Wikileaks Trying to Release Yet More U.S. Military Footage

Before anyone posts one more opinion about the recently released video I urge them to checkmypetjawa.mu.nu...

This really should end any implied wrong doing by the chopper pilots involved here.

reply to post by bigbomb456

All you really know of the situation is from this short video. You don't know and cannot possibly know the entire situation. Instead of criticizing from your comfortable computer why don't you go over for a few months and find out from line reporting what is really happening. Find out if maybe just maybe you are missing a few bits of information. The mainstream media vilified our soldiers in Vietnam from images we later found out many had been manipulated. Why are you so EAGER to brand these young men and women as terrible?

sick, same old same old. guilty until proven innocent. sounds like trigger happy joe has no trouble sleeping at night."cant fire s%it, god damn! oh
it's ok fire fire fire ha ha look kind of cool straight through the windscreen"
the mentality is astounding and just plain wrong.

war is not pretty but this is almost portrayed as a good day hunting!

Appalling!

Makes Roger Waters 1994 song "The Bravery of Being out of Range" even that more true.

tinyurl .com / yhmj6ca



[edit on 4/7/2010 by Pluvious]

Originally posted by OverSword
Before anyone posts one more opinion about the recently released video I urge them to checkmypetjawa.mu.nu...

This really should end any implied wrong doing by the chopper pilots involved here.

I read that. The clip they have clearly shows a guy with an RPG.

I think for folks who are saying that people shouldn't bring their kids into a warzone, they may not understand that this is a neighborhood with families in it. They didn't choose to live in a warzone.

Stop making it sound like it's some place where everyone goes to fight. A fight springs up and the area becomes hostile. There are going to be bystanders.

I'm a believer in our military, but there are some people who shouldn't be in it. Mistakes will get made and when people try to cover them up, that's even worse than the original mistake that was made. If they'd just take the bad press up front and pay reparations to the families affected, the toll will add up and at a certain point, we're going to wonder why we're spending so much money on collateral damage.

We need to get out of there and give them back their country, good or bad...

reply to post by OverSword


I can understand that there might have been weapons there. that would give the gunner just cause to fire on the group the first time. I just seem to not understand why he fired on the van. He wouldn't fire on the guy when he was crawling around bleeding. But when some guy stopped to help a person about to die, they blew them apart. I worry that that is acceptable. I wasn't there, and I don't know the context, but what I saw was cold blooded murder. Care to point me somewhere that will fix that? I would be eternally grateful. I support and stand up for our solders every opportunity as I used to be one, but I have a real problem with that.

reply to post by network dude


I posted this in original thread here is an excerpt. The video link has analysis from a Retired General who my be a Pentagon shill but did address the van issue. Hope that helps.
=======================================================
Also if you believe the General (or Pentagon talking points?) he adds some context that this skirmish was part of a on-going battle. I must also agree the journalists were not wearing PRESS vests and the van was not easily identifiable as First Aid or Red Cross.

It is easy to second guess these "split-second" reactions in a war zone with the luxury of hindsight, repeated viewings and context.

www.liveleak.com...

I still have mixed reactions.

Got a couple things I want to say about the recently released video now that I've had a day and a half to think over it.

My initial feelings toward the video (watched the 17 min version 4 times and the 45min 2xs) have cooled. I never had a problem with the initial engagement but did have a problem w/ the van engagement. I still have a problem with the second engagement but don't think it violated any ROE or LOAC. I'm still pretty damn uncomfortable with that engagement. I didn't see anyone in the van with a weapon or picking up weapons. It's gritty, complex, and at very best morally ambiguous. That unfortunately is war, but we at home need to see what is being done in our name, so that we may determine if it is worth the cost. And we need to see more.

Kudo's to wikileaks for releasing it. Someone has to do real whistleblowing and journalism. The MSM doesn't do it anymore. I guess part of the shock value is the fact that well we don't see any of this unless we seek it out anymore. What they did show on CNN was so blacked out as to lose most of it's impact.

I do detect more of an editorial slant in this than anything else I've seen from them to date. All I have to point to is the inflammatory and judgmental "Collateral murder". However I do realize that the US Military doesn't like wikileaks and now that apparently wikileaks doesn't like the US Military. I can deal with a biased source as long as I know the bias ( this applies to US Military opinion of wikileaks as well). I would like to hear wikileaks response to the allegation that they have in their possession the unredacted pictures taken by the ground troops, if you watch the 45 min. tape you see the ground guys come up and take some pictures of the scene.

I do look forward to seeing any future releases from wikileaks.

There was segment on Icelandic Tv where they went to Iraq and talked to the family and kids of the Van driver.

They showed footage where some members of the family saw the video.

They talked to his son as well, he tried to explain that they were coming/going to their uncle but their father saw an injured man lying in the ground, he stopped to help him.

The girl doesn't remember much.

Absolutely heartbreaking... Utterly heartbreaking...

An Icelandic doctor looked at the medical reports for both kids,The boy had severe injuries , huge cut on his abdomen - but might recover better then the girl. The girl is worse off with a damaged skull, and conditions likely to trouble her in the future.

The kids were taken to an US forces hospital for the initial surgeries, but then dropped of at an Iraqi hospital the day after.

