Can the human eye actually emit an energy beam?, page 13

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reply posted on 20-4-2010 @ 03:41 PM by earthdude

I'll bet anyone I can fool the Electromagnetic Beam Detection System with an index card with eyes on it. No real life energy detector exists, yet.

reply posted on 20-4-2010 @ 04:01 PM by Bedlam

This guy is going to be eaten alive in review. This is the sort of paper you get when you have non-physicists publishing physics in a non-physics journal.

All he's done is make a capacitive coupling to the guy's head. He's reading the tiny electric field you pick up on EEGs, not some sort of propagating radio signal.

Not only that, he obviously doesn't understand the material he's quoting on page 53 and 54 as regards ELF.

Can you spot the logical fallacy in THIS statement? "Additionally, common sense would lead one to conclude
that if an astronaut on the moon can maintain voice communication with
the earth, then digitized electromagnetic signals containing information could
be transmitted and received in the biosphere over distances of hundreds of
meters."

Not only that, he's not familiar with the Shannon-Nyquist criterion, because even IF your eye could emit ELF as a radio wave (it can't) then you can't transmit information on that link any faster than 1/2 the frequency of the wave. So a 1Hz "eye beam" can't possibly send information faster than one bit every two seconds, but in practice to get any SNR at all, you'd have to limit that to 1 bit every 10 seconds.

I can't believe the Anthropological Association is so lax in vetting papers that they let this one slide by.

reply posted on 20-4-2010 @ 04:16 PM by Bedlam

Originally posted by Hedera Helix
reply to post by ucalien

Doesn't the Navy use ELF to communicate while under water? They previously had to surface to communicate... that's no longer necessary these days. And I just finished reading a blog discussing QUANTUM TELEPORTATION being used with the Spirit land rover on Mars. Which makes this thread's claims look like a cake walk in comparison.

Not anymore, they don't.

The transmitter had an antenna some 70 miles long. Which was ridiculously short, because the wave they were emitting was nearly 1000 miles long. So they had to put in about 6 million Watts to get maybe 8 Watts of emitted power. You see, the size of the antenna has to correspond to the size of the wave in order to be efficient, and this was such a mismatch they spent most of the power on heating the wire and the transmitter.

In order to receive it, the subs either had to trail a receive array, not just a wire, but an active tail with little amplifiers down the thing, several hundred feet long so that they could, not actually RECEIVE the wave, which they wouldn't be able to do well, but to look at the voltage slope of the e-field of the wave across the trailing array. Later receivers put a superconducting interference detector onboard (yeah, with liquid nitrogen), to look at the magnetic field of the ELF wave.

These days they use VLF and something else.

At any rate, the cautionary tale is this - your eye isn't NEARLY large enough to emit a propagating ELF wave. Someone's nervous system isn't NEARLY large enough or sensitive enough to respond to it. What this guy is seeing is a straight electric field that he's capacitively coupling to, and he's no signals guy, he doesn't understand what he's looking at. So he sees something, and jumps to the wrong conclusions. And he's not versed enough to read the relevant lit and understand it.

reply posted on 20-4-2010 @ 04:22 PM by Bedlam

Originally posted by FortAnthem

Originally posted by monkeykillingmonkey
reply to post by FortAnthem

I'm confused first you said there is now "scientific proof" of this, then in the next sentence you said a "psychiatrist claims". Is there not a difference between a claim and actually proof?

It's simple, A psychiatrist claims to have found scientific proof of the eyes emitting energy.

But psychiatrists are noteworthy for their lack of education in physics. So when you see one doing what is essentially a physics experiment, without a technical consult, you have to ask yourself, is this guy competent to do this experiment and form conclusions of this sort?

It would be like me doing experiments in surgery. I could easily determine that the death gland is somewhere in your abdomen, because when I cut people open using Certified OK Surgical Tools, they die. In fact, I'm not finding the Death Organ in there at all, I just don't know what the heck I'm doing.

reply posted on 20-4-2010 @ 04:31 PM by Bedlam

Originally posted by TiM3LoRd
reply to post by Phage

doesnt the human body emit infrared radiation? in fact i have seen video of qi gon masters setting fire to paper and when recorded under infrared camera generated enough heat to turn water into steam......explain that.

www.youtube.com...

