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Self Defense in the book of Revelations

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posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 01:08 AM
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Anyone know any verses, scriptures, or gospels in the book of Revelations that permits self defense? Specifically when Christians are to be persecuted during the tribulation, for they will be hated for His namesake.


I found a few in the new and old testaments that imply self defense but I was looking more for it in Revelations specifically.

Here are a few scriptures:

Exodus 22:2-3 ESV
If a thief is found breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no bloodguilt for him, but if the sun has risen on him, there shall be bloodguilt for him. He shall surely pay. If he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.

Luke 22:36 ESV
He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.

1 Timothy 5:8 ESV
But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Luke 11:21 ESV
When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe


Opinions and feed back quite welcome


[edit on 7-4-2010 by AzoriaCorp]




posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 01:21 AM
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if you need a biblical justification to defend yourself, then i think evolution is ensuring you die off to cleanse the genepool.

just sayin...



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 01:22 AM
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Well i personally dont see how the last few passages have anything to do with self defence.




1 Timothy 5:8 ESV
But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.


This to me is a passage stating that you should provide for your family and for those of your household as in keeping them fed and clothed etc. Take care of those who your responsible for. To add to this to mean to defend them with violence towards someone else is a stretch.




Exodus 22:2-3 ESV
If a thief is found breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no bloodguilt for him, but if the sun has risen on him, there shall be bloodguilt for him. He shall surely pay. If he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.


Keep in mind here that this is old testament and laws for the hebrews to live by. A social code of conduct on how to treat thieves here. Doesnt really apply to this day and age to our society as societies have definetly changed since the time of moses.

My question here is why are you looking for this info? Do you feel like its the end of the world and you want to be able to kill or hurt someone and be justified?
If your christian then the idea of causing harm to another person should be furthest from your mind. What i find most troubling by most christians and again i will state for the record is why i no longer associate myself with you people and have turned from the faith is that you are anything but christian. To be christian is to walk the path jesus put before you. To be christ like. Yeah we know humans are fallible and will fall by the wayside as it is said but to not even put forth the effort and to willingly think of how you can hurt or kill people to defend yourself is anything but christian. This is not how jesus walked in his lifetime. He taught tolerance, patience, acceptance and love. Forgiveness and repentance. I would think that as a christian you would be praying you never had to lift a hand against a fellow brother in anger or defence. Pray you never find yourself in that situation but if you did, say for instance had to go to war that you could reconcile that you serve the laws of man as god commanded but kept gods laws in your heart and tried to live the best christian life you could. taking a life during war is one thing and the person doing it has to reconcile unto hi god according to his belief. I think god would know your heart. I wonder do you know your own? Again i ask what is your purpose for wanting to know this?



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 01:30 AM
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The end times are all about SPIRITUAL WARFARE.

You will have your opportunity to defend your reputation and soul at God's judgment.

If you think an assault weapon and high velocity hollow point ammunition will get you into heaven, good luck.



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 01:36 AM
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reply to post by AzoriaCorp
 


As far as I know, Christian's aren't allowed to use or respond to anything with violence. So even if you find something in the Book of Revelations which permits violence in self-defense, your still going against your faith and religion.

What exactly are you going to use these sentences in the Book of Revelation for?
I really hope your not planning on using them in a court case to explain why you beat some guy up, because, you'd probably lose.



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 01:56 AM
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Originally posted by Jordan_The_Maori
reply to post by AzoriaCorp
 


As far as I know, Christian's aren't allowed to use or respond to anything with violence.


God allowed us to hunt and forage for food, all of which was once alive.
So that always involves the killing of something.
All of nature works in exactly the same way.

There is also the instinct for preservation of both self and family, which may involve violence.
But that type of violence must be carried out for all the right reasons, with a pure heart and good conscience.

What is not permissible is killing just for fun, vengeance, sport, or greed.

Man's law recognizes self defense and justifiable homicide, just as God's law does.



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 02:03 AM
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Originally posted by okamitengu
if you need a biblical justification to defend yourself, then i think evolution is ensuring you die off to cleanse the genepool.

just sayin...




Aha.... but what about people who haven't had enough life experience to fully understand or be fully sure about their own perception of good & evil? They can either stop hesitating with help from such writings or even just secular writings from philosophers, scientists, businessmen, leaders or entertainers. Or they can make use of their limited experience & do whatever feels like the best thing they can do.



