A Question for All "Patriots"

An open post to all who care to read:

I hereby further denounce any and all attempts to disrupt, depose or disband the US government by violent means. Those who espouse this puffery DO NOT speak for me, my family my friends nor my extended circle of associates and acquaintances.

By the suggestion of your actions and intent, you stand in direct contradiction of the American population. You seek to impose your narrow dissatisfaction with current government (duly elected) on the populace as a whole.

I encourage you to seek calm and rational remedy to your grievances utilizing the myriad of political mechanisms currently in place. To those who draw on parallels of the American Revolution as a precedent for your actions I say it was an inimitable event, immune from reproduction. It was a unique occurrence not to be repeated. The concept of a rebirth is a fallacy.

To date, zero evidence or data has been presented to satisfy query in OP. Given that, I implore you to stand down, regroup and rethink.


[edit on 5-4-2010 by kinda kurious]

reply to post by Logarock


If we had more members like you and DINSTAAR debating these topics, a better understanding could come forth. Talking with rational logical people that have all of their faculties seems to be a very rare thing in this forum. For that I thank you both. I am an advocate for nonviolent change in our government. I do agree that this government is going way too far.

I dislike the Federal reserve, I believe that the Federal Reserve is in essence a Ponzi scheme, the audacity that a private bank can and does control a nations monetary supply and policy without much oversight by congress is insane.

I disagree with the Department of Homeland Security. In my opinion this is a massive waste of our taxpayer money. We already had the National Security Agency, something that in essence should have had this job already. Not to mention, the FBI, CIA, Secret Service, whatever else. Why we needed an new entity to do what all these services already do is beyond me.

I disagree with the patriot act. Frankly that is just fascist bull crap. In reality what has it done to protect anyone? But let me get back to the topic at hand.

But really for the best example of a group that actually beat its head against the wall check out the Weathermen. While not "patriots" in a classical american way, they fill your bill. They were the ones blowing up banks, attacking police, the pentagon ect ect. A real "grass" roots movement. They didnt have bibles but they had their version of the Turner papers.

The problem is, in small groups anarchy works well. In communities and national governments, anarchy does not work at all.

Say the United States breaks apart completely. Every community free to govern itself. It would be complete chaos. Cities would become uninhabitable, food deliveries would cease to exist.

Think about it, individual communities battling each other for power, resources, food, supplies. Insane tariffs and taxes being burdened on people. Think of the dark ages. Think of the horror show that the former United States would have to go through as different types of governments popped up. Each with it's own laws and own enforcement.

What you would end up with is something akin to Afghanistan, warlords taking control over sections of the country. Fighting with each other for power.

Now think about that, with the list you quoted me on, all those things require supplies that aren't always available or constructed in house. Think of warlords that have access to nuclear arms, think of countries that would love to take control of vast portions of what used to be the United States. Things like our oil reserves, food production, etc.

There are so many things that communities don't have the expertise or manpower to actually take care of. Our lifestyle would go back a century or two in the event that the federal government was overthrown. Countries would refuse to trade with the former United States, and others would see the opportunity to take large tracts of our nation over. Think of the Mexican drug gangs for instance who already have the underground infrastructure and supply lines in place.

I just think that these internet revolutionaries don't have any clue what chaos they want to unleash on this nation. They aren't thinking about how truly inhuman humans really are.

Seriously ! ?
This entire idea that the world, or organized human thought ,or people would stop being responsible because the removal of useless parasites from seats within government and or agencies of corporatist control is retarded fearbased thinking.

RETARDED!
(slow or limited in intellectual or emotional development or academic progress)
FEAR!
a distressing emotion aroused by impending danger, evil, pain, etc., whether the threat is real or imagined; the feeling or condition of being afraid.

Youre asking me to believe that "poof" somehow instantly we would cease to be intelligent as individuals and that we would perish, anarchy would bloom overnight into a population consuming dread machine,
people would lose the ability to reason and problem solve and the world would somehow dismantle because the U.S. took a laxative and finally purged itself of some impacted crap in its governmental colon?

Here's your current presidential line of succession.
Their office titles and names and rank.
Somehow removal of these individuals would cause others below them to stop functioning? Their brains would no longer work?
Somehow these same people are currently doing a stellar job and are the best we have to be inserted into these positions, AND theyre all worthy to be president?
Somehow this is the best we've evolved to?
The massive sucking sound predicted years ago by good old Ross Perot didnt happen, and warning shots across the bow from intelligent people concerning our country and its slide into dissolve arent ringing true enough to be acted upon YET.