I'll set up the lab, he can come in and set fire to the paper, in my lab setup, not his demo setup. Bet his magic Qi Gong powers evaporate then.

Come to that, he can Qi Gong me with his magic Qi power and we'll see if it has any effect. Ever see what happened when Dillman tried it on a skeptic instead of a student?

reply posted on 20-4-2010 @ 04:38 PM by Bedlam

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
I had a friend who was in the marines in the 80's. He claimed that they tought him what they called the "6th sense". The lesson was that if you were deep infiltrating, say you intended to sneak up on an unsuspecting opponet to snap his neck, that you refrain from staring at them too much too directly as you sneak up. He also referenced how int he movies you often see the guy looking to the side while doing such. Maybe he was full of it, I dont know.

Well, I don't know about Marines but the Army does, if you get the cutting people's throats class. You either don't stare at them, or you do this hara visualization thing where you imagine your lower abdomen is full of ice chips.

But, they also told me that a .50 cal would rip the flesh off of your bones if it passed within a foot of you, that there was a collection of sidearm parts, a razor blade and a single .45 cartridge hidden by the flagpole and a number of other things which were, well, crap.

OTOH, that brachial stun thing is the bomb, once you get it down right.

reply posted on 20-4-2010 @ 04:50 PM by Bedlam

Originally posted by TheCuriousEngineerI think where we're running into some confusion here is the difference between emission and efficient emission. Let's assume that to be an efficient emitter of 60 Hz EM waves a monopole antenna needs to be at least 1/10th of the wavelength of the signal. Then that would require an antenna 310 miles long! But do we encounter 60 Hz interference from "antennas" that are shorter than 310 miles? Absolutely! We can't get rid of the stuff, its everywhere. An "antenna" need not be a significant portion of the signals wavelength to transmit that signal, it will just not be a very good emitter. Like I said before, there is nothing preventing your body from transmitting a signal, but it would not be high in magnitude at all.

However, also as an electrical engineer, what you're seeing from the 60Hz signal is not propagating EM waves, but the E or H field components. Moreover, the amount of power behind the E and H fields you're seeing is very large, and the transmission lines, while not 1/10 of a wavelength, are far from short.

Compared to, say, the microvolt level of emission you're getting from this setup, which is nothing more than a capacitive couple from the guy's ear to a plate electrode. In this case, the wavelength-to-emitter-length ratio is off the chart; the input power is infinitesimal. While in theory it might manage to launch a wave in the yoctowatts, and the signal, if such there were, would be so many dB below the noise that it could be construed to be non-existent in practical terms.

This guy's in the near field, he's picking up nothing but a cap couple of the guy's EEG.

reply posted on 20-4-2010 @ 08:14 PM by drew hempel

reply to post by Bedlam

Ha! you can just go to Minnesota and get the Qigong charge up from Chunyi Lin -- he's corroborated by the Mayo Clinic -- the top hospital in the world.

springforestqigong.com... -- see the testimonials -- lots of people healed of serious diseases....

The thing about qigong is it's not based on science -- it's interactive.

So Chunyi Lin was supposed to be "fake" healer in a control study of qigong -- but since he can sense someone's injury and FEEL it then the real healing is part of his way to counteract his sensing of their sickness.

In other words the reason qigong masters are not going out of their way to seek out scientists to be tested is because the training requires isolation in a pure environment, etc.

Yan Xin has been tested by Harvard medical doctors -- published in several Western science journals...

reply posted on 20-4-2010 @ 08:36 PM by Bedlam

Originally posted by drew hempel
reply to post by Bedlam

The thing about qigong is it's not based on science -- it's interactive.

Not based on science, of that I've no doubt.

In other words the reason qigong masters are not going out of their way to seek out scientists to be tested is because the training requires isolation in a pure environment, etc

How...convenient.

The local Qi Gong guy in Huntsville was supposed to be able to throw colored Qi balls o' doom at things and kill them. Didn't kill me - yet. His adherents were all brainwashed over it, though. For them, it might have worked. I so loved that clip where Dillman tried to Qi Gong a reporter to death, and the guy just shrugged.

OTOH, the one guy that COULD kill goats, at least he did it once, did it with Qi Gong. Supposedly.

reply posted on 20-4-2010 @ 08:51 PM by drew hempel

reply to post by Bedlam

How convenient to not even google for the qigong science research!

