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Pope's immunity could be challenged in Britain

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posted on Apr, 5 2010 @ 08:20 AM
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Originally posted by TrueBrit
But on the subject of the pope, theres no and I mean literaly ZERO proof that he had anything at all to do with a cover up .


That doesn't mean that the evidence doesn't exist. For as many years as Catholic priests have been accused of child molestation, it's not entirely unreasonable to assume that everyone in positions of authority in the Catholic church is aware of them and at the very least looked the other way when those priests were moved to different areas to get them away from the allegations. It's possible that the Pope and upper levels weren't aware of what the lower levels were doing, but it's also possible that they were.

If he was aware of what's been going on and has done nothing to stop it, then he should be held accountable. People who sexually abuse children are vile enough, people who allow it to happen and do nothing to prevent it are worse in my book. Even if they happen to be Pope.

I had to look it up, but Britain has vicarious liability laws. (I knew the US did and suspected Britain did as well but I made sure before typing this.) Essentially what it boils down to is that an employer can be held responsible for the actions of their employees if those actions happen in the course of their duties and that those duties are closely linked to the abuse.

There was a case in Canada in 2004 where the bishops were ultimately held responsible for the actions of a priest who sexually abused children because they did not take steps to remove him after being told about what he was doing. Instead they moved him to a different parish. Granted that was Canada and not Britain, but it does show that there is a precedent for holding upper levels of the church responsible for the actions of priests.




posted on Apr, 5 2010 @ 08:38 AM
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Originally posted by Jenna



There have been many claims and articles over the years about priests being relocated to different areas when they were accused of child abuse, which would certainly suggest that someone at least a level above them in the hierarchy was aware of and covering up their actions.


It was just announced a few days ago that U.S. Bishops are quietly reinstating accused priests.

Here is the info: www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Apr, 5 2010 @ 08:41 AM
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kul, would be good to prosecute the pope , what is he different from other pedophiles ?



posted on Apr, 5 2010 @ 08:42 AM
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Countries with large Catholic populations need to start criminal investigations into the obvious criminal obstruction that has taken place for decades by church leadership - including the Pope.

The pope can claim that he's immune to prosecution, but his organization (the church) sure isn't. They own $BILLIONS in real estate around the world, and I'm sure they would notice if the property was seized to pay off child abuse claims.



posted on Apr, 5 2010 @ 08:44 AM
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Originally posted by Laurauk
reply to post by Peruvianmonk
 


Not in Scotland he will not, alot are gearing up for his visit with anticipation. The only place where one thinks he will receive protests, is when he visits the palace of wesminster. And anyway do you really think the UK Government, would allow his arrest to happen? No they would not. He is head of a Sovereign State. So has Immunity from arrest.


I'm definately no fan of the pope, but hasn't scotland got its own paedophile ring that needs to be brought to justice? Before targeting the pope, remember The Hollie Greig case is still out there with no one brought to justice, so maybe we should start with the paedophiles within the british establishment first?



posted on Apr, 5 2010 @ 09:13 AM
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Without knowing the ins and outs of law i cant really say if arrest is possible but i do think it is a very effective method of evolving the culpability meme by suggesting the Pope should be arrested.

We know that the 'powers that be' can derail any investigation, create new news stories to distract the populace, ignore these crimes etc, etc and so it remains with us to do what we can and in this case talking about arresting the Pope, demonstrating when he arrives in the UK etc are very useful. The more it is discussed, the more chance the message will get through.



posted on Apr, 5 2010 @ 09:16 AM
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Send the pope, on over to the Northern Ireland. I'm sure he'll be made very welcome on the Shankill Road, Belfast
or any loyalist town/area for that matter. The pope, and whoever's with him would be swinging from the lamp-posts, skinned alive and if he's lucky, it might be a quick death. Im sure they even have a lamp-post marked out for G.W.Bush too.

Personally, I think anyone who's worked/work's for the vatican should be hung for crimes against humanity and not just the vatican. All people, involved in high places, not just religious.

I'm sure an uptodate Cromwell, will turn up at Buckingham palace and Parliament in the end days, when the whole world goes to s##t to do what he does best. To make the crowds cheer at violence and death of the so called elite.



posted on Apr, 5 2010 @ 09:27 AM
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reply to post by Jenna
 


It a an important step forward, even if they are unable to motivate world opnion, to be able to hold world leaders responsible for their actions. The real difficulty will be making this stick as a law because it has global consequences. It is interesting because all of our children are at stake; what better cause could there be?

I think if these lawyers are actually successful (which is a big if right now) then that will be enough to bring the Catholic Hierarchy down like a pile of rotten boards - for I believe this kind of endemic institutionalized abuse must go all the way to the top. It can t be otherwise. but if that did happen the Church would revert to a grass roots level and potentially become much healthier.



posted on Apr, 5 2010 @ 10:07 AM
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reply to post by liquidself
 


The more I think about it, the more I have to agree that this might be enough to bring the Catholic church to it's knees if the Pope ends up being held responsible. It may not completely destroy it, but the church would suffer a massive blow I'm not sure it would ever fully recover from.

