400,000 year old German 7 ft long spears!

Ok, get ready for this one guys!

I was listening to an old coast to coast from 2009, july 22nd to be exact and someone mentioned this amazing find:

400,000 year old spears found in Germany coal mine!

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/7ba244b40c2e14b9.jpg[/atsimg]

Radiocarbon dating has confirmed that three wooden spears found in a coal mine in Schöningen, near Hannover, Germany, are the oldest complete hunting weapons ever found. Some 380,000 to 400,000 years old, the six- to 7.5-foot javelins were found in soil whose acids had been neutralized by a high concentration of chalk near the coal pit.

And then they drop this bomb!

Thousands of pieces of horse, elephant, and deer bone were also found at Schöningen. The bones showed cut marks from stone flints found with grooved wooden tools that probably held the flints. If Thieme can prove the flints were hafted in the wooden tools, they will be the oldest known composite tools in the world.

and i liked this bit too:

The Clacton lance tip suggested that people may have been hunting; the three spears from Schöningen now make it fairly certain that they were not merely scavenger-gatherers. That early man hunted big game is supported by the recent discovery of a fossilized rhinoceros shoulder blade with a projectile wound at Boxgrove, England, dated to 500,000 years ago.

www.archaeology.org...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/3d2a57303fab4e35.jpg[/atsimg]

I did some digging and found a news article about this discovery, here is some more information:

The three spears, each carved from the trunk of a spruce tree, are 6 feet to more than 7 feet long. They were found with more than 10,000 animal bones, mostly from horses, including many obviously butchered.

That indicates the ancient hunters were organized enough to trap horses and strong enough to kill them by throwing spears, perhaps ambushing herds that showed up for water.

``There's no question if you are hunting a group of horses coming along a lake, you must be strong. You have to plan it. You have to organize it,'' said archeologist Hartmut Thieme, whose crew made the discovery.

The spears, found as researchers worked one step ahead of an expanding coal mine, skewer the idea that humans at that time depended on scavenging and foraging, experts said.

www.thefreelibrary.com...

So forget about neanderthals, there were some kind of people 400,000 years ago using 7 feet long throwing spears and able to hunt and kill horses and elephants with ease because of the amount of bones found.

Think about that for a moment. Either there was a large community of hunters or a small group hunting with spears 400,000 years ago!

Here is another:

the artifacts are clearly 400,000 years old, based on the well-known age of the 10-meter-deep geological layer in which they were uncovered. The spears were unearthed along with notched wooden implements that presumably held stone blades, sundry stone tools, the remains of a fire and thousands of horse bones (some showing evidence of butchery).
At that time, Thieme says, the site was on the shore of a flat lake in a cool, open landscape of meadows and steppes.

www.trussel.com...


This is painting a nice picture for us! Down by the lake, waiting for big game to come for water and javeling them to death, butchering the meat and cooking it on a fire. How cool!

To me this really makes me question how old and how far back humans go. This isn't Africa, it's Germany! I wonder what the climate was like 400,000 years ago.

Very cool stuff, and oldie but a goodie for sure! Here is one more great article:
www.nytimes.com...


[edit on 7-4-2010 by BeastMaster2012]

I found these 2 photos!



www.le.ac.uk...


www.landschaftsmuseum.de...

reply to post by BeastMaster2012


If you were alive then that is who you would have been.

Imagine millions of years evolving from a small chimpanzee like ape,to
a javelin throwing creature, living with sabre toothed tigers and woolly mammoths.

What do you think about that?

[edit on 7-4-2010 by RRokkyy]

They found evidence in Norway of existence 200,000 years ago, but decided it was most likely Neanderthal... I would have to guess thats this case too logically, as they were all over mainland erope and being human contradicts a lot of evidence against humans then...

Originally posted by RRokkyy
If you were alive then that is who you would have been.

Imagine millions of years evolving from a small chimpanzee like ape,to
a javelin throwing creature, living with sabre toothed tigers and woolly mammoths.

What do you think about that?

As a "javelin throwing creature, living with sabre toothed tigers and woolly mammoths", I'd have been ignorant of the mechanics of evolution, and probably lacked the patience or intellectual capacity to benefit from any attempt to explain such things to me.

We've come a long way since then.

Or have we?

i would guess if you are making tools to hunt big game, you have to have a great deal of intelligence. I wonder what kind of places they would live in. I wonder when the first human/ape started to build homes..

reply to post by BeastMaster2012


for 400,000 years we haven't change, people in Africa still do this kind of activity, with similar equipments, don't they?

So what's to say humans have changed at all? The Technological changes could get destroyed in a matter of seconds? Nuclear holocaust? I don't believe humans have come this far due to evolution, but due to "will". It's all predestined..

Every choice we make give us a different outcome, hence programming, hence the IF statement..



[edit on 7-4-2010 by oozyism]

Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by BeastMaster2012

 

for 400,000 years we haven't change, people in Africa still do this kind of activity, with similar equipments, don't they?

So what's to say humans have changed at all? The Technological changes could get destroyed in a matter of seconds?

There are two popular theories about whether or not we have changed much in the past several hundred thousand years.

