Debate With a Soldier - Very Pertinant To WikiLeaks Video

reply to post by endisnighe


Although following different paths, I do agree completely with you.

And honestly, this is a diamond right here:

We do hear about the Idol tournament though.

I am sorry, I am just getting sick and tired of continuous war. We have been at war since frelling Korea.

It's so true that is shocking. Nobody tries to change it, yet everyone complains and points fingers, and care more about TV shows than they do with real problems.

Star for that.

reply to post by Tifozi


lets have a look at what has happened thanks to wikipedia the difference between what we were and what we have become because of a selected few

the republic what we were

A republic is a type of government where the citizens choose their leaders of their country [1] and the people (or at least a part of its people)[2] have an impact on its government.[3][4] The word "republic" is derived from the Latin phrase res publica, which can be translated as "a public affair".

Both modern and ancient republics vary widely in their ideology and composition. The most common definition of a republic is a state without a monarch.[5] In republics such as the United States and France the executive is legitimated both by a constitution and by popular suffrage. In the United States, James Madison defined republic in terms of representative democracy as opposed to direct democracy[6], and this usage is still employed by many viewing themselves as "republicans".[7] In modern political science, republicanism refers to a specific ideology that is based on civic virtue and is considered distinct from ideologies such as liberalism.[

what we are now

Democracy is a political government carried out either directly by the people (direct democracy) or by means of elected representatives of the people (Representative democracy). The term is derived from the Greek: δημοκρατία - (dēmokratía) "rule of the people",[1] which was coined from δῆμος (dêmos) "people" and κράτος (krátos) "power", in the middle of the fifth-fourth century BC to denote the political systems then existing in some Greek city-states, notably Athens following a popular uprising in 508 BC.[2] Even though there is no specific, universally accepted definition of 'democracy',[3] there are two principles that any definition of democracy includes: equality and freedom.[4][dubious – discuss] These principles are reflected in all citizens being equal before the law and having equal access to power.[5] and the freedom of its citizens is secured by legitimized rights and liberties which are generally protected by a constitution.[6][7]

There are several varieties of democracy, some of which provide better representation and more freedoms for their citizens than others.[8][9] However, if any democracy is not carefully legislated – through the use of balances – to avoid an uneven distribution of political power, such as the separation of powers, then a branch of the system of rule could accumulate power and become harmful to the democracy itself.[10][11][12]

The "majority rule" is often described as a characteristic feature of democracy, but without responsible government or constitutional protections of individual liberties from democratic power, it is possible for dissenting individuals to be oppressed by the "tyranny of the majority". An essential process in representative democracies is competitive elections, that are fair both substantively[13] and procedurally.[14] Furthermore, freedom of political expression, freedom of speech and freedom of the press are essential so that citizens are informed and able to vote in their personal interests

so when you spout off about what you think take a minute and realize the troops are not our enemy the select few who send our young men and women in to fruitless battles are

reply to post by WhiteDevil013


I really need to ask you this...



...have you read anything I said? Or you just replied to the wrong post?

reply to post by thotrong


Here, have a reading:

Originally posted by Tifozi
Before thinking this:

The soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are cleaning up the mess and profit of people like Dick Cheney and George W. Bush.

Think of this:

The soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan that die and fight over there, are part of the real situation. A situation where are guys like Spec Ops and other operatives doing real job in keeping the real world safe.

Soldiers, that are over there, DYING and FIGHTING, LOOSING THEIR MINDS, are really over there, because I (inserted yourself in here, regarding your position on this subject) was a MORON and can't vote in the right people to be in power.

OBAMA said on his early campaing that he was going to remove troops from Iraq to reinforce the troops in Afghanistan.

Now geniuses of anti-war, tell me, who won the elections?

YOU HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO CHANGE IT! YOU HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO END IT!

What did you say? "Yes we can".

But you still let young boys die.

RESPECT THEM!

---

Originally posted by Tifozi

Do not blame others for the decisions you make. Your reality, and the consequences of YOUR decisions will ultimately rest on YOUR conscience alone. Of course, others may die as a result of your actions.