# Office Current Officer
1 Vice President Joe Biden
2 Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi
3 President pro tempore of the Senate Robert Byrd
4 Secretary of State Hillary Clinton
5 Secretary of the Treasury Timothy Geithner
6 Secretary of Defense Robert Gates[2]
7 Attorney General Eric Holder
8 Secretary of the Interior Ken Salazar
9 Secretary of Agriculture Tom Vilsack
10 Secretary of Commerce Gary Locke
11 Secretary of Labor Hilda Solis
12 Secretary of Health and Human Services Kathleen Sebelius
13 Secretary of Housing and Urban Development Shaun Donovan
14 Secretary of Transportation Ray LaHood
15 Secretary of Energy Steven Chu
16 Secretary of Education Arne Duncan
17 Secretary of Veterans Affairs Eric Shinseki
18 Secretary of Homeland Security Janet Napolitano

There's less wrong with the FORM,
there's more wrong with the CONTENT and INFECTION.

A plan you ask? Shouldnt that come from the framing, the original framing?
Restoration seems like a plan.
Expecting perfection is insane, you cant expect something you yourself cant deliver, but you can expect values, morals, ethics, honesty, concern, and respect.
This isnt insurmountable, it's 1/3 of the work, at best, of what was accomplished at the founding. The infrastructure will not vanish.
When the cancer is removed from the body does the body vanish?

The call to abandon reform because of fear of the unknown is a nonsensical defeatist position for me.
It's as nonsensical as consumption without contribution, as hypocritical as name calling those that name call.
There has been mention within this thread of plans offered, I'm sure there are thousands of similar plans that could be melded that would give a truer representation and administration to the affected.
It's no wonder that the talk of revolution and violence has risen when basically all that's offered is more of the same, mocking and ridicule, arrogance and assumption, and curled fetal postions with cries of surrender and the scent of urine.
Common sense has been replaced by common scents.





[edit on 5-4-2010 by HappilyEverAfter]

reply to post by HappilyEverAfter

This entire idea that the world, or organized human thought ,or people would stop being responsible because the removal of useless parasites from seats within government and or agencies of corporatist control is retarded fearbased thinking.

Is it not also 'retarded', 'fearbased' thinking to believe that the government should not do certain things, while other things like courts and military it should do?

Why? The burden of proof is on the people advocating violence. It makes no sense to criticize government activity if you also advocate government control of certain things that magically create the illusion of 'rule of law'. The constitution, if followed, would have been a great positive leap for humanity. Instead, it just made the force of government have to deal with its own inefficiencies when trying to oppress people. It's better than other forms of tyranny, but is tyranny none-the-less.

At least the OP doesn't contradict him/herself in the very argument they promote. I am not saying that I agree with the OP at all, but some questions on the validity of the 'small government' people need to be addressed.

You can see that government control is bad (commendable) while advocating government control for certain things magically make us free.

For the record, I am advocating anarchy.

So good, I said it twice....


double post

[edit on 5-4-2010 by DINSTAAR]

reply to post by DINSTAAR


Somehow you are assuming I'm advocating violence as a first response, and that is not the case.

If you need clarity on my position it's 5 degrees west of anarchy,
we will not see that goal realized.

What has not been addressed here is the other side of the coin that is very much in existence and has dominated the political landscape to this point this far.
The industry of government and the participants of its continuation will do all that is needed to keep the status quo,
you can vote and petition and gather and debate and ATTEMPT to elect and share in the stream of upward moving collective thought to your represenatives all you want, but their consumption, their belief in entitlement to the spoils of their career will not diminish.
Reform and or return will be countered, whether thru ignoring, or stalling or created crisis, or tampered election,
the frustration will escalate.
Our own internal unaddressed turmoil will be the distraction taken advantage of by "insert group here" that will facilitate the crippling event and the follow up chaos that will ride in behind it.
Myself, I am prepared on a personal level to do my best to weather the storm.
There are citizens, and I know quite a few, that are at their wits end, they have family, children, responsibilites and are without employment, and are collapsing, into that state of desperation, that once it reaches its point of saturation, of majority share, there will be nothing that can be spoken or written that will quell to actions to survive.
So as we crawl on our bandwagons and spout our critiques and frustrations let us also include offers of understanding and solutions, or at the very least the exibit of compassion to those experiencing a condition we may not have arrived at YET, but if current conditons not remedied, we all will share soon enough.
So in short I guess I am:
Someone who attends local and regional traditional government meetings, coupled with individual citizen groups, who has not abandoned non violent means of redress, but has watched the erosion of his country continue even though participating, who does not stand in the line of the fearful and will as option of last resort defend without prejudice.

