The Good Church

Although the history of the Church has been plagued with atrocities the history of the Church is fruited with blessing upon many as well.

It must be admitted that lawlessness thwarts those who are encumbered by weakness or the drive toward humility (which is not weakness) while the tutor of the law drives those who tend toward lawlessness toward altruism.

At the very least the Church has allowed the spread of the ideas surrounding the law left to us by Christ, recognized as important by all honest men and women, and that is the Law of Love.

Love your neighbor (person next to you) as you love (feed, clothe, etc) yourself.

This form of law is truly a virtuous anarchy which was employed by Christ as well as by St. Paul.

The practice of this form of anarchy gives both equality and liberation to all as one would treat his neighbor, in essence, the way he treats his own body, psyche and his own private needs.

As each treasures their own ideas they in turn treasure his neighbors ideas.

We then have a virtuous cycle in the New Man who undertakes this form of anarchy.

This is indeed and in thought is the Church.

With that in mind let us look at not only the tares but the good crop in the Churches historical record.

Simple search will bring forth some very good things.

Jesuit missionaries were active among indigenous peoples in New France in North America. Many of them compiled dictionaries or glossaries of the First Nations and Native American languages which they learned. For instance, Jacques Gravier, vicar general of the Illinois mission in the Mississippi River valley, compiled the most extensive Kaskaskia Illinois-French dictionary among works of the missionaries before his death in 1708.[14]

We often thing of the Church destroying societys but with very little effort we can see that many missionaries rercorded and preserved the languages of the people they encountered.

This is the opposite of what the Church has been accussed of so often.

esuit scholars working in foreign missions were very important in studying their unknown languages and strived to produce Latinized grammars and dictionaries. This was done, for instance, for Japanese (see Nippo jisho also known as Vocabvlario da Lingoa de Iapam, (Vocabulary of the Japanese Language) a Japanese-Portuguese dictionary written 1603), Vietnamese (French Jesuit missionary Alexandre de Rhodes formalized the Vietnamese alphabet in use today with his 1651 Vietnamese-Portuguese-Latin dictionary Dictionarium Annamiticum Lusitanum et Latinum) and Tupi-Guarani (a language group of South American aborigines). Jean François Pons in the 1740s pioneered the study of Sanskrit in the West.

This was found in wiki.

The point is the Church is under fire.

I for one first heard of the idea of treating my neighbor as I treat myself from my First Grade teacher who was a Catholic Nun.

Although this idea may not be practiced by all the idea was spread via the Church.

I have never been taken advantage of my anybody in the Church nor has anybody tried.

I do have a friend from Toronto who is a victim. I am not denying it.

Yet the fact that the idea of faith, hope and love is still being spread by faithful members of the Church needs to be put forth while others attempt to seperate the tares from the Wheat.

What say you ATS members?

Is the Church the greatest evil...or can you admit that good has been carried out as well?

reply to post by whiteraven

At the very least the Church has allowed the spread of the ideas surrounding the law left to us by Christ, recognized as important by all honest men and women, and that is the Law of Love.

Are you drawing a correlation between the laws left to us by the supposed christ and Honest men & women..?


If so, your OP sucks...if not, please explain that one.

Is the Church the greatest evil...or can you admit that good has been carried out as well?

Of course they have...but a fair comparison would be the aid the U.S. hand delivers to other countries, but so what - everyone seems to focus on the negative.


So, to keep it real - ya' the church has done some good, but I don't think it outweighs the bad.

reply to post by whiteraven


Great post, S&F!

It should also be pointed out that without the Church, science as we know it would not exist today;

Thomas E. Woods, Jr. asserts that, despite the widely held conception of the Catholic Church as being anti-science, this conventional wisdom has been the subject of "drastic revision" by historians of science over the last 50 years. Woods asserts that the mainstream view now is that the "Church [has] played a positive role in the development of science ... even if this new consensus has not yet managed to trickle down to the general public".[1]

Most research took place in Catholic universities that were staffed by members of religious orders who had the education and means to conduct scientific investigation.[2] Catholic universities, scholars and many priests including Nicolaus Copernicus, Roger Bacon, Albertus Magnus, Robert Grosseteste, Nicholas Steno, Francesco Grimaldi, Giambattista Riccioli, Roger Boscovich, Athanasius Kircher, Gregor Mendel, Georges Lemaître and others, were responsible for many important scientific discoveries.

