Abuse hotline set up by Catholic Church in Germany melts down

So I normally stay clear of threads about the C church, as I don't trust myself to not slip into personal history and get overly passionate and therefore fall for the baiter's or trolls as they are called in the internet world, but I've happened upon this thread early enough (pre trolls as far as I've read ), that I feel I can state my opinion and experience and then leave the thread and get on with my post catholic (baptism and upbringing ....NOT ever from day of birth my belief!) life....angst,stress and indoctrination FREE.
It does not at all surprise me it is this wide spread,only someone not dragged up under catholic home and schooling could be surprised.
Two of my personal experiences;
1) age 10,riding on a tractor cutting hay with the 17 year old son of the farmer,
get offered 20p to take off my top(in the barn next day) .Told by him he does it with lots of young girls(mentioned some names ,people I knew) and that some of them stripped all the way and let him touch them.Me being ten,and not understanding anything or knowing about sex,asked my older sis that night should I do it.
Told NO (NO REASONING GIVEN) so I listened and told him no and not had anything to do with him after that.Important to note that without her advice ,I would probably have gone along with him,as it meant nothing to me but I thought how cool to have my own money, and not be reliant on pocket money.
Move on 15 years later and in an aside my mother mentions to me (with pride because we were neighbours) that he had been made a priest.
I internally barfed but said nothing as she is as indoctrinated as a catholic can be and I would have been called a liar.Yes, my own mother puts church before family,and may I stress church, that is where my parents loyalty lay, "God" was only part of the equation, it was all about the church for them.
2) Early in high school ,we had sister rosemary (dominican convent) who used to do a regular check for name tags on skirts by making her form (I was in another class) lift their skirts high so she could check.She was known for it,and although in those days we were all too young to know about lesbians we all knew that the only reason she did it was for private kicks.
She also was overly "motherly" in touching the girls.
I could go on and on about things I've witnessed, helped, friends family recover from (abuse by the C church and its followers), but I won't.
It would take me too long.
Oh , one more, just while I'm recalling,
My best mate (while in high school) went to the jesuits.( I refuse to give them a capital J !)
They used to talk about a teacher (monk or priest?) who used to sit the new to high school (post primary) kids on his lap during class and feel them up.
They were new and bewildered anyway so put up least of a fuss as they tried to understand the new level of schooling and fit in.
No this is not hearsay,he tried it on with all of them-my friends when younger as well.
Now can you just imagine if people like me added into the fray giving our experiences to the commissions investigating how much even MORE widespread it would appear to be ?
Catholic church ? = one huge ungodly FAIL.
That's all I have to add here,might lurk on this thread in a few days,
but probably not comment again here.
It is what it is.
Believe it.
All I have to say.

But I am baffled, as to why these folk in Germany would ring a CHURCH hotline to reveal and seek help?
Why on earth didn't they go to an independent authority?!
That's like asking a rapist to save you from rapists really.

Originally posted by Kaytagg
One wonders why anybody would believe in supernaturalism or join a church, in the 21st century, at all.

ummmmm, can you clarify what you mean by supernaturalism ?
If you mean the paranormal,or human sense of spirit , then you are popping apples into a basket with a cauliflower imo.
Very little to do with spirit and our higher selves is the RC church.

So yeah, i just commented again
anyways, cheers for OP , important topic.

reply to post by jackflap


The pope is head of the catholic church and no other denomianation of christianity.

In the US only 22% of chirstians are catholic. If you remember all of the allegations of the late 90s early 2000s they got beat up pretty bad in the media and rightfully so.

In Europe your looking at some 65% of christians who follow catholic teaching. So one has to wonder if 22% of the practicing catholics could cause such a storm and media blitz over there one would have to think Europe would be far worse.

America took a huge slam from Europe when the scandel hit over there. I wonder if Europe will will get as much. They both of course deserve every bit of of ridicule as they deserve as far as the coverups and sick behavior. Its when they lump catholics and christians as a whole does it start to leave a bad taste in peoples mouth.

Just disgusting humans doing disgusting things. No different than anything else sad to say.


Edit to fix my horrible typing.
[edit on 4-4-2010 by SiKFury]

[edit on 4-4-2010 by SiKFury]

reply to post by Aeons


"The other denominations are not immune to this.