My plan for a government take over includes the following critical elements…

1. A gilded throne
2. Scantily clad women fanning me with palm fronds
3. Scantily clad women feeding me grapes
4. Scantily clad women dancing
5. Scantily clad women refilling my wine goblet
6. Scantily clad women massaging my temples to do away with the stress of running the county

I think it’s a solid, sound plan, the pretty much envisions every major contingency don’t you?

Why must the peasants and surfs always complain!

For sake of clarity, I am not suggesting that the current US sytem in place nor it's leaders are perfect. I DO NOT subscribe to the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality. IMHO, it needs some major "tweaking."

I am hopeful and optimistic that as a result of compassionate dialogue, we can experience emergence by culling "pros", eliminating "cons" and enhancing our current system with fresh ideas for the future.

This theory is not unique nor original:

The concept has been in use since at least the time of Aristotle.[1] John Stuart Mill[2] and Julian Huxley[3] are just some of the historic luminaries who have written on the concept.

The term "emergent" was coined by the pioneer psychologist G. H. Lewes, who wrote:

"Every resultant is either a sum or a difference of the co-operant forces; their sum, when their directions are the same -- their difference, when their directions are contrary. Further, every resultant is clearly traceable in its components, because these are homogeneous and commensurable.

Professor Jeffrey Goldstein in the School of Business at Adelphi University provides a current definition of emergence in the journal, Emergence (Goldstein 1999). For Goldstein, emergence can be defined as: "the arising of novel and coherent structures, patterns and properties during the process of self-organization in complex systems" (Corning 2002).

Goldstein's definition can be further elaborated to describe the qualities of this definition in more detail. "The common characteristics are:
(1) radical novelty (features not previously observed in systems)
(2) coherence or correlation (meaning integrated wholes that maintain themselves over some period of time)
(3) A global or macro "level" (i.e. there is some property of "wholeness")
(4) it is the product of a dynamical process (it evolves)
(5) it is "ostensive" (it can be perceived).

Source

Look folks, all I am saying is I have EVERY RIGHT to believe that although the current system is flawed, it is worthy of repair. The group who proposes violence DOES NOT have a monopoly on patriotism. I too love my country and hence question those who seek to destroy it without a cohesive plan.

If I was proposing a revolution (which I'm not) I would START with a plan. I would plan the work and work the plan. (plan=blueprint for effective change, manifesto, creed.) A new peaceful political party for starters.


I will not



[edit on 5-4-2010 by kinda kurious]

reply to post by HappilyEverAfter


Go through a major hurricane sometime. That will show you what happens after a government is evaporated overnight. No power, no water, no food (unless you have these supplies)

Katrina was a small little taste of what good humanity is when under anarchy.

reply to post by kinda kurious


Yes, keep the basics and get rid of the entitlements, unfunded mandates to the states, and other violations of the 10th amendment.

There won't be any talk of "revolution" if that is done.



[edit on 4/5/2010 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by HappilyEverAfter

 

Go through a major hurricane sometime. That will show you what happens after a government is evaporated overnight. No power, no water, no food (unless you have these supplies)

Katrina was a small little taste of what good humanity is when under anarchy.

Youre coupling two extremes, a worst case scenario of sorts.
Physical devastation and an immediate need to survive for arguments sake is not the same as an administrative overhaul.
Of course if both events happened at the same time, coup and natural chaos then yes it would be beyond traumatic.
Katrina is also a good example of the best laid intentions failing to be executed, and pre Katrina maintenance is also such an example.
We can cite flaws until we're buried and pass the relay stick on to the following generations.
I'm of the mind that there's enough intelligence to truly solve these problems we share, and I'm also realistic enough to know that the end result is not a goal that everyone has.

reply to post by kinda kurious

I hereby further denounce any and all attempts to disrupt, depose or disband the US government by violent means. I hereby further denounce any and all attempts to disrupt, depose or disband the US government by violent means.

Well thanks for clearly that up. I was under the impression that you were FOR such things based on your random pulling at straws to discredit it, but clearly, you have proven otherwise by this statement.

By the suggestion of your actions and intent, you stand in direct contradiction of the American population.

You speak for the "American population" now? This is something us Patriots get accused of a lot but here you are, speaking on behalf of them like you represent the whole. Funny how that works.

I encourage you to seek calm and rational remedy to your grievances utilizing the myriad of political mechanisms currently in place.

Do provide a suggestion since your would encourage such. And while you are at it, back up such suggestions with any times in the last decade where such actions have achieved the desired outcome.

