Spanish Monarchy in 1478, not the Roman Catholic Church. It was a political body directly under the control of the Spanish Monarchy. Get your facts straight.

Witch hunts? From the 1400's? Is that the best you can do? You seem to gloss over the fact that both Jews, and Protestants were involved in witch hunts as well.

Mother Theresa. Here we go. A nun who dedicated her entire career to helping the poorest of the poor in Calcutta under the most impoverished conditions. And she won the Nobel Peace Prize. Critics allege (never proven in a court of law) that some of her patients were neglected. When no one else would care for these children, she did.

For every negative example you can give that defames the Church, I can show you thousands of examples of Catholic charity and philanthropy that is positive and uplifting.

Did you forget about the Magdalen Laudries?

What I did was to point out that the catholic church always have been a church with two faces.

I have never doubted Mother Theresas intentions, but the Nobel price doesn't alter facts.

I don't doubt that there are many good catholic charities etc. BUT that does not alter the fact that it is a criminal offense to protect child abusers.
Child abusers and especially when they are people in authority - like priests - have transgressed way beyond the line I and many others are ready to forgive. And I will not forgive those among the top dogs in the catholic church that they believe that they have the right to protect those abusers simply because it would damage the church and they would lose face.

Forgiving is devine - well - I'm a mere human.

If you want to help protect those who are abusers - so be it.

But please don't pretend that the cases are 20 or more years old and therefore without importance.

The abused children are now abused adults and many of them still suffer.

And then you forget about the recent cases, but hey...
That's convenient.

CookieMonster09

posted on Apr, 11 2010 @ 01:46 PM
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Our Danish National TV-station gets a lot of it's stuff from Ritzau which is a news agent on par with Reuters.

Now there's a reputable source. I wonder who owns Reuters. Hmmm...

Why the church chooses not to demand said documentation is anyonesd guess, but my guess is better than yours I think.

The Catholic Church requires criminal background checks of anyone that would be working with children. Reference checks are required. Priests now undergo training in impulse control and keeping professional boundaries. Priests are now in their late 20's and 30's by the time they reach the seminary - and not straight out of high school as in decades past. They go through psychological tests and risk assessment tests. This is all new - and all implemented by the Church to stop this abuse.

To suggest that the Church is not complying with Danish law is ridiculous. Especially when you can't show any proof except a bogus news source.

The church chooses not to ask. THAT is what I'm telling you.

Read above. The Church is already taking preventative steps as noted above. If Danish legal authorities have their own measures, they are perfectly welcome to take the Church to court in Denmark.

Denmark, as I said earlier, is not the Church. The Church is worldwide, encompassing hundreds of nations.

No it isn't. The present pope and the one before as well as cardinals knew and kept it a secret.

Proof? Evidence, please? I already discussed the Minnesota case, which was the case that was most recently in the press. The Pope only learned of the case 20 years later, after the local bishops decided to try to appease the local deaf community as the accused priest lay on his death bed. Local police never ever prosecuted. Some secret!

These media rages are orchestrated attacks by enemies of the Church. Duh.

Any church should have a 0% and when it goes above 0 then they should take measures to get back to 0. Religious leaders must not preach one thing and do anything less themselves. The Catholic Church with its priest, cardinals and pope is singled out in this thread - those are the ones we discuss at the moment.

And why is the Catholic Church being singled out? Why don't you answer that question? I can tell you why. The liberals in the press hate the Church's stance on abortion, homosexuality, women priests, contraception, etc. That's the whole reason for these attacks. And the best the press can do is dig up child abuse cases from 40 years ago.

Did you read what former NYC Mayor Ed Koch had to say? I posted it earlier. You should read the link:

www.lifesitenews.com...

If you want to help protect those who are abusers - so be it.

No. I want fairness, facts, and objectivity. I never defended anyone that abuses children. The truth is that most of these allegations are false, and the media is in mad hysteria attacking the Pope. Anti-Catholic hatred is growing, and it must stop. The one-sided blindness of these attacks is so blatantly evil it disgusts me.

But please don't pretend that the cases are 20 or more years old and therefore without importance.

Facts are facts. Most of these cases are from 30-40 years ago. Read the link I provided which exposes the myths and hysteria:

www.psychwww.com...

".................Almost all the cases coming to light today are cases from 30 and 40 years ago. We did not know much about pedophilia and sexual abuse in general back then. In fact, the vast majority of the research on sexual abuse of minors didn't emerge until the early 1980's. So, it appeared reasonable at the time to treat these men and then return them to their priestly duties. In hindsight, this was a tragic mistake. It has been estimated that 40 years ago about 23% of male psychotherapists have been sexually involved with their clients. Of course this is no longer true today. Forty years ago we thought that autism was caused by cold and withholding mothers referred to as the "ice box mother." We can't take what we know in 2010 and apply it to problems and decisions made in the 1960's and 1970's.

Furthermore, 30 years ago, most priests entered seminary during high school, did not participate in a comprehensive psychological evaluation prior to admission, and had no training in sexuality, maintaining professional boundaries, and impulse control. Advice regarding dealing with sexual impulses included cold showers and prayer. Today, most applicants to the priesthood are much older (generally in their late 20's or 30's). They often have had satisfying and appropriate intimate relationships before entering the seminary. They have completed a psychological evaluation that specifically examines risk factors for sexual problems. They now get good training in sexuality and issues related to managing sexual impulses. It is not surprising that the majority of the sex-offending priests that we hear about in the press are older. In fact, our research indicates that the average age of these men are 53.............."