They are merely less formally hierarchical. "



As they say, I don't have a dog in this fight.

I'm sure that no denomination would be free from abuse. Still, I fail to see how a formal hierarchy could not result in more incidences of abuse.

victim accuses abuser... church hierarchy sheilds abuser... abuser reoffends

victim accuses abuser... congregation sheilds abuser?

I guess it's possible for those in the open system to sheild an abuser, but it seems so less likely than in the closed system.

Originally posted by Faiol
reply to post by Iamonlyhuman
YEAH YEAH

we have a conspiracy, off course, this is ATS

people around the globe are trying to look like rape victims to get $$ from the church, since being a victm of rape is something nice and not a little humiliating

A conspiracy is when you have more than one person acting in collusion to commit a crime - so no, what I said isn't a conspiracy. Do you doubt that there are people on this planet that would use this situation to their advantage monetarily or otherwise?

Why did you feel the need to jump me for recognizing that humans beings can be greedy? I didn't accuse these people of this and I'm not defending the church on this either... just a simple recognition that some of these calls could be that.

Originally posted by asIam
Catholic church ? = one huge ungodly FAIL.

Let me rephrase that: Religion = one huge ungodly FAIL.

Religion itself and believing in God is not the problem. On the contrarily, positive thoughts can only be good, but the sad thing with religion is that way too many idiots use it as an excuse to cause misery and blood shedding, Islamic terrorist attacks and Crusades being good examples. Religion is simply connected to way too many scandals of various kinds that it should be banned.

People should worship their gods at home. I, for one, do not see the need for churches, mosques and synagogues and their supervisory bodies.

I can see Atheist, having nothing better to do then making a lot of prank calls to the Hot line. Christians are too stupid to think for themselves, because we are sheep.

Originally posted by Max_TO


Wow , could the problem of abuse be that widespread within the church ?
The report states that " only " 162 of the 4459 callers were given advice before the system was shut down.

One has to wonder just what kind of advice they were given ? Could this been done to " test the waters " as to what the church might be facing or could it have been done for the stated reasons , " to win back trust in the face of an escalating abuse scandal that threatens the papacy of German-born Pontiff Benedict XVI in Rome. "

I would venture a guess and say this is not the last we will hear on the topic of abuse within the church and one has to wonder just how long the catholic church can withstand these charges .


www.dai lymail.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

Country Germany

Total country population (2004) 82,425,000

% Atheist/Agnostic/Nonbeliever in God 41 - 49%

Number of Atheists/Agnostics Nonbelievers in God (minimum - maximum) 33,794,250 - 40,388,250

www.adherents.com...




Country Germany

Belief in a god 47%
Belief in a spirit or life force 25%
Belief in neither a spirit, god or life force 25%

en.wikipedia.org...

Germany is largely an atheist country.
USA in the same kind of polls showed only a 5% and 9% percentage.
(on the other hand USA has a
very
very
VERY

VERY

vocal atheist minority)

So were those people making pranks about the German Catholic Church since 50% of them might be non theists hence they wouldn't care?

If only roughly 50% of the population claims to be atheists or of non religion, and pedophilia percentage is high among the clergy that shouldn't tell us something about the Catholic religion but mainly for the country and its people in general.

[edit on 4-4-2010 by spacebot]

Because the connections were overburdened, many callers tried to call more than once. So the actual number of victims and relatives, who tried to call is lower. The pastors estimate, that around 1.000 different callers have tried to reach them through the hotline on the first day.
(article is in German)
www.spiegel.de...

In churches, families and other areas of society, child abuse is happening on a sickening scale.

Approximately 150.000 confirmed cases of child sexual abuse were reported to child welfare authorities in the United States during 1993. This number represents about 15% of the more than one million confirmed cases of all child abuse and neglect. But the true scope of this problem is better reflected in retrospective surveys of adults, and this article summarizes data from 19 of these surveys. Considerable evidence exists to show that at least 20% of American women and 5% to 10% of American men experienced some form of sexual abuse as children...

www.unh.edu...

