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How and why Gov't is going to come for your 401k's

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posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 02:05 PM
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the gov't is running toward a date when they can no longer service there debts.....when they can no longer kick the can down the road....and they don't like it.


so what they will try.....sure as the sun rises in the morning.......(well not that sure) but worth WATCHING for as they have more and more difficulty funding their deficits and debt with low interest rates is a plan that will be framed to come after citizens retirement accounts.

moneymorning.com... (read this article about the how and why's and what it may be "marketed as"

They are salivating looking a the trillions sitting in these coffers.....they are armed with a complacent lap dog media that has shown they can decieve and "market" or "frame" issues from what ever perspective that suits them (gov't) for desired public opionion.....this gives them confidence.......coupled with the urgency stated here www.safehaven.com...

and here

www.nytimes.com...


needing more money to service the debt that they

1. need to keep GROWING to avoid a debt deflation (depression) of monumental proportions....

but 2..the money to pay down this growing debt is just not there....the marginal productivity of new debt added has gone NEGATIVE and the deficit is negative so

they need to pull a rabit out of a hat..and find some $ ..or go the way that more and more country's like GREECE are headed ...soverign defaults......

the first link shows how they will do it....how it maybe framed and so forth .....

when the SHTF and the bond market tanks wether in 2 years or 6 (if they get our savings) phsyical tangible commodities should shine.....instead of paper....which is seen as worth much less when currency tanks via bond market explosions.....gold and silver should be bought and held....with physical delivery.

i was one who was sounding the alarm in 2007-2008 leading up to the financial crisis and it is time to sound it again for the 2011-2012 period.....the fed gov't effectively removed the debt noose from around the financial sector's neck and onto their (and are) own....this bought them time and money.........

hopefully if you are reading this you are employed and in a pretty job safe profession should the economic SHTF.....war may likely accompany the large number of gov't debt defaults that are set to occur over the next decade.....starting now with greece buckle the F UP

[edit on 9-4-2010 by cpdaman]




posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 03:15 PM
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I wrote a rather long explanation about this on my blog. I cannot link to it because of TOS and all, but you have some excellent points.

There was even an outline on how they would do this written by a woman who presented it in a conference to Nancy Pelosi and the democrats several *years* ago, now.

Here is a summary:

Hold on to your 401(k) and IRA! The Government is coming!
Sunday, February 8, 2009

Since 2007, in fact. A briefing paper was submitted on how this could be done, and how to pull it off as "necessary" to save the economy.

The paper was submitted to the hearings, in which the writer participated.

"On November 20, 2007, Dr. Ghilarducci participated in the Economic Policy Institute's latest "Agenda for Shared Prosperity" event in Washington, DC. At the event, she unveiled a briefing paper, Guaranteed Retirement Accounts, which outlines her vision for combining the best features of traditional defined-benefit pensions and 401(k)-style defined-contribution plans."

When the government was fretting over losing "billions, even trillions!", a lot of what they were speaking about was *our* money, that we watched disappearing from our 401 and IRA statements.

As of October, November, and December of 2008, they were talking about how seizing the accounts would net them nearly four trillion easily. Could this be the provocation behind the stimulus?

The claim is, it costs the government $80 billion a year in unpaid taxes on these accounts. How is it costing the government $80 billion in unpaid taxes, then on the other hand people are saying, "That money in your 401 wasn't really there, it was assumed income based on your earnings at retirement, and only your real dollars were there."

Huh? Is it digital dollars, or is it really a loss? The real answer comes after retirement as the funds are withdrawn, where they still get taxed. Sure, at a lesser rate, but that's the benefits *earned* by saving in these accounts.

I call it a percieved loss for the government, as it isn't tangible. They want your accounts, because when they seize them, it becomes tangible nearly $4 trillion payout.

I say, chase down all the Democrats who forgot to pay their taxes and make them! That ought to even it out some...considering they feel they are above silly things like, oh, I don't know... taxes?

This statement, alone, under her proposed plan - should chill your blood.

"Death benefits. Participants who die before retiring can bequeath half their account balances to heirs; those who die after retiring can bequeath half their final account balance minus benefits received."

You can download the pdf here:
www.sharedprosperity.org...

(Got to love that website name, huh?)

After your 401 or IRA is seized, they would open an account for every American, and start it with $500.00. Spread the wealth, remember?

Every American, even those not working, because, that's only fair, right? The government will then automagically deduct %5 of your pay after tax to go to the account, and meet your deposit with only %3 annually. This is mandatory, too, by the way. Not voluntary like retirement accounts are now.