O.K. I'll help you out -- here's a few Yan Xin SCIENCE qigong research results -- Harvard scientists!

content.karger.com...

www.yanxinqigong.cn...

www.scientificexploration.org...

Here's the Mayo Clinic study on qigong:

www.springforestqigong.com...

External Qigong for Chronic Pain,
Results from a Randomized Controlled Clinical Study
Jamia Hill, RN, DC; Anne Vincent, MD,
Stephen Cha, PhD., Nisha Manek, MD, MRCP
Mayo Clinic, Rochester, MN

Objective:

Chronic pain is highly prevalent in the general population. Adequate clinical management of chronic pain is an ongoing challenge and a purely pharmaceutical approach has proven inadequate. We investigated the efficacy of external Qigong [Spring Forest Qigong technique] as an adjunctive treatment for chronic pain.

Conclusions:

Subjects with chronic pain who received external Qigong experienced reduction in pain intensity following each Qigong treatment. This is especially impressive given the long duration of pain in the majority of subjects.

Here's Western scientists testing John Chang qigong master:

www.youtube.com...

reply posted on 20-4-2010 @ 09:29 PM by Bedlam

Originally posted by drew hempel

Interestingly enough, I can't seem to find that your paper "External Qigong for Chronic Pain" from Mayo Clinic was ever published. I'm looking, but I don't see it. It was presented at an integrative medicine symposium a year ago, but I'm not seeing a publication anywhere. Odd.

At any rate, it would be interesting to see what the P scores were, and how the experiment was set up. Chronic pain studies are difficult to score, due to the subjective nature of pain. That's one reason you can get positive results by telling the study participants that you are using something like "reiki", then just waving your hands around and humming.

"External Qi of Yan Xin Qigong Induces Apoptosis" is more interesting, since it's effectively at least single-blinded and has decent p values, but the experiment should have been blinded to the researchers as well, and was not. Since the research was sponsored by the foundation which wants this to be true, and the experimenters were not blinded by experimental design, you'd have to wonder about that one. It might be more interesting if set up properly.

Your next link has nothing to do with Qi Gong, but is an analysis of some sort of TCM.

The next one has the top listed researcher as being the one that "emits qi gong". Ha! You've got to be kidding. It's typical of the sort of thing published in Journal of Scientific Exploration, which is sort of the peer-reviewed National Enquirer. LiF detectors are prone to showing neutron flux when moved to a new location where they're not in thermal equilibrium. A flux of "10 times background", if the background is extremely small to begin with, is nothing spectacular. It might be more interesting if you set up a number of detectors in somewhat separated locations, then got Yan Xin to influence just one, randomly selected. If you have four of them you've brought into a locale, and you have no controls (which by the way, there's NOT), then hell, you could have anything from a thermal disequilibrium to a fluke neutron spike. Put him in a really large venue, with detectors that have been there for a while scattered around the perimeter, then spin the bottle, have him influence ONE of them. Not close up, either. Qi gong that thing from 10 feet away.

You'll note that their crappy "control" also provided a positive indication which they try to handwave away by "perhaps it was some human audience effect on dosimeters". Yeah, ya think?

The other tests are somewhat interesting but are small samples, and man, it's tough to get around the fact that the researcher is the qi source, and it was done at his facility.

post script:

On the other hand, Mike did supposedly kill goats with Qi Gong, so it's got that going for it.

[edit on 20-4-2010 by Bedlam]

reply posted on 20-4-2010 @ 09:43 PM by drew hempel

reply to post by Bedlam

You've neglected the John Chang video.

"background levels" hints at the "negative upper limit" technological infinite regress issue that Professor H.M. Collins nails.

Quantum biology anyone? What's the background level of "squeezed light"? Yet biophotons are the Western model for qigong healing.

reply posted on 20-4-2010 @ 10:04 PM by drew hempel

reply to post by Bedlam

Ah so easily the "scientists" stop replying! haha.

Scared maybe?

I know qigong is real! haha.

sci.tech-archive.net...

Background levels? Here's the actual nuclear physicist who tested Yan Xin in China:

www.martialdevelopment.com...

www.qigonginstitute.org...

[edit on 20-4-2010 by drew hempel]

[edit on 20-4-2010 by drew hempel]

reply posted on 20-4-2010 @ 10:05 PM by Bedlam

Originally posted by drew hempel
reply to post by Bedlam

You've neglected the John Chang video.