It's easier to blame the soldiers than to take the responsibility for being so ignorant when voting people to control the soldiers, isn't it?

---

Originally posted by Tifozi
reply to post by slank

 

If i were speaking German it would be BECAUSE of soldiers, German soldiers.

So your point is WHAT?

My point is that it's up to the citizens to choose wisely who they put in power.

THAT'S the difference between saving the World from the Nazi, or being the Nazi.

Get it? The soldiers are just pawns.

Ignorant insults against soldiers is nothing but pathetic.

---

Originally posted by Tifozi
reply to post by slank

 

AND when 'support the troops' is a phrase used to cover up a bad, obscene or war criminal policy, One does what one needs to do, that is the ADULT way.

The adult way? The adult way is using reason, logic and good sense.

Bashing the troops, just because you disagree with your government, is as childish as can be. You think too high of yourself.

If a US troop stands between me & his criminal commander then i will go around him or straight through him if he stands in the way.

Criminal commander? You mean the one you elected?

Keep going. I'm loving to see you finding excuses and people to point the finger at, instead of assuming your own responsibility as a citizen.

(...)

That is why it is essential that militaries be under civilian control,
& that civilian populations not be spun by Pentagon type propaganda which is i believe illegal in this nation.

That's why it's important to vote for the right people to be in power, so the President in power knows how to apply his military.

Which, clearly, isn't the case.

[end of quotations]

so when you spout off about what you think take a minute and realize the troops are not our enemy the select few who send our young men and women in to fruitless battles are

So now please, look at the quotes of my very own posts, and tell me from where did you picked up the conclusion that I was attacking the troops, and not the government.

[edit on 6/4/10 by Tifozi]

Originally posted by endisnighe


I am sorry, I am just getting sick and tired of continuous war. We have been at war since frelling Korea.

God Bless and Peace.

I'm with you my friend.

[edit on 6-4-2010 by stmichael]

I know that I'll probably get flamed for this, but, has anyone really thought that this is why the generally accepted rules of war prohibit combatants from dressing as and hiding amongst civilians.

I've watched the video and had my reservations about some of the actions of "our side", but in context to what was going on in that area at the time I can see it happening.

I really think that if we wanted to end wars altogether, our leaders should have to show up and help "clean up" the bodies.

No one expected George W. Bush to get us out of Iraq.
Barack Obama campaigned on getting us out of Iraq.

We are still there.

There are MORE troops in Afganistan.

Why?

I genuinely think that many soldiers have been deliberately mislead. Lots of people believed that there were WMDs at the beginning of the war. We were lead astray as much as they have been. Now it seems it was just a lie.

reply to post by seeashrink


Thank you. You're an admirable man.

Many here seem to think those desiring peace and freedom have no idea of the cost. I hope I do.

Wasn't the freedom I appreciate so deeply bought by the citizen soldier? Those forced by circumstance to defend all they love. The common man who left behind his daily life to defend his home. The citizen soldier.

Now, it seems, there is a new type of American soldier. Those who espouse the even older idea that soldiering results in citizenship. Those that choose to serve and demand respect for that choice. Respect beyond that for the common man. The respect afforded the warrior class.

If our freedom is in jeopardy, return the draft. Let no man defer his duty, leaving the poor to do it in his stead. Reward those who fulfill their duty without using the chance at an education to entice those with few options. Outlaw the mercenary whose only duty is to his reward.

Return to the citizen soldier.

Perhaps in the eyes of an ignorant onlooker from another country...Sure those American Soldiers are representing EVERY American.

But come' on anyone with half a brain , living in China/Russia/Canada/heck even Iraq would know that not EVERY American is for this war.

Not every American Voted for Obama, or even thier local congressman.

I'm AGAINST this war, so NO ,those Solidiers wearing AMERICAN Uniforms don't represent ME, or MY beliefs, sorry.

