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Do any Catholics fully support the Church?

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posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 03:23 PM
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I know many Catholics are extremely upset by what the Church is doing (or not doing) regarding abused children. Many Catholics may have left the church. Others may continue to stick with the Church, despite their disgust, because for one reason or another the pros outweigh the cons. I am not interested in what these Catholics have to say.

I am interested in Catholics who more or less are sticking with the church and support it. I would like to know what you are thinking. Do you think the media is being unfair? Do you think the media is blowing things out of proportion? Do you think the media has ulterior motives?




posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 03:45 PM
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an ex catholic told me that when the jews and romans killed jesus, they took his message and modified it to suit their own agenda. they mixed it with other pagan religions and spread it...

but if i was a catholic until this day then i'd say that the devil is trying to make the church look bad and we were foretold that this will happen... i will make myself believe that...



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 03:46 PM
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Coming from a Catholic family, I can tell you what that leftover feels about the whole situation.

Back in the day, I never really paid attention to the pope or the european sect, or what the catholics were doing even across the state. I cared only on what was going on in my particular church I visited..how the few priests and occasional visit by a red would be about...from the elderly irish priest whom loved soccer, to the younger chap whom hid his smoking habit we all knew he had, etc. If I was catholic today, I would not fault my local church with what is going on at the top of the company, considering my particular church had little to nothing to do with it.

If however my church was part of the scandal, then I imagine I would have had issues with the church far before that time.

Some foreign priest molesting some alterboy does not change the scripture in the same way some milita loon fringe idiot shouldn't change a person's opinion about...say...the constitution.


btw, I was later saved and reborn agnostic.



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 03:58 PM
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reply to post by SaturnFX
 


I can see a lot of Catholics sticking with the Church because they still have faith in their local churches and at least perceive their local churches as being innocent. These Catholics, however, are not necessarily supporting the Pope or the Church as a whole.



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 04:05 PM
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A good comparison for many to understand is the catholic church and the American government.
It is not the churchs relegious beliefs or Americas belief in democracy that is the problem . To believe and support the church or America is to believe, support and trust in God and a government that is by,for and of the people.
The problem is with the weak, spineless cowards, who lack any moral or ethical values that control the church and Americas government.



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 05:56 PM
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First of all, you have to understand that the Church is not comprised only of the priests, nuns or those up high in the hierarchy. The Church is formed by each and every catholic that considers himself as part of it. To some extent, even catholics who have decided to fall apart from the doctrine or no longer practice, are also part of the Church. We are all the Church.

Hence, if some individual members of this extended family have done terrible things, and even worse, those who were supposed to stop them turned a blind eye, then the shame falls specifically on them, but not on the Church itself. That is to say, you can stop believing in some of the members of that "family", and even rightly demand for them to be held accountable, but the Church in itself (i.e. each and every one of us) remains unscathed. We still believe in Jesus Christ and we still believe in each other as part of the community.

This is what many catholics right now do not understand and the reason they are leaving the Church. It is not the Church who committed pedophilia. It was not the Church who did nothing. The culprits of this are individual priests and hierarchs.

So to speak, the Church is something bigger

I hope I made myself clear.

Bless you, brother.



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 06:51 PM
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Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
I know many Catholics are extremely upset by what the Church is doing (or not doing) regarding abused children. Many Catholics may have left the church. Others may continue to stick with the Church, despite their disgust, because for one reason or another the pros outweigh the cons. I am not interested in what these Catholics have to say.

I am interested in Catholics who more or less are sticking with the church and support it.


If I didn't know better, I would think you were calling me out with this thread.



My explanation of why I still support the Church and will always do so, no matter how horrible the scandals she is involved in can best be explained by discussing the human and divine elements in the Church.


The Church's divine nature nature makes her the sole dispenser of grace in this world through the sacraments. Only through the Church can I receive absolution fo my sins through confession, final forgiveness and peace in dying through extreme unction and ultimately, only through the Church can I find my ultimate salvation.

For this reason, I will always be a loyal Catholic, believing what the Church has taught throughout the ages.

Now, the Human Element of the Church is a different matter.

The Pope, bishops, priests, religious and lay people of the Church all make up the Human Element of the Church. We all strive for holiness through the Church and we all, at times, fail miserably. We are all fallible human beings with an inclination toward concupiscince which causes us to want things we should not. We are weak human beings prone to errors in judgement. Often, through moral weakness or outright malice we tend to do wrong, just like everyone else in the world.

When the Human Element of the Church does wrong, I become angered and disappointed at the individual doing wrong but, I never lose my faith in the Church as a holy institution.