It is difficult to estimate how much abuse is going on in the Catholic Church, because decade for decade, priests have covered up their crimes. The cover-up was ordered right from the top. The Catholic Church is an authoritarian organisation. So it is no surprise, that knowledge about these crimes has been suppressed.

The Vatican instructed Catholic bishops around the world to cover up cases of sexual abuse or risk being thrown out of the Church. The Observer has obtained a 40-year-old confidential document from the secret Vatican archive which lawyers are calling a 'blueprint for deception and concealment'. One British lawyer acting for Church child abuse victims has described it as 'explosive'.

The 69-page Latin document bearing the seal of Pope John XXIII was sent to every bishop in the world. The instructions outline a policy of 'strictest' secrecy in dealing with allegations of sexual abuse and threatens those who speak out with excommunication.

www.guardian.co.uk...

Although Iamonlyhuman is probably right, that a few callers may have been driven by greed or mental illness (Münchhausen syndrome), my estimate is, that only a tiny percentage of the actual victims have tried to use this number.

Many victims will probably have lost any trust in the church. These people will refuse to ask a church-operated hotline for help. Also many victims have probably buried their past memories and are unwilling to speak with any person about their abuse.

Originally posted by Target Earth
I can see Atheist, having nothing better to do then making a lot of prank calls to the Hot line. Christians are too stupid to think for themselves, because we are sheep.

What is wrong with you? So you think atheists are SO evil that they would go out of their way to stop rape victims getting help? Do you really think it's okay to blame innocent people for the evil actions of child rapists? Thou shall not claim false witness.

The TRUTH is coming out.. no amount of slandering atheists or calling victims liars will prevent this. Deal with it.

[edit on 4-4-2010 by riley]

Everybody just hold on a minute.

This thread is obviously seeping out of a modern American type prudish attitude.

To wit: Arab and Muslim societies are very fundamental in their religious taboos regulating behaviour between people. Yet, in the most militant of those very societies, like Afghanistan, there is an acceptance, albeit discreetly, of sex between grown men and boys as a natural part of growing up. They do not call it gay or pedophilia, but it is there.

No one in those very conservative religious societies is screaming about this.

Is this behaviour in the west's religious institutions really any different? Is it really the abomination people are making it out to be?

I am not trying to defend the church by any means, or the behaviour of the priests. I am 100% against the use of authority to hurt anyone. On the other hand, this kind of behaviour is pretty normal in a good chunk of the world, and has been for the entire of humanity's existence.

I don't think that anyone should be either surprised or outraged. Having said that, there needs to be a way of dealing openly and honestly with the "problem" and those who commit it. While it may have tacit acceptance in some societies it is not our norm and so something has to be done to bring honesty to the situation.

Those who think they are going to eliminate such bahaviour amongst men who have no access to normal sex are deluding themselves. Perhaps the best advice would be to let priests marry. *

[edit on 4/4/2010 by wayno]
* edit to add: and in the case of gay priests, marry a man.

[edit on 4/4/2010 by wayno]

Originally posted by wayno
This thread is obviously seeping out of a modern American type prudish attitude.

[...] like Afghanistan, there is an acceptance, albeit discreetly, of sex between grown men and boys as a natural part of growing up. They do not call it gay or pedophilia, but it is there.

No one in those very conservative religious societies is screaming about this.

Is this behaviour in the west's religious institutions really any different? Is it really the abomination people are making it out to be?

I am 100% against the use of authority to hurt anyone. On the other hand, this kind of behaviour is pretty normal in a good chunk of the world, and has been for the entire of humanity's existence.

[...] I don't think that anyone should be either surprised or outraged.

While it may have tacit acceptance in some societies it is not our norm and so something has to be done to bring honesty to the situation.

So are you against it or not? Just because abuse happens in other parts of the world doesn't make it right, does it? Does that make the America prudish??? It does sound like you don't mind it too much but then you say you're 100% against the use of authority... does that mean that you don't care as long as it's not priests doing it? Anyone of legal age asserts authority over minors, either intentionally or unintentionally... you know this.

I'm just wondering how "prudish" you would be if your 50 year old non-priest, "normal" neighbor had sex with your 12 year old son.