At the same time, I'm not sure that he will be held accountable. The Catholic church is powerful. More powerful than any church should be, if you ask me. They have the money and the power to make this go away if they really want to. If that happens I don't see the cases of abuse going away, I just see them getting covered up better and that actually scares me a bit.

The actions of the priests fit the standards of a crime against humanity as far as I can tell since they have been tolerated by the church's leadership. That in itself should give an international court jurisdiction. At the very least the Catholic church itself should be held responsible for their actions through vicarious liability.



posted on Apr, 5 2010 @ 10:27 AM
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No one should be above justice and yet the Pope, along with other religious figures cannot be touched. Why religious people have such protection in this day and age i am not sure, especially when they are often the first people baying for blood when someone offends their beliefs.

The UK government will block any attempt at prosecution i think, because to arrest the Pope means angering 1 billion catholics. Would any country want to do that?



posted on Apr, 5 2010 @ 10:48 AM
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The witch-hunt like fascination with catching pedophiles appears second only to reality TV addiction in the UK.

If only someone would point out to them the fact that the Islamic faith openly countenances the sale of pre-teen girls into marriage then we could really have some fun.

The British always back down in the face of violence, hence the disparity of treatment between the 2 faiths.



posted on Apr, 5 2010 @ 10:51 AM
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Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
The UK government will block any attempt at prosecution i think, because to arrest the Pope means angering 1 billion catholics. Would any country want to do that?


From what I've read, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, the only reason the arrest warrant for the Israeli Prime Minister was canceled is because they weren't in Britain when it was issued. If British courts are willing to issue an arrest warrant for a Prime Minister of another country, why not a religious leader? If they were willing to risk the anger of the entire population of Israel (around 7 million if the numbers I've seen are correct) as well as supporters of Israel from around the world, then what's 1 billion Catholics? There aren't any figures for the number of people who support Israel and would be ticked off if their Prime Minister was arrested on a warrant for war crimes, but I'd imagine it's at least 1 billion worldwide.



posted on Apr, 5 2010 @ 10:55 AM
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Originally posted by Retseh
If only someone would point out to them the fact that the Islamic faith openly countenances the sale of pre-teen girls into marriage then we could really have some fun.


Two wrongs do not make a right. The approval of selling children into marriage in one religion does not make members of another religion molesting children any better. Both are instances of children being irrevocably harmed. They're both equal on the scale of evil if you ask me.



posted on Apr, 5 2010 @ 11:00 AM
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reply to post by Laurauk
 


I concur. This thread is a paradise for those who (for whatever reason) dislike to Pope and the Church he represents and leads.

The tragedy of paedophile priests and the huge upwelling of sympathy for the victims has cast a shadow on the Catholic Church, especially their inability to accept responsibility at the time for what was going on and to act promptly to resolve and prevent. The Pope may be part of the problem as his Church has been found wanting, but he is also part of the solution.

I think the Pope needs to be judged by the actions he takes to resolve this problem. He is not personally guilty.

Regards



posted on Apr, 5 2010 @ 11:20 AM
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reply to post by Laurauk
 


He may be head of a sovereign state, but that state is wholly religious, not governmental. There HAS to be a legal precedent for that.

A good way to keep the ball rolling on this would be class action lawsuits on a worldwide scale country by country. Lawyers are out to make money right? Get some good, solid cases against the catholic church, that, literally, has more money than God, start winning a few, make the monetary judgements known, and see how fast the whole thing snowballs with lawyers leading the parade.

All the while, don't sweep ANY OF IT under the carpet. If the church wants to start settling out of court, let that be public knowlege also. Put case by case winnings on pamplets and distribute them door to door in your community if you have to, if the press doesn't have the balls or intestinal fortitude to do it. Post every bit of verifiable information you get your hands on on every applicable web site or blog site or discussion forum you can think of.



Peace




posted on Apr, 5 2010 @ 11:44 AM
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reply to post by paraphi
 


It has been proven that the pope, while cardinal, transferred bishops to other churches AFTER learning of their "sexual transgressions". The only reason he did that was in the hopes that people would think that the problem went away. It didn't go away, it got transferred to another church where the molestations more than likely continued.

He IS accountable for his actions because he knew EXACTLY what his actions were. It has been PROVEN.

For the record, I have no problem with the rc church. What I DO have a problem with however is "men" who disguise themselves as priests and spiritual leaders and use that position to gain access to young boys for sexual reasons. That's not only a betrayel of trust [ moral rape if you will ] but a betrayel of faith [ spiritual rape ]I have a problem with grown adults who see nothing wrong with this because it is happening within the confines of what is arguably the richest and most influential religious organization in the world. I also have a problem with people who think that nothing can be done about it for the same reasons.

But mainly, I have a problem with arrogent pricks who think they can get away with this because they believe they are more powerful then we are and therefore untouchable.