The following article explains this idea further:


Human and divine elements in the Church

Just as in Christ there are two natures, both a human and a divine one, so by analogy we can refer to the presence in the Church of human and divine elements. No one can fail to see the human part. The Church, in this world, is for men, who are its raw material. And when we speak of men we speak of freedom, which permits the co-existence of grandeur and meanness, of heroism and failure.

If we were to focus only on the human side of the Church, we would never understand her. We would still be distant from the threshold of her central mystery. Sacred Scripture uses many terms derived from everyday life to describe God's kingdom and its presence among us in the Church. It compares her to a sheepfold, to a flock, to a house, to a seed, to a vine, to a field in which God plants or builds. But one expression stands out and sums up all the rest: the Church is Christ's body.

I would also like you to consider that even if human failings were to outnumber acts of valour, the clear undeniable mystical reality of the Church, though unperceived by the senses, would still remain. The Church would still be the Body of Christ, Our Lord himself, the action of the Holy Spirit and the loving presence of the Father.

The Church is, therefore, inseparably human and divine. It is a divine society in origin, and supernatural in its aim and in the means that are directly ordered to this end. But in so far as it is made up of men, it is a human community. It lives and acts in the world, but its goal and strength are not here but in heaven.

Read more: Source




I would like to know what you are thinking. Do you think the media is being unfair? Do you think the media is blowing things out of proportion? Do you think the media has ulterior motives?


Yes, I do think the media is being unfair by blowing up this scandal way out of proportion. They have greatly exaggerated the problems and fail to see that Pope Benedict XVI has been doing everything in his power to fight the sex abuse problem within the Church since he came in to office.

The following are some of my threads chronicling what the Church is doing in the face of these scandals and showing the true scope of the problem:

Prelate: Church Has No Hiding Place for Pedophiles

The Myth of Pedophile Priests

Catholic Church Sex Scandal & Celibacy

The Church's Strict Patrol Against Pedophilia

Pedephile Bishop Weakland Commissioned Bronze Relief of Himself for Cathederal

Catholic sexual abuse not a result of homosexuality? I say B.S.

JP II prevented then-Cardinal Ratzinger from prosecuting molesting priests

Deaf Boys Tried to Tell of Priest’s Abuse - No One Listened


And finally, evidence that the US may be covering up a massive sex abuse scandal in our own public schools which may dwarf all of the problems of the Catholic Church:

Conspiracy of Silence: US Public Schools sex abuse goes unreported and unpunished





[edit on 4/9/10 by FortAnthem]



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 06:51 PM
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So to speak, the Church is something bigger

I hope I made myself clear.

Bless you, brother.




I totally agee with this sentiment. I still consider myself to be a faithful and supportive member of the Catholic Church, and here's why.

Now please understand that I fully realize that members of the Catholic Church have been involved in corrupt activities both now and in the past. I think that is would be foolish to believe that every member of the Chruch is a great person. We have sure had our share of evil people but the Church itself has endured through 2000 years.

I can look back in history at the abuses during the middle ages, the Crusades, etc and wonder how we ever made it through. Even as bad as the current crisis is, the Catholic Church will carry on as a religious institution that has done far more good than harm in the world.

I think that crimes of abuse against the young are among the worst of all and I hope those responsible face the consequences. I have faith that this will happen. In the mean time, I plan to support the Church's mission however I can.

aidan



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 06:53 PM
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As a catholic, I certainly don't support the actions of the church covering up their wrongdoings. But there was loads of institutionalised kiddy-fiddling going on in the Seventies and Eighties that had nothing to do with the catholic church. And plenty of cover-ups.

Question: so why suddenly - in the UK - focus on Romish/Papist kiddly-fiddling from previous decades and make such a huge song-and-dance about some ridiculous letter the Pope wrote?

Answer: because there's a potentially huge paedophile scandal in the UK's backyard (Scotland) about Masonic kiddy-fiddling that could bust the May 6th election wide open if it gets out. And TPTB/MSM don't want you to know about it.

Hint: Google Hollie Greig........ This is the paedophile issue the UK MSM desperately wants you to look away from.

Well, look away at your peril.



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 07:25 PM
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reply to post by FortAnthem
 


Thank you for your participation. I was not calling you out!

I do not mean to belittle your beliefs, but they do not make much sense to me as a non-catholic.

To me, the "divine" element of the church would be corrupted if the human element did terrible things. How can an institution offer any sort of divine salvation if it is headed by a man who deliberately turned a blind eye towards men who were abusing children? Is there a better institution or church out there one can look for for divine forgiveness that is not tainted by pedophilia?