One holds that we are the beneficiaries of creeping knowledge gain. From the period of 400, 000ya we developed hand axes and spears. As they were improved upon and applied to create other technologies...our intellectual and social complexity increased. The idea is that we are were we are today as the result of all those interwoven advances in knowledge.

The second theory is called the Great Leap Forward or Upper Palaeolithic Revolution. This one contends that around 40,000 ya the human mind underwent a great change that resulted in the wave of cave art, complex societies and symbolic burials.

Both ideas seem credible. The first is maybe slightly more credible as it seeks to explain our smaller 'leaps forward'...stone tools, hand axes, fire, ambushes etc

Originally posted by BeastMaster2012
i would guess if you are making tools to hunt big game, you have to have a great deal of intelligence. I wonder what kind of places they would live in. I wonder when the first human/ape started to build homes..

Good question and very hard for science to ever know. We're primates and our other primate cousins use nests. It's likely that we also used nests some couple of million years ago. From there it's a small step to creating a shelter of foliage....huts.

The Dani Tribe of Papua New Guinea
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/24936269e69e.jpg[/atsimg]

Hadzabe Tribe
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/feaf809dd72f.jpg[/atsimg]

Our ancestors spent hundred of thousands of years as hunter-gatherers so 'homes' were initially likely to be temporary creations. Looking towards the societies of modern tribes, it's again likely that men went out to hunt for meat and women remained with the children and prepared plants for eating. At that point, we'd slowly become more socially complex and culture would begin to develop...myths, stories, language, agriculture...

The evidence of the shelters and homes have long ago rotted or disintegrated. What we have left are the fireplaces (hearths, circular areas of ash) and chipping floors where they sat around creating the latest stone blade or axe. Amidst all that there are sometimes found the remains of seeds, bones and sometimes a healthy fossilized turd!

reply to post by BeastMaster2012


400K year old German Spears...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They've found 400K year old 7 foot long spears in a German coal mine along with multifaceted tools....

Funny... It seems that every day something comes along and a discovery is made that blows the current darwinian theory out of the water, but instead of acknowledging it and saying we better rethink it, they just continually adjust their predictions of what should be found and their theories to match up with the evidence that was just five minutes ago, completely counter to their theories...

So 400K years ago people were living in Germany using relatively complex tools, and working in teams to bring down large game. Hmmm. previous discoveries at 200K years ago were found in Norway and they were written off as neanderthal, now they've found evidence of human tool use at over twice that.

Could it be that there are problems with the dating perhaps?

One thing that people haven't taken into consideration is that if space is expanding, that time itself is speeding up.

How do we measure time? Through the rotation and revolution of our planet around the sun or at the most advanced, the vibration of atomic structure and decay rate of unstable atoms. These aren't really measuring time though. These are measuring only what they are measuring. Time itself is woven into the fabric of spacetime and because we are existing within it, it is difficult if not impossible to objectively measure it. We can iductively reason however that since space/time may have been expanding since the beginning of space/time after the initial singularity, that time has been speeding up, so as space/time stretches more and more, it takes less time for the earth to rotate, even though to us it appears to take the same amount of time. Or does it.

I know that as we age, it appears that time moves faster and we have written that feeling off as just having lived longer, so relative to our lives it is much shorter, but what if it is a real factor and time has been speeding up.

If you look at things like radioactive decay rates, etc... it would make sense. as space is more compressed, time would move slower.

There have been recordings of past humans to have lived MUCH longer. If time was moving slower, that would make sense. The earth would've moved around the sun many more times in the equivalent period of time if time was moving slower.

Of course that means that eventually time will move so fast that nothing can survive in physical form.

It is best theorized that the universe is a sphere and eventually in an expanding universe, the material will curve back in on itself.

Is the universe going to not collapse, but all of the material eventually coallesce onto a singular point? return to the place of origin, or possibly create a new place of singularity???

All interesting questions, unfortunately, we have no where near the amount of observed knowledge to even make an educated guess and it is all conjecture. We know so little, and what so many think they know is constantly shown to be inaccurate.

Just remember this, the only historical scientific truth is that the current scientific paradigm is never currently accurate....

With that in mind, the more complex and substrated (built upon previous foundations) science becomes, the less likely we are to come to a greater level of truth. This is due to levels of inaccuracy becoming greater as you build on levels of inaccuracy.

For example. If you postulate that 2.131433 plus 4.233233 equals 3.364566 instead of 3.364666 like it actually does, that's not a big mistake.

NOw if you state that 2.131433 plus 4.233233 is the formula that gives you the DNA structure of a amoeba and you state that it equals 3.64566.

Then you create a formula that allows an amoeba to transform into a sexually reproducing animal that is 3.64566 cubed + a different formula (1.77555 + 8.44545) and you say that this equals 10.212 instead of 10.221. now you end up with 48.453872218073496+10.212=58.665872218073496 instead of 58.714755666560296.