Why mandatory? Because they say, "People are not intelligent enough to save on their own, we must do it for them."

When you die, your family inherits only half the balance, the other half goes into the government coffers.

Half. Half of *your* money. So anything they give as "interest", is taken back, not to mention part of your *real* income, which was already taxed to hell, because it will be taxed under their plan, not pre-tax, like it is now.

For instance, if you have a balance of $200,000 in your 401, if you die before you retire, your family gets half. So, $100,000. So you lose $97,000 if you consider their co-pay of %3 as going back to them.

If you die after you retire, they get less than half, which is still stealing your money because you paid %5, matched to their %3. This is misleading because it is less than half. It is half plus %3. Isn't that kind of a death tax or something?

So they get half the balance, minus the %3 they put in, *and* a portion of what you paid in. It's a win win for them! That is, after they seize them, they pay you a measly %3 government interest as opposed to up to 6% now.

So lets see. $200,000 minus %3 off the top at $6,000, then halved.

Leaves your family $97,000.

So that would be $103,000 back to the government.

It's only somewhat beneficial if you die before you retire, where they would get back $100,000 skipping the %3. Your family gets an extra $3,000. Woo. Hoo.

Wealth redistribution at it's finest! Not so far fetched after the first weeks of the presidency, is it now?


More info:

www.lvrj.com...

www.subchat.com...

www.financialservices.org...

www.investmentnews.com.../20081012/REG/310139971/0/TOC


House Democrats contemplate abolishing 401(k) tax breaks
Mandatory contributions from workers considered

By Sara Hansard

October 12, 2008 6:01 am ET

Powerful House Democrats are eyeing proposals to overhaul the nation's $3 trillion 401(k) system, including the elimination of most of the $80 billion in annual tax breaks that 401(k) investors receive.




posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 05:38 PM
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yes this is an issue which i know alot of people would actually put time into to look deeper

i personally don't have a 401k with my job.......but i'm still very interested in how this would come about.

for people that care check out the links in the thread and give it a read.

i mean apathetic or not....i think people draw the line at losing control of there retirement benefits.....if not losing them outright to a desperate gov't trying to fund it's debt's......



[edit on 9-4-2010 by cpdaman]



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 06:01 PM
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reply to post by cpdaman
 


I lost more than half of my 401(b), just due to stocks.

In the past several months as the market has floundered in what I think is a false recovery, it has built nearly back to the balance it was, but I really do not consider I will ever see dime one. If I do, I am sure I will lose more than half the value in taxes, due to the need to pay off this horrendous national debt.

Will the government steal my money? I think so.

I have a seperate account now, in savings, and some investments in gemstones that I will count on. I kind of leave the 401 there to see what happens, but I know I will lose it.

If I see another crash coming, I will make every attempt to cash out before I lose that much again, and probably still come out better than I did the first go round.

I would rather get something back out of it than to lose it all to them.



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 06:07 PM
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why don't you just cash out now ....take the penalthy and have some gauranteed $$$. if you are sure you are sure it will be gone

and then add to that gemstone collection or say buy several ounces of gold?

gold seems poised to rise......

i look at it like this.....there is a limited supply of gold......there is a large amount of $$ in paper assets (bonds)......

(relative) to $ invested in bonds a very small amount has been invested in gold......should the bond market blow up within 5 years...from inability to service debt .....would it be logical to conclude even 20% of this $ moving into gold would cause the gold price to SOAR.



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 06:49 PM
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reply to post by cpdaman
 


I want to build a bit more before I make a move, really. I am paying only minimally into it, but I like the matched rewards, it is just enough to counter off the taxes in a cash off, I think.

I will only cash out at this point, if I see an imminent crash, I just hope I am awake and able to get to a phone if/when it happens. Basically, I am riding the wave a bit longer.

After seeing gold go through this twice in my lifetime, and watching it drop to 300$ an ounce, I am surely not dropping 1k or more an ounce for it now. That's why I chose gemstones, instead. Gold just feels a bit too risky to me, and it is hard to verify purity without destroying the face value of coins and such.

I can verify the quality of a gem, as I have invested time and money into education and equipment. Gems seem to have a better chance at growing in value, especially some of the rarer ones. That's if you get lucky enough to get in on the bottom, like the 300$ an ounce gold.

If I see any firm government move towards 401's, I will also cash in that instant, no questions. That is why I appreciate your posting, as it is a stark reminder they are gunning for it.

I like having several options going at once, the 401, the savings, and the gem investments. I don't want to have all my eggs in one basket, so to speak.