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 07:49 PM
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First of all, let me commend the OP for the thoughtful way in which this topic was framed. Secondly, those who have commented on the OP have maintained the same high intellectual standard.

Bravo.

I, too, am Catholic, though I struggle mightily these days with that identity. The child abuse scandal is but one bone of contention I have with the Church. I am also appalled that the American Church has so willingly aligned itself with a political party whose political ideology, in my humble opinion, is diametrically opposed to the teachings of Jesus.

The Church has allowed itself to be hijacked by the so-called "Pro Life," movement and, in doing so, turned its back on the social justice that was so prevalent in Jesus' teachings.

Now, I clearly understand that the Church must oppose Abortion but that one issue cannot become the only issue that concerns the church. When the Clergy stands in front of the parish and suggests that a vote against a Republican is a vote against the word of God, it is both disingenuous and hypocritical. That very same vote would cause the poor and marginalized to lose critical assistance.

Despite all of this, I hang on because I have seen the good the Church has done in my local community. I see how the Church has drawn people back and re-infused them with a passion for God's word and a faith that will become vital to them some day.

I have seen this first hand, as I have seen the terrible scars left on those who were abused by clergy. There is no easy answer. I trust God will lead me where I must go. Perhaps it will ultimately be away from the Church. Perhaps not.

One thing I will never let happen is for a Church's wrongdoings to lead me away from a God who's Grace has saved me.



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 08:17 PM
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Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
reply to post by FortAnthem
 


Thank you for your participation. I was not calling you out!


Yeah, I know. It's just that some times, judging by the reception some of my threads receive, I feel like I'm the only Catholic who posts on ATS.

I'm actually pleasantly surprised to see all the other faithful Catholics posting on this thread. I didn't know there were so many here.



I do not mean to belittle your beliefs, but they do not make much sense to me as a non-catholic.

To me, the "divine" element of the church would be corrupted if the human element did terrible things. How can an institution offer any sort of divine salvation if it is headed by a man who deliberately turned a blind eye towards men who were abusing children? Is there a better institution or church out there one can look for for divine forgiveness that is not tainted by pedophilia?


I understand what you're talking about. Many times, I too, am disgusted by the actions of those who are members of the Church, especially when the hierarchy is involved.

The thing you have to remember is that the Human Element of the Church has, does and will always do terrible things, sometimes even in the name of the Church. This does not mean that the Church has become corrupted, it just means that it's members are human and humans sometimes too often do bad and horrible things. It's in our nature to fall but, through the grace of the Church, we can rise up again.

You have to remember that the Church is greater than us all. It is not just the faithful here on Earth, it includes all the angels and saints in heaven and it's TRUE head is God in heaven.

No amount of human corruption can stain the Church as a divine institution.



[edit on 4/9/10 by FortAnthem]



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 09:55 PM
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I fully support the Church.

First, I would strongly encourage any defamers of the Church to read the following article that exposes some of the myths and hysteria regarding the child abuse scandals:

www.psychwww.com...

Here is why I support the Church:

First, most of these accusations are just that - accusations. One accused is innocent until proven guilty.

Secondly, the Catholic Church has taken the necessary steps to avoid this evil of child abuse in recent years. Psychological testing, criminal background checks, etc. are standard fare, and psychologists are much better able to assess the risk factors for a potential abuser before they enter the priesthood. Priests are now given appropriate training in maintaining professional boundaries and managing impulse control.

Most of these cases are from 20-40 years ago, when child abusers were falsely believed to be able to be treated and rehabilitated. Medical science knows now - decades later - that this is not the case.

Thirdly, the Catholic Church is being inappropriately singled out for this abuse scandal. By best estimates, only 4% of priests have ever abused children, and this, compared to 8% in the general adult population. The 4% figure is comparable to other clergy in other religious institutions.

Finally, the Church is engaged in a great deal of spiritual, charitable, and philanthropic works that benefit mankind. No other institution on Earth does more to help the poor, the oppressed, the downtrodden, the sick, the suffering, etc. than the Catholic Church. Anyone that investigates the Church's work in these areas would know this to be true. The Church is one of the very few institutions that publicly stood against the Iraq War, and stands up for the rights of the unborn. These scandals in the press are deliberately meant to demonize the Pope, and defame the Catholic Church in general.



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 10:06 PM
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reply to post by hotpinkurinalmint
 


The media is being a little biased. There are just as many pastors, ministers, rabbis, etc. that abuse children as there are priests. Of course MSM usually tends to ignore any pedophiles who aren't Catholic.



posted on Apr, 10 2010 @ 03:50 AM
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Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
***snip***
Do you think the media is being unfair? Do you think the media is blowing things out of proportion? Do you think the media has ulterior motives?