Ok, so even that isn't that big a difference. Ok so let's now take that difference exponentially out 10 places. That's not a big stretch. Science has gone much farther than that to get to it's modern conclusions.

you end up with what should be 486936780122120171.28414753622902

but because of those slight errors you end up with 482897903069010350.13815036554309

well you're now into the realm of being off by 4000 trillion in your calculations.

So instead of getting to humans through DNA manipulations, you've got a mutant frog with eighty eyes, forty three point two legs and no skin.....

actually, DNA manipulations is a poor choice of example, because we're nowhere near to having any idea how DNA becomes manipulated over time or the limitations of DNA manipulation while still having a viable organism.

But the math illustration is EXACTLY what happens with science, that has been proven time and again inaccurate, when it is used to build a false foundation and gets more complex over time....

Thanks for all the great replies! Just to let everyone know, this article is from 1997! I saw that no one was talking about it on here so i thought i would share it.

Cool find. I wonder if they found any atlatl (spear throwers) along with the spears? As I understand it, it is theorized that modern man out competed neanderthal because of this invention, which gave them greater range and accuracy while hunting game with spears.

Atlatl

Old Zacharia Sitchin and Graham Hancock must be doing cart-wheels right about now!!! Good find, I love when people find stuff that totally flies in the face of the reality others are trying so desperately to push on us...Ii find that if you choose to believe in what FEELS right deep inside you will find yourself, more often then not, on the right side of most arguments.

Just Joe

Now THIS is a cool find! Great job OP with finding this!



reply to post by Masterjaden




One of the better posts I have read on ATS in a long while. Great analysis in there!


-Sliadon

reply to post by BeastMaster2012


Thanks for bringing this to our attention, here's a couple of other threads you might like

75- 100million year old hammer found- www.abovetopsecret.com...

Ancient anomalies- www.abovetopsecret.com...

apologies if you've already seen this stuff.

Also, there was another post that I can't find that was saying about a mineral thats formed through pressures deep below and techtonic plate movement, a sample had been found that was 4.1 billion years old. If this is correct then it gives way to the possibility that in that amount of time there could have been 23,000 civilisations come and go!!

Apparently there has been 2 UFO crashes where human bodies were recovered, what if, in the past the earth has gone through changes and humans that have been willing to work alongside aliens have been "taken to see god(s)" and saved.

Here's a film to watch, definitely worth a butchers!!- www.youtube.com...

Just a thought.

Peace out

reply to post by Aggie Man


I don't think that they did but i am not sure. I was watching a GREAT documentary called Incredible Human Journey - Part 5 America which i highly recommend and they talk about the atlatl. In this video they talk about the clovis people and a sight in texas that has hints of people in 14,500 years old, meaning people probably didn't come through the bearing straight

If you go to the 5 minute mark that is where they are talking about the atlatl use in America.

Originally posted by JustJoe
Old Zacharia Sitchin and Graham Hancock must be doing cart-wheels right about now!!! Good find, I love when people find stuff that totally flies in the face of the reality others are trying so desperately to push on us...Ii find that if you choose to believe in what FEELS right deep inside you will find yourself, more often then not, on the right side of most arguments.

Just Joe

Why would you think this?

It has long been known that H. Erectus was an excellent hunter.

There is nothing in this that "totally flies in the face of the reality others are trying so desperately to push on us." On the contrary, it is simply evidence that corroborates previously held theories about early humans.

And, what would this have to do with what one poster erroneously referred to as "Darwinism?"

There is no such thing as "Darwinism."

Harte

Humans have probably begun to devolve in many ways. How many people can make their own tools, hunt for food, start a fire, build a shelter or use herbs medicinally? I firmly believe many humans have begun to devolve this way. If left to their own devices how many would survive? Don't get me wrong their are still many who can, but our reliance on technology has left many in a state of not even having basic survival skills that neaderthals had. Food for thought.

[edit on 7-4-2010 by BrianInRI]

I forgot to add this to my original post.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/1804fdbbcfa42b4f.jpg[/atsimg]

This is Jambo and she is a great tool user! She is a 3 year old Chimpanzee that i watch and photograph at the Maryland Zoo in Baltimore. She is constantly exploring her world and you can see her here holding a large stick and swinging it around.

Chimpanzees are so smart and so human like it is unreal. The only thing they really lack is vocalizing skills. I am almost sure if they could speak to each other they would be a tribe of clothing wearing chimpers in the congo.

reply to post by BeastMaster2012


Nice one OP.

Shows once again, the 'experts' know bugger all really.

It's not really their fault i suppose, it's what they've been taught in Uni, by other experts that got it completely wrong.

The trouble is though, they form a theory, sack or withhold funding those that don't stick to their version of events, and then find they were completely wrong by 1000% in years.

The fact that Humans were clever up to half a million years ago, doesn't surprise me. I think it goes back a lot longer than that, in a cyclic way.

Rise, fall. Rise, fall. Probably around the time we complete one galactic revolution, every ~65 - 70 million years.

The really curious and interesting thing for me, is not what they've found, but what they haven't found, or at least, what they are not telling us they've found...human bones!

In settlement where there is extensive evidence of protracted human occupation (10,000's of large animal skeletons), there should be human skeletons too.

I wonder why we are not being told about those?