And anyone with half a clue who is isn't American would know there are a GREAT deal of Americans who are against this garbage as well.

Just as you'd be terribly ignorant to think that ALL the people in Germany believed in Hitlers war practices and the SS. Just because they were living in Germany?(ask the German living jews how they liked Hitlers reign).

To think all those soldiers wearing German Uniforms were representing each and every person who lived in Germany at the time....please.



That type of thinking is extremely ignorant imo. We need to get past THIS EXACT type of Stereotyping before we as a world will ever have peace.

Maybe we need to form a "One World Peoples Government" to fight against this "One World Government, or New World Order or what have you".

Because haveing the few control the many is just sheer insanity. But they do it by preying on the ignorance of this thinking that "Oh a guy in an American uni shot my brother, therefor I HATE ALL AMERICANS. That's part of thier plan don't you see?



[edit on 6-4-2010 by Nola213]

reply to post by 23refugee



Thank you Sir. Well said. I completely agree with your thoughts. Those were the attitudes of our grandfathers and they no longer exist.
Seeashrink

reply to post by ModernAcademia


GREAT find, and I completely agree with the sentiment. It's funny because I did get into a tussle with other people on a facebook poll for a similar situation. The poll was ridiculously vague when asked "Are american soldiers heroes" I simply stated no, because heroism is something that is earned, and not given away the moment you put on a uniform. When I tried to explain that it takes more than wearing camo and carrying a gun to be a hero, heroism is determined by DEEDS and not a uniform. I got every so called "patriot" jumping down my throat.

Funny thing is, on that poll, there were several people who were law enforcement, military, and whatnot, that also agreed with me, and yet they didn't receive the same kind of scathing remarks I did. On a related note, I have had several friends and acquaintances that have told me dead serious that if they could go back and do it again, they probably wouldn't, one outright admitted that the war was all for profit and a political agenda and nothing else.

Originally posted by yak055h
*******************************************************
I can agree your post with one exception; the uniform may belong to you but it passes to you through the people that you, or we, elected to have the military do their, or our, bidding. The uniform has your name on it only in the form of the American flag. If your wishes are not being honored don't debate the soldier, debate your the representative. On every base and outpost in the world there is a chain of command posted on the wall in HQ. The top of the chain of command is not a picture of you but of the Commander in Chief that you/we/they elected.

Please don't debate with the person at the bottom of that chain of command while YELLING, as YOUR post SHOWS, but debate with the one at the top which you will probably find a little tougher that launching on the soldier doing the bidding of your President.

Peace...........yak055h

I always hated responses like yours, because they reek of "pass the buck and have someone else be responsible". As has already been stated, if what you say were true and it actually worked, we would be living in a more perfect world, were our so called "leaders" actually listened to the wishes of its constituents, but we don't!

If we did live in that america, then the $700 billion dollar stimulus would never had passed and banks would've dealt with the consequences of their bad business practices. But guess what? it didn't happen, it passed despite the wishes of (I believe) 90% of the population. The patriot act 1 and 2 would've never passed because our leaders would've respected our wishes, as well as the constitutional right of privacy, but they didn't! The healthcare debate would've turned out into a bill for REAL reform, and not the monstrosity we have now, but guess what? You guessed it, it didn't! and I can go on and on!. Our system has been corrupted beyond repair and the odds are ALWAYS stacked against the people, so unfortunately, we can't do as you ask, and even if we do, chances are we will never be listened to. Oh sure, we might get a whole "smile and nod" act, but we will never be listened to.

Originally posted by seeashrink
reply to post by 23refugee

 

Those were the attitudes of our grandfathers and they no longer exist.
Seeashrink

I hear those values taught to the grandchildren at my parents' knee, just as I was taught. Those values do exist. Hopefully, a silent majority shares them.

reply to post by Tifozi


First of all, I'd like to apologize for jumping in. I'd like to also reassure you that I've read your posts, in their entirety.

Originally posted by Tifozi
reply to post by WarloriousCreed

 

I'm not american, so I have a very abroad perspective of how the US handles things, without being emotionally attached to the subjects.