The widow now lives with relatives in poverty with no one to pay for the medical bills for the kids.

They also talked to some of the family members after they watched the video's.

One family member commented that this was only like 1% of the killing going on by American Forces.

The boy tried to say something but just cried and yes , he saw the video.

Another family member said when asked if he wanted to say anything to the gunner , simply replied ..."How would you feel if someone was doing this to your countrymen and family?"

He asked for Americans to wake up.



Let me see if I can bring the footage online somehow as I'm writing this up from memory.

reply to post by network dude


I've read alot on the original thread with the videos and this one, there seems to be some confusion as to why they would fire on the van when they came to help. The wounded guy would have been gathered up for interrogation (granted they seemed to be eager to off him before that could happen-if only he'd grab a stick or a rock or something so we would have a righteous shoot). Having no idea who was picking him up I could see the concern that it was fellow insurgents who would prevent them from that interrogation if the fled the scene with the only survivor. Not saying these were insurgents, just trying to rationalize the second engagement.

[edit on 7-4-2010 by PhyberDragon]

reply to post by PhyberDragon


Nice try but it was said best earlier: They are in a neighborhood. You don't shoot nice dressed men driving a family vehicle trying to save help someone seriously wounded on the street in a neighborhood.

Everything prior to the van is understandable but unsavory for many reasons. The callousness is unbelievable ----- The one guy was given props for being such a good shot ; when he answered it was an automatic a response.. like he was waiting for the acknowledgment in the same way someone shooting skeet would expect a compliment..

In better words, the complete disengagement from what just happened.
amazingly callous.

b

reply to post by Bspiracy

You have absolutely no idea what young men and women in combat are thinking. Especially when and after they shoot. What are they suppose to say? Don't you know their lives depend on them making a good shot. What is disgusting to me is how many people believe they actually know what these you people think and feel with their lives on the line as they sit behind their computers. How many of these soldiers have you talked to and actually found out FROM THEM what goes through their hearts and minds in war?

Do US pilots and gunners have regular eye tests? or is it the Leader board mentality?
I wonder if this is how so many blue on blue incidents occur.

"Those British squaddies are holding rifles!, your clear to engage!"
"6 down and 1 moving for his medic bag"
"NICE"

reply to post by rick1


a few quotes from the helicopter pilot during the massacre
"nice,
go ahead and pick up a weapon, thats all you hace to do,
HA HA right through the windshield"

& afterwards upon the discovery of two injured children

"WELL!!, IT'S THEIR FAULT FOR BRINGING CHILDREN TO A BATTLE"

The callous nature of the pilots thinking is on full display, so don't say that we are not entitled to judge or query because we "DON'T KNOW" what they are thinking about before or after!

reply to post by antonia


I was unable to find that report. If you could reference it I would appreciate it. I did however find this govt. report.
www.wired.com...
Thanks

reply to post by Rising Against

I need some clarification here. Are you actually trying to tell us that during a war that one side dropped a bomb? A BOMB? Do you think this could be a hoax? I mean who would drop a bomb while fighting a war?
THOUGHTS

reply to post by butcherguy

Why wait to see the video? Everyone has already made up their mind. This is not an investigation into wrong doing by the military it is a witch hunt. It is disgusting and disgraceful. This is worse than a case of guilty until proven innocent. Before the video has come out their guilty and by God anybody who thinks otherwise is one sick bas&&rd.
All I have to say is starting today I will say a prayer everyday that if I or any member of my family should ever get in trouble for ANY REASON that none of you will be on the jury.

reply to post by MikeboydUS

These kinds of incidents and friendly fire need to be eliminated. Better training and better equipment will help with this.

Mike, no amount of training is going to help when you are attempting to deal with a mix of civilians and unknown operatives from a mile and a quarter away with massive guns and artillery.

Can you insert a thumbtack with a jackhammer, no matter how well trained?

The fact is that there is a hugely lopsided arrangement here, with the massively equipped US military on one side against small bands of insurgents with hand held weaponry mixed in with civilians on the other. How can this ever be a clean or fair fight?

No amount of training will eliminate this kind of thing from happening. The logistics simply won't allow for it.

You guys just need to get out of there and don't go anywhere else either unless its a fair fight. It's notable though, that you haven't picked a fight with an equal opponent in a long time -- not since WW2 IMO.

No, its US policy to use this kind of heavy artillery in a setting and arena where it is totally inappropriate, death of civilians and destruction of their homes, towns and cities be damned.

reply to post by rick1


Rick1, I can understand your position. I have never been in a combat situation, and therefore have no idea what goes through the mind of someone just before they take a human life. I also understand that in war, bad things happen, and most people would be outraged if they really knew. It's best they don't in some cases. But since this video did make it out, and we all witnessed the van being destroyed and the good Samaritans being blown apart, we as arm chair quarterbacks will ask why. As I have said, my biggest worry is that this is common. It shouldn't be. From a human standpoint, there should never be a justified killing of someone attempting to render aid. War in and of itself is ignorant, but until our leaders grow brains instead of balls, we will have this kind of thing to discuss. based on your position I assume you are active or have been. Thank you for your service.