Those who think they are going to eliminate such bahaviour amongst men who have no access to normal sex are deluding themselves. Perhaps the best advice would be to let priests marry. *

So, are you saying that this is normal behavior if men don't get sex on a regular basis? Is sex with children normal to you?

I really would like to know how you feel about this. We'll even take the authority thing out of it as well as western societal norms. Yes or no, do you think that it is ok to have sex with a child in Afghanastan?



[edit on 4/4/2010 by Iamonlyhuman]

Originally posted by hippomchippo
I wonder if mandatory abuse hotlines would spell the end for the catholic church.

All the other Christian churches could use some more followers and they probably will.

reply to post by Iamonlyhuman


Indeed it does. Another point is that (having worked with an abused population) I can tell you getting a male to admit to sexual abuse by another male is like pulling teeth. It's not something they want to do, or ever admit to quite so easily.

They should, and they do at times in therapeutic circumstances, but disclosing these events is not typically a decision easily made.

So yes, four thousand in one day? A little hard to swallow.

Plus we would need to know the ratios. I mean, what were the Priests thinking? "So many children, so little time?". Ew.

reply to post by Iamonlyhuman

Yes or no, do you think that it is ok to have sex with a child in Afghanastan?

That is a matter for Afghanis. That it is part of their culture is not for me to agree or disagree with. I am not Afghani. I don't condemn them tho, because it is not so abhorrently unnatural as the west makes it out to be.

The "abuse" aspect of it is usually played up here way out of proportion to reality.

To be clear, I have never experienced this from either the victim or perpetrator angle. I wouldn't want to. Its not my thing.

On the other hand, sex is not a thing invented in hell by the devil. Youth can and very often are very sexual. If a younger person and older person were voluntarily into this I would have my doubts about the wisdom, but i would not jump up and down and scream abuse.

I want to edit this to indicate that I think there is no excusable circumstance anywhere or anytime in the world for sex with young children. Once a person becomes physically sexually mature, and has their own desires the matter is less clear. My understanding is that it is only sexually mature youth who are involved in the sex with older men in the middle east.

[edit on 4/4/2010 by wayno]

Originally posted by wayno
reply to post by Iamonlyhuman

 

Yes or no, do you think that it is ok to have sex with a child in Afghanastan?

That is a matter for Afghanis. That it is part of their culture is not for me to agree or disagree with. I am not Afghani. I don't condemn them tho, because it is not so abhorrently unnatural as the west makes it out to be.

Ok then... Yes or no, do you think that it is ok to have sex with a child in the U.S (or wherever you live)? And, assuming you answer yes, why do you think that it is not an abuse of perceived authority? Also, at what age is it inappropriate, if any?

reply to post by wayno


Sometimes it's all right for someone who knows better in a situation to stand up to someone and say what you are doing "is wrong".

I don't like feeling like I am a judgmental person, but sometimes those who "know" have a responsibility to educate those who don't. It's not always an easy thing to do, in fact sometimes it is the more difficult path.

People who have sex with children are simply wrong to do so. The sexual awakening characteristic in children is part of human development. It fades, and then resurfaces in puberty, and remains a part of the human make-up as it was intended.

To take advantage of a small children during the sexual anatomy discovery period is just wrong. WRONG. It's exploitation and punishable by law here in the US. For a reason. It damages the child, and studies have proven this beyond question.

So to say, it is not ours to speak up to the people of Afghanistan who are molesting children, is a cop out. We must teach, however, rather than destroy.

Originally posted by Max_TO
reply to post by Kaytagg

 

I can assure you that God has nothing to do with these people no matter how much they claim to be of God .

This is correct, God has nothing to do with the actions of these individual people. If someone chooses to become a priest and tries to live that lifestyle but fails and commits these types of crimes, that is due to their own personal weakness and faults. The church doesn't necessarily cause people to do this... Everyone makes their own choices, so it is wrong to blame anything but the people themselves. Some people just should not be priests.

reply to post by wayno


We aren't talking about sex between two consenting adults. We are talking about sex with children.

reply to post by trollz


"Everyone makes their own choices, so it is wrong to blame anything but the people themselves. Some people just should not be priests."

I agree.
But when placing blame, shouldn't we include those who sheilded the failures, those who helped enable them to commit more offences? Those people made a choice. Should they be priests?

I agree