The 401 could almost instantly become unrecoverable. The savings account, as well if my bank decides to freeze withdrawals duing a "run", but them gems are in my possession and safe, steadilly acruing value.

I am, however, considering silver buillion, not on paper or in some elses "storage", but delivered to my door. It's affordable, and in the end I can make jewelry out of it and use my gems and sell them if need be. I will probably recoup far more than I invested. There is a bold transition into silver jewelry now as gold becomes more and more out of reach for most people.

I do not have a large amount of disposable income, so I have to buy in increments that I can handle, which leaves silver as a wonderful option, and shows real value in the jewelry market.


ETA - I also forgot to mention the stories coming out about how the gold reserves are not really in the banks selling gold, but in reality are based on assumed gold yet to even be mined. Forgot where I read this, but another reason I don't trust gold atm.




[edit on 9-4-2010 by Libertygal]



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 06:58 PM
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Originally posted by cpdaman
why don't you just cash out now ....take the penalthy and have some gauranteed $$$. if you are sure you are sure it will be gone

and then add to that gemstone collection or say buy several ounces of gold?

gold seems poised to rise......

i look at it like this.....there is a limited supply of gold......there is a large amount of $$ in paper assets (bonds)......

(relative) to $ invested in bonds a very small amount has been invested in gold......should the bond market blow up within 5 years...from inability to service debt .....would it be logical to conclude even 20% of this $ moving into gold would cause the gold price to SOAR.


Probably the worst advice on the internet at this current time



posted on Apr, 9 2010 @ 11:39 PM
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reply to post by cpdaman
 



tell me more...


is the term "401k" meant to include IRAs and ROTH accounts??

i hear 401k all the time, but there are trillion$ locked up in IRAs /ROTHs
as well.
i have a self directed IRA as one entity, comprised of 13 seperate DRIP accounts (taking the place of a single, registered 'custodian')
and a DWS account (as custodian) ROTH account, specializing in PMs

Am i under a false illusion that these IRAs/ROTHs will be technically immune from government seizure, because of their legal standing which is different than the 'traveling' 401k which is always transferable & follows one through their employment history.



~~~~~~~~~~~~


oh, and Libertygal thanks for the info,
but i've heard that an eventual Gov't seizure of the 401k's ...they would be instantly transformed into a type of 'annuity' product, rather than the snarled mess you explained to a degree.



posted on Apr, 10 2010 @ 02:07 PM
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Originally posted by GreenBicMan

Originally posted by cpdaman
why don't you just cash out now ....take the penalthy and have some gauranteed $$$. if you are sure you are sure it will be gone

and then add to that gemstone collection or say buy several ounces of gold?

gold seems poised to rise......

i look at it like this.....there is a limited supply of gold......there is a large amount of $$ in paper assets (bonds)......

(relative) to $ invested in bonds a very small amount has been invested in gold......should the bond market blow up within 5 years...from inability to service debt .....would it be logical to conclude even 20% of this $ moving into gold would cause the gold price to SOAR.


Probably the worst advice on the internet at this current time


probably the worst interrpetation (by you) of a question asked (by me) based on someone's stated belief

but then again you think the nation's financial system is on the up and up and that the gov't has a handle on things .....no? instead of an expensive bandaid to inflate the value of assets held against over valued (marked to myth)...debt....which there is not yet enough political will to write off or down to "sustainable levels"



posted on Apr, 10 2010 @ 02:12 PM
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No government is taking your 401k's or your 403b's and they are not taking your guns. I know a lot of people within this industry and this is total bull#.

Have a nice day.



posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 11:33 AM
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Originally posted by GreenBicMan
No government is taking your 401k's or your 403b's and they are not taking your guns. I know a lot of people within this industry and this is total bull#.

Have a nice day.


of course they are not.....they wouldn't even think about it.


and who's talking about guns?
or does that help you dismiss the issue


[edit on 14-4-2010 by cpdaman]



posted on Apr, 14 2010 @ 11:45 AM
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Because about 5 months ago all the talk was about OBAMA taking your guns. Now it's another form of bull# that is saying he is taking your life savings. This is all based on falsities and conjecture by rightwing propaganda artists. And no, I hate both parties, so I do not tow that line.

Again, I know many many financial professionals that know many lobbyists in the financial services industry and this is 100% false. In fact many clients have asked my dad the same thing because they heard some rumor like this. It's a joke. If you are doubting what I am saying, I have posted in the market thread about policy changes to take effect that were forthcoming that the MSM had not even came out with over a year ago. I'm not lying and I would have nothing to gain from such as well.



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