Since the late 16th century the Jesuits have produced the large majority of priest-scientists, who contributed to worldwide cultural exchange by spreading their developments in knowledge to Asia, Africa, and the Americas.[

Wickipedia

Prior to Christianity, the gods were seen as capricious and could change the nature of reality at a whim.

Christianity brought about the idea of a God who created an orderly universe based upon laws. This enabled us to discover the physical laws that rule the universe.

reply to post by happygolucky


In the end it does not matter who gave the Law of Love.

As the virtuous cycle will continue to grow and overtake the Whole Loaf.

reply to post by FortAnthem


And I for one was ignorant of many of these scientific names being linked to the Church.


A person must recognize that the clerical work done by the Church as well as it encompasses not only our historical record but our family tree records.

Who else has done that?

The Church truly holds the records of Western thought and civilization and for that reason alone it must be protected.

Think of the knowledge lost in Alexandria and other locals when brought under the thumb of those who do not treasure knowledge.

the church burned women to get their holdings.

the church helped nazis to escape to south america.

the pope likes to take away peoples' condoms in his spare time.

they have been supporting murderers and cruel rulers.

they are lying and spreading nonsense.

I bet someone can find some more good stuff about the church....

I've read quite a few things about the Church and the natives, the ethic of the occasionally good hearted member/priest does not excuse a deliberate fraud being perpetrated on humanity by the Controllers who incidentally code it to be sungod mythology.


www.youtube.com...


Parallels Between Jesus and Horus - Egyptian Sun God

www.scribd.com...
Code To The Matrix Final Copy

andrew.rutajit.com...

Sure, there's good people involved in the church (any church), just as there are within every organization out there.

Same as there are depraved people involved in both.

How do we know this? Cause there's good people, and depraved people, throughout the world.

The question shouldn't be "has the church done good".. it SHOULD be "does the good it has done in its history outweigh the evil?"


That's what's never looked at.

The conundrum is how to participate in the discussion without participating in the argument for me. It was a bit down the thread before it occurred to me that the debate revolves around some concept of relative worth, good or evil, theistic construct that has become associated somehow with an organizational entity, pillar of society - a tradition "of faith"? Do our institutions serve us as human beings or constrain our spirits? Do our values serve us as humans? That's my view of the Church crisis - that as a people we are realizing the dichotomy between being served and being ruled. Naturally the resulting confusion causes chaos or temproary insanity of sorts because we don't know how to process the information.

gj

G man your post struck me as very provoking.

Good thinking.

We are on our way, evolving toward a new man or a new consciousness as a whole.

When 51 percent of humans recognize some of the new ideas we will shed the law, the slave mentality for a new outlook without the need for a ruler....hence the anarchy of agape.

One could look at various religions to see the need for Agape.

Paul described the state as patient, kind, gentle, does not brag, is not arrogant, does not seeks its own...bears all things, hopes all thing, endures all things.

These are the fruits or characteristics of one in the 5th circuit.

To give birth to these new ideas one must be twice born.

I am not one to teach as I barely grasp some of these ideas.

Others teach these ideas and they are as dispersed in thought as Carl Sagan, Jung, S. Paul, Buddha...Christ and even Crowley.

Crowley seemed to touch this bliss through breathing exercises as practiced by certain yoga masters.


The path that leads to this is a path within-ourselves according to many.


[edit on 9-4-2010 by whiteraven]

There seems to be confusion between The Church and the church, which admittedly sounds a bit confusing in and of itself. The Church, which is to say is Christ and all parts that are and do through him in the service of God, has committed no evil. Not one. The church, however, those organizations by man and on rare occasions in history used as devices to go against The Church, indeed has committed sins. It is important then, for the church to always try their best to align itself with The Church else confusion will continue to persist as one that commits the sins of mankind. From a person who has seen a church church as well as a Church church, the difference is quite clear. How can one tell the difference? Simple. A Church church follows the Bible. A church church does not.

Here are two indicators of a Church church:

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." - Mark 12:30-31

"But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven." - Matthew 5:44

A church church will rationalize/wave-off/ignore these or other vital messages Christ gave to us as a Church. Sometimes within a church there are fragments of Church and church, of which it is up to the attendees and membership to uphold the Church.