You seem to be saying that your distance implies less emotional attachment and therefor better judgement and more discernment. That's the precise argument/justification that many put forth when they speak negatively of the actions of soldiers within these wars. You lambast them for this because they 'aren't there, so they don't know.' Well, you aren't here, so you don't know. I find this logic circular, and hypocritical.

Originally posted by TifoziAnother thing that I stated is that I don't enjoy clichés, and I don't enjoy being answered back with post-formatted answers.

I apologize for my bluntness here, but please see your own answer above. Pot/kettle. Once again. Also, this statement alone (and you have made a few like this) makes me wonder about your claim of 'lack of emotional attachment.' I wonder about a quasi-contained anti-american sentiment. But I could be wrong.

Originally posted by Tifozi
You, my friend, should be able to recognize the line that I draw on the floor, between respect for the soldiers that actually fight to keep our world a better place, and the situation that is in our current world, where we have two major BS... ... BS MEANS BULL-#) wars.

Furthermore, I'm talking about a minority of soldiers, not the whole pack.

But sadly, because of discussions like this, people don't know about the small operations in the world, to keep peace and restore a little more safety.

They only know about crappy arguments and thematic youtube videos.

Sure. I feel that disrespecting all soldiers as a group is wrong. Many of them are good people trying to survive and doing a very hard job. I don't doubt there are 'bad people' out there, that they are helping to protect me from. I am grateful.

Also, (because you have touched on this) individual intent matters, but it isn't everything. If an individual soldier is crossing a line, or even a group of soldiers, than they should be held accountable. All of the good intentions in the world cannot justify certain actions. (The old addage about the 'road to hell' and what it is paved with comes to mind.) However, judging all of them based on the answers, and actions of a few is wrong.

I think the OP was correct in his points, and correct in publicly calling out that individual soldier.

As far as the 'line that you draw' you seem to be saying that any criticism of an individual soldier or group is wrong, even when they (soldiers/military) are wrong. I don't feel that calling out bad behavior, and reminding individuals (U.S military, mind) that they do represent us, hurts any military efforts, or the military as a whole. Soldiers do a hard job. This doesn't make them above accountability or criticism. Even from civilians, and you seem to be saying just that.

If I misunderstand, I apologize, and please explain. If I don't... Your line isn't mine. You speak of respect, but don't really seem to have much respect for the lines and ideas of others that are not compatable with your own. At least not regarding these circumstances.

You have some good points. So does the OP. I actually agree with both of you, as well as disagree.

However the hypocrisy you manifest, and your emotionally charged, thinly veiled contempt causes me to doubt your credibility over all.

The whole 'fighting for your freedom' was true in WW2 and heck even the Vietnam War.. but not anymore.

Poor naive fools.

109 flags on a completely scripted second hand blog. What the hell has happened to ATS?

I think Ill take a few days vacation from the ignorance and readiness to agree with uhm hold wait, it never said who. It just says some guy told some guy who then told a blogger. . . .

Since when did hearsay earn you 109 flags on ATS?

Deny Ignorance my left buttock. I don't know if i should laugh at the ignorance or vomit over the sheer stupidity of it all

Originally posted by constantwonder
109 flags on a completely scripted second hand blog. What the hell has happened to ATS?

I think Ill take a few days vacation from the ignorance and readiness to agree with uhm hold wait, it never said who. It just says some guy told some guy who then told a blogger. . . .

Since when did hearsay earn you 109 flags on ATS?

Deny Ignorance my left buttock. I don't know if i should laugh at the ignorance or vomit over the sheer stupidity of it all

What's so hard to believe about a soldier ignorant to what his true 'role'

I too do not believe my freedom is being fought for, and I actually think our misguided troops are endangering my freedom. I stated this fact at work today during lunch. They are preparing a cross outside so they can nail me to it as punishment for my words. It takes a real man to stand up to an Army supported by warmongers. Stand up and be real, men.