What exactly is YOUR plan, because even though it might not cover all bases, at least we have one.

To those who draw on parallels of the American Revolution as a precedent for your actions I say it was an inimitable event, immune from reproduction. It was a unique occurrence not to be repeated.

Well since YOU SAY then by golly I guess that does it. Forget history and forget the times where history has dauntlessly repeated itself, kinda kurious says and therefore it is law. How can you even begin to say that an event that only occurred or even attempted ONCE is immune from reproduction? What gives you the great universal authority?



reply to post by HappilyEverAfter


Thank you HappilyEverAfter. The mere opening post is ludicrous to assume that just because government hoodlums are replaced the entire system is going to crash beneath it. Star for you.








Honestly, just because the government is restored to a Constitutional Republic... everyone is just going to go home? Everyone is going to become nonproductive and lazy? Not that people aren't already lazy but do you people actually thing that this would happen? To me it is nothing more than grasping at straws for the sake of defeating the revolution.

The effort is meaningless. You aren't going to stop the people from continuing to wake up, continuing to realize the new age of slavery, and continuing to realize that to fight is the only way to do it. Even the most history illiterate people know what happens to the groups of people that were led blindly and chose NOT to fight when they needed to.

Not that this is a popularity contest, but since so many anti-revolutionaries seem to feel that they have the will of the people on their sides, let us use ATS as a little polling place. Why don't you take a look at flags for topics pro-revolution as opposed to topics anti-revolution, such as this one. Not that ATS is the statistical overlord for polling, however, the scenario is there and the times have changed and more and more people are leaning towards the revolution I spoke of since November of last year. The numbers are growing exponentially and there is not going to be ANYTHING that stops the restoration of this country when the time comes.

You can sit here and assume the worst to happen to try to make your side look the better, but know that the side of the revolution, the side of the patriot sees hope through the darkness. If we didn't, we wouldn't even be fighting. You are so scared of going through one hard time in your life even if it meant a remaining lifetime of happiness and freedom.

You best just accept it. You can only deny it for so long. You can only ignore it for so long before you just start sounding silly. The revolution is at our door steps. You can either preach to a bunch of people who have already made up their minds, or you can brace your self, prepare for some possible hard times (revolution or not), and look over the horizon instead of at the foot of the mountain. You can only shill out personal insults and discredit someones character so much before you start to discredit your own and honestly, for some here on ATS, it is getting that point pretty quick.

reply to post by kinda kurious

And your proof is?

reply to post by gwydionblack


Spare us the rhetoric and grandstanding speech. The OP asked only a basic and simple question, and yet, after 5 pages, none of the perpetrators of violent revolution could utter even a credible plan or how long they intend chaos to last….wait…or did they imagined that with a letter served, everything will magically fall into place within 5 secs?

Worse still, with you coming out with a total absolute irrational rant. Let me ask you this – if these so called ‘patriots’ are as many as you claimed, where are their names with social security numbers? Why hide behind anonymity, after all, they claimed themselves courageous, virtuous and many more chest thumping claim, why the fear to put in writing?

A poll here? Anonymously? That’s laughable. I can provide you a billion stars on your single post if you wish – just open a billion new accounts. Are you so dense not to realize this?

What must I do to wake you up, and only enough to keep to topic, let alone discuss about the bigger picture? Red pill or blue pill? (If only it was that easy)


PS: Kinda Kurious, I am insignificant and a nobody, just an ordinary guy, but you have my deepest admiration for your perseverance in taking on those hoodlums single handedly, along with a few other non-violent seeking humans here, as well as you and these non-violent folks’ significant and rational insights.

Kudos and Cheers! :-

Originally posted by gwydionblack
reply to post by kinda kurious

 

I encourage you to seek calm and rational remedy to your grievances utilizing the myriad of political mechanisms currently in place.

Do provide a suggestion since your would encourage such. And while you are at it, back up such suggestions with any times in the last decade where such actions have achieved the desired outcome.

The last decade? That would fall squarely under the helm of GWB. But if I might go further back:

Repeal of Prohibition = 1933
The Civil Rights Act = 1964
Social Security Act = 1965 (Medicare, Medicaid)
Americans with Disabilities Act = 1990

Landmark legislation enacted by non-violent means. Unless you just wanted to see some bloody civil war photos?

What exactly is YOUR plan, because even though it might not cover all bases, at least we have one.

Logic would dictate that the burden of proof falls upon those who seek revolution. I suspect there is none, just hollow banter. The obligation is yours to demonstrate, convince and persuade that the alternative you propose is superior to what currently exists.