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 02:14 AM
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Christians are spiritually attacked in almost every western Television and Hollywood creation,ie via cursing and cussing of the Lords Name, Christians turn the cheek and have done for decades.
Those who can see the world as it is know that christians have enemies at every turn, do you think the use of Jesus Christ as a dirty word in most Hollywood movies is some accident?
Any one with a rational mind knows other religions score brownie points with their leaders for trying to diminish Christs reputation amongst the general Christian populace.
Stalin was an enforcer who tried to exterminate the church he was a lackey propped up by the real enemies of the church.
Let God defend God, he knows all hearts and intentions.



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 02:58 AM
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So what did jesus come for? What was his message again? Be cool unless someone hurts you cause then you can whoop some ass? I think he claimed that you who is without sin cast the first stone. Maybe? I know its in there somewhere. Yep christians like this always find a way to justify having guns or killing or hurting someone cause its in the bible. Seriously there is one message and thats a simple one. Love one another. Period. Now i am not trying to say you cannot defend yourself but to find justification for it is wrong. Jesus absolutely wanted you to turn the other cheek. Without question this was his way and this was what he expected of others. The odd contradiction in the bible is that god brought his people out of bindage to go and conquer other nations and destroy them in his name only to turn around and have jesus come along and say ok killing is bad and hurting people is wrong. I get it but basically it seems like he wanted to make people aware that in the end violence is wrong and there is a better way.



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 03:05 AM
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reply to post by fizzy1
 


1 Timothy 5:8 ESV
But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

This is very relevant to self defense. It states to provide for your family and fellow followers, such as food and clothing, yes, but also safety. If you do not believe safety as a requisite of a man's duty of family and household, then I wont even try to debate this with you...

I ask this question in the thread as to find justification for self defense during the tribulation in which Revelations says is to come one day in which Christians will be persecuted for their faith. Some will be put to death for their faith if His name is not denounced. I am seeking God's word in which it permits a Christian believer to defend himself/herself against such tyranny. Would God judge them for not having faith in His plan or praise them for defending him/herself up until the end. I am going to do what I feel is necessary either way. I just was curious on what the Christian bible says about the subject in Revelations. Dont read into it anymore than that.



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 03:14 AM
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Originally posted by fizzy1
So what did jesus come for? What was his message again? Be cool unless someone hurts you cause then you can whoop some ass? I think he claimed that you who is without sin cast the first stone. Maybe? I know its in there somewhere. Yep christians like this always find a way to justify having guns or killing or hurting someone cause its in the bible. Seriously there is one message and thats a simple one. Love one another. Period. Now i am not trying to say you cannot defend yourself but to find justification for it is wrong. Jesus absolutely wanted you to turn the other cheek. Without question this was his way and this was what he expected of others. The odd contradiction in the bible is that god brought his people out of bindage to go and conquer other nations and destroy them in his name only to turn around and have jesus come along and say ok killing is bad and hurting people is wrong. I get it but basically it seems like he wanted to make people aware that in the end violence is wrong and there is a better way.


I am assuming you're referring to this scripture?

Matthew 5:39 ESV

But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Jesus did not mean to allow an evil one to do vital harm, only to not retaliate if only your pride was hurt. Such as an individual slapping you in the face. Do not react with violence, but turn the other cheek. Its practically a literal analogy by Jesus. Its not meant to be interpreted beyond that. If that was so, then Jesus would not of said this:

Luke 22:36 ESV

He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.

And that is new testament so your "Old testament no longer applies" excuse cannot apply.



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 06:45 AM
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reply to post by AzoriaCorp
 


I'm not sure that we're anywhere near the time when this question would be relevant-

But perhaps it's worth pointing out that martyrs are held in honour in Revelation. Nothing is said about finding ways of escaping martyrdom.



[edit on 7-4-2010 by DISRAELI]



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 02:31 PM
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Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by AzoriaCorp
 


I'm not sure that we're anywhere near the time when this question would be relevant-

But perhaps it's worth pointing out that martyrs are held in honour in Revelation. Nothing is said about finding ways of escaping martyrdom.



[edit on 7-4-2010 by DISRAELI]


I am in no way insinuating that the times of tribulation is upon us or even prophecy is coming to fruition, I am just asking a simple question and trying to find some research in the bible to back either answer to my question. That is all. There is no ulterior motive here. I guess that wasn't clear before but I hope that puts everyone at ease now because it seemed to be a concern. But I appreciate the info of martyrdom. How is a slaughter honorable though? I'm not sure I understand...



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 02:59 PM
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Originally posted by AzoriaCorp
How is a slaughter honorable though? I'm not sure I understand...


I think the theory is that they are offered a choice between conformity to the Beast or death; they refuse to conform, because they are loyal to God,
and death is the consequence.

(It need not be a formal trial; it might be the case that any seen around not wearing the right symbols would be in danger of getting lynched, no questions asked.)