You bet. I'm also not watching any reiki videos or whatnot tonight. I find qi gong tiresome; so far, all you've posted were non-published papers of which only an abstract exists, or stuff that's published by the same people trying to prove it's real, in one case the guy himself is the first named researcher.

I actually spent a good bit of time reading it, my qi gong bs limit has been hit for the night.

"background levels" hints at the "negative upper limit" technological infinite regress issue that Professor H.M. Collins nails.

Quantum biology anyone? What's the background level of "squeezed light"? Yet biophotons are the Western model for qigong healing.

I don't know a lot of legitimate research in 'biophotons', the field seems beset by snake oil salesmen, so yep, it probably is a model for qigong healing.

On the other hand, there's always Sgt Mike. The tales of the goat slaying were many and lurid.

reply posted on 20-4-2010 @ 10:12 PM by Bedlam

Originally posted by drew hempel
reply to post by Bedlam

Ah so easily the "scientists" stop replying! haha.

Scared maybe?

I know qigong is real! haha.

Nope, I actually have a life, and it's not spent waiting with bated breath for your next qigong post, oddly enough. Haha.

YouTube Link

Never embedded a YT link before, hopefully this will work. Ha ha.

If not, try the link! Ha ha!

[edit on 20-4-2010 by Bedlam]

reply posted on 20-4-2010 @ 10:15 PM by drew hempel

reply to post by Bedlam

Ah so since you don't know about it then it doesn't exist!

How CONVENIENT!! haha. What a JOKE!

O.K. I gave you ONE study that is NOT by the person doing the chi emission and it is PUBLISHED!

content.karger.com...

And so you say -- ah it's just the abstract! haha. Nice excuse.

There happens to be a Harvard medical database of qigong studies -- over 2000 abstracts!!

www.qigonginstitute.org...

Here's another International Journal of Neuroscience qigong publication:

QI-TRAINING (QIGONG) ENHANCED IMMUNE FUNCTIONS: WHAT IS THE UNDERLYING MECHANISM?
Authors: Myeong Soo Lee a; Mo Kyung Kim b;Hoon Ryu c
Affiliations: a Center for Integrative Medicine, Institute of Medical Science, Wonkwang University, Iksan, Republic of Korea
b Department of Physical Education and Tricology, Graduate School, Kunsan National University, Kunsan, Republic of Korea
c Department of Neurology, Boston University School of Medicine, Bedford, Massachusetts, USA
DOI: 10.1080/00207450590914347
Publication Frequency: 12 issues per year
Published in: journal International Journal of Neuroscience, Volume 115, Issue 8 August 2005 , pages 1099 - 1104
Subject: Neuroscience;
Formats available: HTML (English) : PDF (English)

Abstract
The authors observed that Qi-training enhances immune function and modulates neurohormone concentrations. The exact signal and priming mechanism for enhanced neutrophil function by Qi-training has not yet been demonstrated. This study investigated the effect of Qi-training on intracellular signaling leading to the enhancement of immune function. The growth hormone (GH) concentrations and O2- production by neutrophils (PMNs) was significantly increased after 1 h of Qi-training compared with the basal state. To verify that endogenous GH mediates the priming of PMNs, serum obtained from elderly subjects in the basal state and after Qi-training was incubated with neutrophils isolated from young subjects for 60 min and triggered with N-formyl-1-methionyl-1-leucyl-1-phenylalanine (fMLP). Significant O2- production was observed in the PMNs incubated with serum collected after a Qi-training (p < .05). On the other hand, the priming effect on the PMNs was abolished in Qi-training sera depleted of endogenous GH with anti-human GH polyclonal antibody (p < .01) and the tyrosine kinase inhibitor, genistein (p < .01). The authors suggest that the endogenous GH released during and immediately after Qi-training mediates the priming events through tyrosine kinase activation in PMNs.
Keywords: GH antibody; growth hormone; qigong; tyrosin kinase

Summary
International Journal of Neuroscience
2005, Vol. 115, No. 9, Pages 1345-1350 , DOI 10.1080/00207450590934543