I see no plan, I see Talking Points mired in esoteric bravado. I see no clear leader. I see a ship without a rudder. I see disjointed barbs from a "yard-sale" mentality strewn about.



[edit on 5-4-2010 by kinda kurious]

reply to post by kinda kurious


Most people seem to miss the point that control starts at the STATE level.
It's the responsiblity of the people of every STATE to take an active role in how their STATE is governed, the laws , the regulations,the taxes and how they are spent.

Every agency listed should begin at the STATE level.



The apathtic noninvolvement of the people has left elected officials to deciede what is best for us.(The fox guarding the hen house)

If the people of every state spent a fraction of the time and money that is spent lobbying their states elected officials as big business does the elected officials might be a little concerned at what the people think.


It is the STATES that give the Federal government it's power to dictate, and it is the PEOPLE that GIVE power to the STATES.

Ok lets end this talking of violent revolution in the USA, patriots as they call themselves do not want this, the curent system in government, wants this violence thing to solidify there power. That's way they go for those poor and missguided militias, the reason they atacked them is because they were not the militia but a cult and some of the members were a little of there rocker. Good riddance they werent all that stable, but they were a mouse not a lion. And no i am not a patriot i am just living in the country like all others for the time being.

So lets see what is up and were this was referenced before, on the one hand we have people like whatukno who have a direct stake in political climate, so therefore everytime he hears revolution its a direct attack to his job and lifestyle. On the other we have gwydionblack who wants a revolution because of the direct attack on his job and lifestyle. And since its only your lifestyles that are in guestion and not your lifes then violence is out of the question.

reply to post by kinda kurious

Simply because your blind does not mean your house is not on fire.
Take over of banks>ILLEGAL. Firing the CEO of a major corp. and taking over a car co.> illegal. Take over of health care>illegal. This is the short list. Our constitution only gives the FEDERAL govmunt 17 specific powers. Guess what? None of those are on it. And please don't bore me with the general welfare clause because it doesn't apply. Read the federalists papers for yourself and find out.

Originally posted by rick1
Read the federalists papers for yourself and find out.

Thanks p,
Please provide a link. I'd be happy to review ANY data presented.
Regards...kk

Originally posted by kinda kurious
This thread is directed toward the increasingly vocal group of anti-government posters (aka patriots) suggesting government overthrow or revolt.

I have an itty-bitty question:

In the course of planning your uprising to halt, cripple or replace the US government, have you a contingency plan to maintain the critical services necessary for sustaining the US economic, societal, military and commerce infrastructure vital to the stability and defense of the country which might otherwise yield us vulnerable to attack?

These include, but are not limited to, critical US agencies which are largely non-political in nature but critical to the safety and well-being of all citizens:

The Federal Aviation Administration (oversees air travel)
The Center for Disease Control (monitors / guards against plagues, pandemics etc.)
The Department of Education (oversees nationwide school system)
The Department of Energy (oversees nationwide utility grid)
The Department of Transportation (monitors / inspects highways, bridges and tunnels)
The Department of Defense (US military, National Guard, Civil Defense)
The Food and Drug Administration (oversees food safety, nutrition and supplements)

..........just to name a few.

If you have a plan in place to provide for the millions of US citizens who would be
severely hampered or placed in harm’s way in their pursuit of life, liberty and happiness by your actions then please show me the secret handshake. If not, you will be held duly accountable for those who experience peril as a result of your specious campaign.

I look forward to the benefit of your reply.


[edit on 3-4-2010 by kinda kurious]

To answer your question: I don't have to have a revolution to undo the following institutions as unconstitutional:

The Department of Education is unconstitutional and should be set by the state. This department is being used as nothing more than anti-state pro-federal meddling that at best are blackmailing states for their own ridiculous agenda. This should be done away with pronto.

Department of Energy, EPA, FDA, et al:
Go bye-bye. Unconstitutional and is rank with power hungry lobbyists. Peace. See you later.

Center of Disease Control: bye bye. Set up by your state, not federal government. States can work together. Again, shouldn't be federalized. WHO hasn't worked, I don't know why you would expect this to work out either.

Dept of Transportation should be set by the State. Again, the Federal government uses this provision to blackmail states into accepting items that they do not want to be a part of.

And the FDA is a joke. They are in the back pocket of Monsanto, Pfizer, and Baxter so ixnay that.

So yeah, once we start petitioning our states to reassert their power, you don't have to worry about it. The Fed should be there as little as possible and only uphold the first 27 amendments. After that, laters.