I'm not a catholic, but I'll say this:

Just this morning it was revealed in the Danish press, that our Bishop has TWO letters from the Vatican - one from 1962 and one from 2001 that both declared that child abuse was to be treated with the utmost secrecy and belonged under the heading "Papal Secrets" (my translation from Danish) and as such anybody revealing those secrets would be excumunicated.

Our present pope was responsible for sending out the letter in 2001 when he was a cardinal and in charge of the office for cases of abuse.

So in light of this

I think the press hasn't been dilligent enough and I think that the fact that we are talking about the catholic church in great parts are the reason for this kid glove approach.

Think if it had been a governmental coverup? The government would surely have fallen had it been in a democracy (even a republic).



[edit on 10.4.2010 by HolgerTheDane]



posted on Apr, 10 2010 @ 03:56 AM
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I can tell you this.

The Catholic church is a corrupt and horrible edifice - I think it might be the Whore of Babylon referred to in the bible.

I think all churches are corrupt, but especially this church.l



posted on Apr, 10 2010 @ 04:01 AM
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Originally posted by CookieMonster09
***snip***

Here is why I support the Church:

First, most of these accusations are just that - accusations. One accused is innocent until proven guilty.

Secondly, the Catholic Church has taken the necessary steps to avoid this evil of child abuse in recent years. Psychological testing, criminal background checks, etc. are standard fare
***snip***


Bollocks.

Out of the 75 Danish Catholic priests only 6 have provided the documentation required by law.
The reason: Because it isn't in the law to demand the documentation for priests employed before 2005. Or so they claim.

8 out of 45 Catholic congregations in Denmark have not asked for the documentation required by law.
The reason: Because...

And there is absolutely no reason to think that the Danish Catholic Church deals with this issue any differently than in other countries.

The mere fact that they don't get the documentation for priests employed before 2005 is just another way of protecting their secrets. Another way to protect the criminal actions of the very persons who guide their flock of sheep.



posted on Apr, 10 2010 @ 04:08 AM
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Originally posted by CookieMonster09
I fully support the Church.

***snip***
Thirdly, the Catholic Church is being inappropriately singled out for this abuse scandal. By best estimates, only 4% of priests have ever abused children, and this, compared to 8% in the general adult population. The 4% figure is comparable to other clergy in other religious institutions.
***snip***


It might be the Catholic Church who are in the line of fire at the moment, but it doesn't detract from one very crucial fact:

The very same persons (popes and cardinals) who stick out guidelines on how to be a proper catholic are the ones responsible for protecting criminals within their ranks.

It is not only the poor abusive priests who are criminals. It is also those who help protect them. Who have paid off parents of abused children. Who have intimidated parents and children into keeping silent.

EDIT: I forgot to say this:
Your 4% should have been 0%
After all we are talking about a religion who "are holier than thou".

Let he who... cast the first stone.

I'll be happy to start throwing right now.

[edit on 10.4.2010 by HolgerTheDane]



posted on Apr, 10 2010 @ 04:17 AM
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Originally posted by CookieMonster09
I fully support the Church.

***snip***
Finally, the Church is engaged in a great deal of spiritual, charitable, and philanthropic works that benefit mankind. No other institution on Earth does more to help the poor, the oppressed, the downtrodden, the sick, the suffering, etc. than the Catholic Church. Anyone that investigates the Church's work in these areas would know this to be true. The Church is one of the very few institutions that publicly stood against the Iraq War, and stands up for the rights of the unborn. These scandals in the press are deliberately meant to demonize the Pope, and defame the Catholic Church in general.


I'd like to direct you onto a few facts about the helpfulness of the Catholic Church.

Spanish Inquisition.
Which Hunts.
The killing of scientists on grounds of herecy.

In newer times we have Mother Theresa. Lovely lady. Did you ever read the information on HOW the poor little orphans were treated in those orphanages.

Have you heard of the Magdalen Laundries?

Have you ever tried to be critical about your church?


[edit on 10.4.2010 by HolgerTheDane]



posted on Apr, 10 2010 @ 04:17 AM
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Hmm well my EX Husband is Catholic and I was married in a Catholic Church. My ONLY Son was christened in a Catholic Church.

The Priest who married us was a SLEEZE bag who was drooling at me!! and when he said I was to cal him Father, I replied I have a Father and your not it!

All the pompus BS is just that BS. My EX Husband was an alter boy in a boarding Catholic School and I can sure as hell asure you that my ONLY Son will never be raised in a Catholic School.

My Husband would have to kill me before I ever allowed that.

The Catholic Church is a haven for sick paedophiles...






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