EFFECTS OF QI-THERAPY (EXTERNAL QIGONG) ON CARDIAC AUTONOMIC TONE: A RANDOMIZED PLACEBO CONTROLLED STUDY
MYEONG SOO LEE‌1†, MO KYUNG KIM‌2 and YONG-HEUM LEE‌3
1Center for Integrative Medicine Institute of Medical Science Wonkwang University Iksan, Republic of Korea
2Department of Physical Education and Tricology Graduate School Kusan National University Kusan, Republic of Korea
3Institute of Medical Engineering Yonsei University Wonju, Republic of Korea
†Correspondence: MYEONG SOO LEE, PhD, Complementary Medicine, Peninsula Medical School, Universities of Exeter and Plymouth, 25 Victoria Park Road, Exeter, Devon, EX2 4NT, UK

Heart-rate variability (HRV) was compared in 40 subjects receiving external Qi-therapy (QT) or placebo control therapy, in a randomized placebo controlled design experiment. There were significant time, and group × time interactions in heart rate (HR), low frequency (LF), high frequency (HF), and LF/HF. These suggest that QT reduced the HR and increased HRV as indicated by a reduced LF/HF power ratio of HRV. These findings suggest that QT stabilizes the sympathovagal function more than placebo therapy.

[edit on 20-4-2010 by drew hempel]

[edit on 20-4-2010 by drew hempel]

[edit on 20-4-2010 by drew hempel]

reply posted on 20-4-2010 @ 10:22 PM by drew hempel

reply to post by Bedlam

Oh let me guess -- on that John Change video the scientists are SHOCKED when their hands touch his belly -- because?

1) Placebo effect? Not likely

2) They're paid shills in on the stunt? Not likely.

3) John Chang has a device rigged to him? Nope they test him in a place of their choice.

4) JUST DON'T WATCH THE VIDEO -- and then -- guess what? Qigong is not real!

Ah science it's beautiful!

reply posted on 20-4-2010 @ 10:26 PM by Bedlam

Originally posted by drew hempel
Ah so since you don't know about it then it doesn't exist!

How CONVENIENT!! haha. What a JOKE!

O.K. I gave you ONE study that is NOT by the person doing the chi emission and it is PUBLISHED!

You need to dab the froth off the corner of your mouth there. No, a little higher. Good.

Ok - reread my response:

""External Qi of Yan Xin Qigong Induces Apoptosis" is more interesting, since it's effectively at least single-blinded and has decent p values, but the experiment should have been blinded to the researchers as well, and was not. Since the research was sponsored by the foundation which wants this to be true, and the experimenters were not blinded by experimental design, you'd have to wonder about that one. It might be more interesting if set up properly."

And so you say -- ah it's just the abstract! haha. Nice excuse.

You really should learn to read a bit more carefully, I read the whole thing and responded to you as you can see.

There happens to be a Harvard medical database of qigong studies -- over 2000 abstracts!!

Ok. I'm sure they're as good as the ones you've published so far, but please, don't cut and paste the whole thing here and go Ha! HA!!!!11!! when I don't read them all.

www.qigonginstitute.org...

Ah, yes, the University of Dentistry of New Jersey - the giants.

reply posted on 20-4-2010 @ 10:26 PM by drew hempel

reply to post by Bedlam

Dude a martial artist is not the same as qigong masters. First of all you gotta know the difference between shen, qi, and jing. Shen is the biophoton energy, qi is electromagnetic and jing is electrochemical. Martial artists focus on jing energy through tai chi.

www.qigongmaster.com...

This guy is a real qigong master -- and guess what Chunyi Lin trained with him and went 49 days in a cave in full lotus with NO WATER, NO FOOD and NO SLEEP.

So that's not martial arts -- it's cave meditation to be a qigong master.

[edit on 20-4-2010 by drew hempel]

reply posted on 20-4-2010 @ 10:35 PM by Bedlam

Originally posted by drew hempel
reply to post by Bedlam

This guy is a real qigong master -- and guess what Chunyi Lin trained with him and went 49 days in a cave in full lotus with NO WATER, NO FOOD and NO SLEEP.

So that's not martial arts -- it's cave meditation to be a qigong master.

[edit on 20-4-2010 by drew hempel]

Ok, yeah, sure you betcha. Cave meditation. It's all so clear to me now.

edit: shutting it down for the night, after that one what more can be said?

[edit on 20-4-2010 by Bedlam]