They would then be held in honour for two reasons; firstly, for their love and loyalty towards God; secondly, the courage with which they faced the consequences of defiance. If they did not love God, or were afraid of death, they would have given in.

Hence the statement in ch 12 that the saints have conquered Satan "by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death."

In the days of the Roman Empire, martyrs were remembered with honour, and Christians being held in prison ("Confessors") had nearly as much status, but I suppose the real glory is in the presence of God, in heaven.

Sorry, I see so many people on this site expecting tribulation in the near future, that I took it for granted you were thinking along the same lines.

[edit on 7-4-2010 by DISRAELI]



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 03:06 PM
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reply to post by AzoriaCorp
 




You missed the bit in Leviticus 12:4.

"And if thou would catch a thief in the act of stealing, Thou must cracketh his ribs with the art of Jeet Kune Do, until he doth roleth around of the floor"

[edit on 7/4/10 by blupblup]



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 03:09 PM
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reply to post by DISRAELI
 


Well, ever seen the movie 300? The spartans marched up to confront the Persian army and fought because they refused to conform and submit to King Xerxes. They were a martyr because they were few and against many, knowing they were going to die, but they still fought and died for what they believed in and kept their honor. Wouldn't this scenario still apply in God's eyes? But instead of Spartans against Persians it would be Christians verses the Beast marked conformists?



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 03:26 PM
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reply to post by AzoriaCorp
 


All I can say is that I've been looking over various passages relating to Revelation witnesses, and I can see no reference to fighting back.

Other people have already pointed out the non-violent aspect of the gospel message, which is an important difference between Christians and Spartans.

Apart from that, I can only think of practical examples. Did Jesus resist arrest? Did Stephen? Or Paul? Admittedly Paul was willing to evade his opponents, as he did at Damascus, so Acts does not necessarily suggest that we're expected to walk into their hands.



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 05:06 PM
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Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by AzoriaCorp
 


All I can say is that I've been looking over various passages relating to Revelation witnesses, and I can see no reference to fighting back.

Other people have already pointed out the non-violent aspect of the gospel message, which is an important difference between Christians and Spartans.

Apart from that, I can only think of practical examples. Did Jesus resist arrest? Did Stephen? Or Paul? Admittedly Paul was willing to evade his opponents, as he did at Damascus, so Acts does not necessarily suggest that we're expected to walk into their hands.



Jesus did not resist arrest because it was God's plan for Him to specifically die. Peter was prepared to fight for Jesus but Jesus had told him to SHEALTH his sword. Note, that Jesus did not say to throw away his sword. Peter did not understand at the time but it was Jesus's destiny and purpose to be a martyr. I appreciate the info, and its been very helpful in my understanding but it just doesnt feel natural, even to my inner core of my being to just allow myself or family to be slain without resistance. Violence is not the way as Jesus has taught, this I understand and agree with. As Jesus had said who live by the sword shall die by it. Meaning those who lust for blood, violence, and malice shall themselves receive it. But I'm not sure he meant for his children to just lie down at the hands of evil and let them be slain. It just doesnt seem right. Morally, spiritually, and logically....



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 05:44 PM
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reply to post by AzoriaCorp
 


Perhaps my thinking is partly governed by the assumption that fighting against the forces of authority is not a practical option, because you would just get overwhelmed. That would probably be true for most periods of history (especially if the conformists were the overwhelming majority).

The fact that individuals in America have guns creates a different situation, a novel situation. I suppose the idea is that it would be possible to fight it out in a house-siege situation (would this be a good witness for the gospel?) I don't think Revelation is anticipating that possibility, so it doesn't have anything to say on the subject.

This isn't just limited to a tribulation situation. Most people's instincts would be to fight back. Yet the whole gist of the Matthew "cheek" passage is clearly against resistance to force. I can't offer you advice- I can only try to lay out what seems to be in the texts, since that was what you were originally asking about.

I may have to sleep on this and see if I come up with any further thoughts.

PS I'm annoyed with myself for writing "situation" so many times



[edit on 7-4-2010 by DISRAELI]



posted on Apr, 7 2010 @ 06:22 PM
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reply to post by DISRAELI
 



As I had said in a previous post, I dont believe Jesus was against using force. He had said to buy a sword if you had the money, and if you didnt have the money, sell your clothes so that you could buy one. I doubt Jesus meant in the Mathew scripture was against using any force. Jesus was merely saying do not avenge, do not react with violence if your pride was merely hurt. Such as someone slapping you on the cheek. And if this was the case to just turn the other, and NOT use force. Jesus wasnt against force, as he condoned owning weapons, but he also did not delve into it. Why? I am not sure but maybe he didnt because self defense was common knowledge and did not need emphasis.



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