The one's in this "church"who commited these horrendous crimes against children should be held accountable for their actions just as your next door neighbor should if he commited the same crimes.

We all bleed red and we all die in the end. We're all the same.



Peace




posted on Apr, 6 2010 @ 06:29 AM
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im sorry but, What!

Forgetting the fact that he is the head of a sovereign 'country within a country'

he is the pope, the spiritual leader of the largest faith on planet earth, and successor to Saint Paul who was first given the job by Jesus itself,

There are no grounds to arrest the pope, fair enough a few (out of the thousands upon thousands) of priests have acted up in a very bad way and deserve to be punished by human law and god himself, but to even suggest something like that (arresting) about the pope is ridiculous and most likely very damaging to which ever country would dare to suggest it



posted on Apr, 6 2010 @ 07:07 AM
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Originally posted by TrueBrit

But on the subject of the pope, theres no and I mean literaly ZERO proof that he had anything at all to do with a cover up . Until there is some evidence, there is no point in an arrest. Its just asking for trouble.


That's just not true.

In 1962 the Vatican formulated a policy on the crime of "solicitation" which was enforced by one Cardinal Ratzinger.
Crime Sollicitationis


The 39-page document, titled in Latin Crimen Sollicitationis, was issued in March 1962 by the Holy Office (today the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith). It established a procedure for canonical cases in which priests were accused of abusing the confessional to sexually proposition penitents. Four concluding paragraphs extend the procedure to the crimen pessimum, or "worst crime," meaning homosexual acts contrary to a priest's celibate commitment. The document was not designed to address sexual abuse of minors, but would include many such violations.

Paragraph 11 of the document stipulates that such cases are covered by the "secret of the Holy Office," today known as pontifical secrecy, the strictest form of secrecy in church law. Excommunication is prescribed for anyone who violates this secrecy.

The document was itself to be kept secret. Instructions on Page One direct that it be stored in the secret archives of each diocese, and that it not be published or commented upon. Msgr. Thomas Green, canon law expert at The Catholic University of America, told NCR Aug. 4 that unlike most church legislation, Crimen Sollicitationis was never published in the official Vatican bulletin Acta Apostolicae Sedis.

The document recently came to light because it was referenced in a footnote to a May 18, 2002, letter from Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, head of the Vatican's doctrinal congregation, to the bishops of the world regarding new procedures for sex abuse cases.

source

In other words, the pope has known for nearly 50 years, and as such has been instrumental in the covering up of abuse.

The attempts at keeping secret the abuse of innocents even lead to the sacking of Canon lawyers when they dared to questiob the church's handling of such crimes:

Crimen solicitationis is indicative of a worldwide policy of absolute secrecy and control of all cases of sexual abuse by the clergy.

But what you really have here is an explicit written policy to cover up cases of child sexual abuse by the clergy to punish those who would call attention to these crimes by the churchmen.

You've got a written policy that says that the Vatican will control these situations and you also have I think clear written evidence of the fact that all they are concerned about is containing and controlling the problem.

Nowhere in any of these documents does it say anything about helping the victims.

The only thing it does is say that they can impose fear on the victims and punish the victims for discussing or disclosing what happened to them.

It's all controlled by the Vatican and at the top of the Vatican is the Pope so Joseph Ratzinger was in the middle of this for most of the years that Crimens was enforced he created the successor to Crimen and now he is the Pope this all says that the policy and systematic approach has not changed.

Cardinal Ratzinger, now as Pope, could tomorrow get up and say: 'Here's the policy: full disclosure to the civil authorities, absolute isolation and dismissal of any accused and proven and convicted clerics, complete openness and transparency, complete openness of all financial situations, stop all barriers to the legal process and completely co-operate with the civil authorities everywhere.'

source

That all seems pretty clear to me.



posted on Apr, 6 2010 @ 07:09 AM
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reply to post by AmmonSeth
 


Old Pope Benny was actively engaged in covering up abuses before he became the big cheese. He is in this abuse up to his eyeballs, perhaps not as an abuser himself, but guilty of abetting the abusers in avoiding prosecution and deserved jail time. That makes him an accomplice and as guilty as those who comitted the crimes.
The damage limitation going on is geared towards protecting the church at all costs, not routing out this evil or showing any sympathy for the abused. That too should be enough to disgust any sane human.



posted on Apr, 6 2010 @ 07:16 AM
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Originally posted by krunchy
Countries with large Catholic populations need to start criminal investigations into the obvious criminal obstruction that has taken place for decades by church leadership - including the Pope.


Yeah, but it's not only Catholics, the others are in on it too.


Originally posted by Alethea
It was just announced a few days ago that U.S. Bishops are quietly reinstating accused priests.


At least they're only accused. Just over a month ago, there was this case where the Anglican church here reinstated a convicted one after he got out of prison. And yeah, he did it again.

Wilfred Edwin Dennis

People will get the big picture soon...



[edit on 6/4/10 by NuclearPaul]



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