[edit on 9-4-2010 by saint4God]

reply to post by happygolucky

Are you drawing a correlation between the laws left to us by the supposed christ and Honest men & women..?


If so, your OP sucks...if not, please explain that one.

The only law left was the law to love one another.

No I am not saying that you are not honest if you do not accept the Church. Not at all.

I apologize for the misunderstanding.

All I am trying to get at is we concentrate so much on the bad.....for example Tiger Woods gave a lot of money to Haiti yet I bet the MSM never prints that.

Not front page stuff.

Good...a lot of good...simple things such as food, shelter and clothes are provided via many.


I have read many books on the atrocities of the Church including the Pope of WW two being somewhat compliant with NAZI's.

Baptists, Atheists, Buddhists, Muslims, Christians have all done unspeakable things but all have done good as well.

We need to move past these labels and move toward a more human outlook.

But again I am just learning...

I think People influenced by the "love one another" concept have done some very good things. Very honorable things.

On the other hand, the Church--the institution, the papacy, has done more harm than good. Irreparable damage-=-corruption, hypocracy, intimidation, murder, the list goes on and on....

reply to post by Chamberf=6


Lenny Bruce is one of my heros and he was destroyed by the church....love your quote...

“Every day people are straying away from the church and going back to God.”
---both Lenny Bruce

lol


Anyhow I wrestle with these ideas as I am acutely aware of the evil done in the name of God.

We kill the prophets and then after they are dead we idolize them.

Fatima suggests that we may be at the time of the destruction of much of the Church which may be a good thing in the sense that once the gold and silver are gone we may have the very thing that empowered Peter back.

lol

The Buddha said all things are temporal.

Jesus said that heaven and earth will pass away.

lol

Nevertheless Agape does not pass away.

Originally posted by Chamberf=6
On the other hand, the Church--the institution, the papacy, has done more harm than good. Irreparable damage-=-corruption, hypocracy, intimidation, murder, the list goes on and on....

A very judgemental assertion, care to provide percentage and the statistics to support it?

reply to post by saint4God


I cannot share much beyond my own experiences with the Church.


As a young boy I attended Val Marie school and so of course I was introduced to the Church via Sister Marie the first grade teacher.

She was very strict...but to this day i recall her kindness as well.

After that my experiences centered around peeking into a Church window on Sundays as my father was in and out of jail and my mother had my younger siblings.

So I am unchurched.

Later in life i converted to Charismatic type of Christian and any meetings I had had with Nuns (I do not believe I have ever met a Priest besides the one in Val Marie) was always very very good.

Often they were involved in clothing and feeding the poor so it was always a fun environment.

I have attended a Seminary and a few Bible schools. Seminary was "Methodist" and Bible Colleges were Charismatic.


I never did become anything along the line of a preacher although I thought about it. NOT! lol

The problem I had with it was I always viewed it in terms of show business as that was how I made coin from time to time. ( guitar player/bass player) So any time I got on a podium it really felt sort of phoney to me. lol



The latest experience was very positive as well...I attended a retreat at a Benedict Monastery.

I spent 10 days eating their home grown food, their own honey, milk meat etc.....and discussing ideas.

The Monks were simply wonderful and I saw no real political play taking place. it was extremely rewarding and refreshing to live the communal life for 10 days and I promised to return.

So you see...my experience has always been positive.

Now i have had a Baptist teacher...a Baptist 8th grade teacher who gave me the strap (shows my age) many many many times.

Most of the time I deserved it and I believe I am better for it as I was somewhat a class disruptor.
lol

Nevertheless I have had some bad experiences on the Charismatic side of the Church. lol But for the most part I have found that most believers try to do good although they are all brainwashed sheep...or most are. lol

Now the scariest things I have ever come across were things like "the Children of God" as they were somewhat strange and evil. I could tell just going to their "pad" back in the 1970's. lol

I got the hell out of their.

Also i have encountered a few other kooks...some very very interesting and some just plain crazy.

PS...edit in ref.to brain washed sheep......I include myself in that except I see a little more then I used to...I know I am taught to behave in and within certain norms....lol...the only difference is I asked way too many questions when at various bible studies, seminaries and did not believe everything that was told me....lol
























[edit on 10-4-2010 by whiteraven]