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A Question for All "Patriots"

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posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 12:51 AM
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reply to post by kinda kurious
 


I was hoping to open this thread and find a few questions for people who consider calling themselves patriots and seeing a discussion over the idea of being a patriot. I was wrong. The OPs fear is manufactured disdain for antigovernment people.



This thread is directed toward the increasingly vocal group of anti-government posters (aka patriots) suggesting government overthrow or revolt.


What about anti-government people who see unfounded affection toward an arbitrary geographical region in abstract (patriotism) as a crutch for the feeble minded and brainwashed zombified masses of society?



In the course of planning your uprising to halt, cripple or replace the US government, have you a contingency plan to maintain the critical services necessary for sustaining the US economic, societal, military and commerce infrastructure vital to the stability and defense of the country which might otherwise yield us vulnerable to attack?


No sane person is planning an uprising. It is just happening, and all the government does is working toward it. The US government is devaluing itself through market terrorism and hyper imperialism. The basis of your question is such that would suggest that we are safe and stable to begin with.



These include, but are not limited to, critical US agencies which are largely non-political in nature but critical to the safety and well-being of all citizens:


Your premise is flawed. These agencies are political, noncritical, and not necessary. The market would have already found better, safer, and cheaper ways to deal with all of the stuff your list of entrenched bureaucracies have had the responsibility to control.



If you have a plan in place to provide for the millions of US citizens who would be severely hampered or placed in harm’s way in their pursuit of life, liberty and happiness by your actions then please show me the secret handshake.


And yet another flawed premise. Nobody has to provide resources for others in order for them to be fed, free, and comfortable. Simply allow them to provide for themselves, and to provide for whomever they choose.

Do you own shoes? I do. Thank God the government gave them to us, otherwise we would be barefoot.




You cherry-picked examples but avoided the question. Nice try. Simply describe your plan or provide overview to replace the hundreds of thousands Gov. employees.


The level of complete subjugation in your statement is borderline insanity.

The fact that the government employs people, and provides some with sustenance does not mean that theft, murder, and all around a**holery should continue. The only reason people 'need' the government in the first place is directly because of government action. The welfare system is like a hole people fall in for life.



BTW, my father worked for FAA for 30 years as ATC.


Your father would have been just as skilled and devoted as an ATC if his job were not provided under the FAA. Just because the FAA (or any acronym gov't agency) does a job, it does not mean they are the best at providing it. It just means that competition is no longer allowed and innovation is stifled.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
As for a plan. I am not violent as my main moral objection to the government is the violence inherent in the system.

My 'plan' is to try and break people of violent habits and provide them with better options for a free future.

It seems odd to hear that a big plan need not be implemented, especially for a devote worshiper of the state.

I do not plan on destroying the government. Besides, the government does not like competition, and this very thing is what it seems to be the best at.

reply to post by nomorecruelty
 




Got media connections? Political connections? Sounds to me like the OP has a "plan" already in mind.


My thoughts exactly.

===============================================================

It is fairly obvious most people are not fans of violence. But it is also clear that most advocate such a thing under the guise of government planning. It seems foolish to seek peace through acts of violence, but I guess the state schools and entrenched pseudo-press have done their job quite well.

I expect your response to be more deflection and frothing nationalist propaganda. I don't know you personally so I am quite open for you to surprise me with something intelligent.


______________________________________________________________________________

I guess I am the only one here that see's 'patriot' as a derogatory term. Patriotism is worship of a violent system. The same violent system that uses violence against the worshiper. Stockholm syndrome is the common term used in psychology to describe such a thing.



I know no one will watch a bit of this, but I will at least try.




posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 01:30 AM
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reply to post by DINSTAAR
 


You read LewRockwell's site don't you?


Good post.

You beat me to it.



posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 01:43 AM
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reply to post by Exuberant1
 


I like Rockwell. He's got a decent site. I like how he, at least, is willing to present anarchist thought.

At present I am reading a lot of Rothbard and 'We' by Yevgeny Zamyatin.



posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 02:33 AM
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reply to post by kinda kurious
 


Well I guess I am starting the hearts and minds program with you...



I know it was a disorganized mess..


If you want serious I will change the tone to a more appropriate state for a mutual dialog.

I have read a few of your post and do consider you a staunch supporter of the powers that be. I am not using it in conspiratorial tone but in the tone of the hey there are the ones in charge on paper stance...

With as a starting point I will begin...

A very simple question for you Op. At what point does your experience state is the point the that those reading your thread should truly worry about abuses of power.

I have feeling we will disagree on it but for know I would appreciate an honest benchmark from you where even you say to your Representatives now hold on just a minute...

My understanding of must of the key points of the grounded members of the patriot movements is they feel like the frog in the water and noticed the temperature have risen a degree...

Me personally I do have a legitimate plan but it is more of an if then. You did make me think of possible holes in it so I do appreciate your thread. I would love to here you answer...

And remember no matter how mad your gonna get at my attempt to persuade you you opened the thread with a good question.... IE. HEY mod he started it


[edit on 4-4-2010 by ripcontrol]



posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 06:11 AM
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be very careful my friends it has been designed and created to cause ill will amoung your country very much the same as is taking place in the uk
their aim is to cause unrest and riots , so that they can bring in martial law
and once the troops are on the streets and in our towns they will stay there.
george orwells film 1984 is becomming more and more a possibility every day



posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 08:09 AM
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Originally posted by DINSTAAR
reply to post by kinda kurious
 


The OPs fear is manufactured disdain for antigovernment people.


Which is another way to say my opinion. (This is a discussion forum.) A simple question "manufactured" in my conscience and brain.



What about anti-government people who see unfounded affection toward an arbitrary geographical region in abstract (patriotism) as a crutch for the feeble minded and brainwashed zombified masses of society?


I am not sure what you are asking. Your query is mired in jargon. But I respond:

"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." ~George Bernard Shaw

So perhaps we agree on this.




No sane person is planning an uprising.


Agreed, that IS MY FEAR.



These agencies are political, noncritical, and not necessary. The market would have already found better, safer, and cheaper ways to deal with all of the stuff your list of entrenched bureaucracies have had the responsibility to control.


Hmmmmmm. FAA : Sets air travel safety standards. Guides and directs commercial aircraft including take off and landings in the largest, safest and busiest airspace in the world. Not necessary?
Fly much?



Do you own shoes? I do. Thank God the government gave them to us, otherwise we would be barefoot.


Cleaver, but I prefer: "I felt sorry for myself because I had only one shoe until I met a man with only one foot." It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness.

====================================================

The balance of your reply was a nonsensical tirade. (Hypocritical in the sense you accuse me of same.) There are not enough letters on my keyboard to waste addressing your rant. Although obviously well educated, you waste many words without saying much.

OK, I won't use the term 'patriot.' Looks like the proponents of government substitution don't have a plan (or contingency) to insure safety and well being of nation's citizens. That better?


[edit on 4-4-2010 by kinda kurious] edits to tidy up

[edit on 4-4-2010 by kinda kurious]



posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 11:13 AM
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reply to post by kinda kurious
 


hey kinda! what is your expenditure plan? let me be really clear once obama finishes off where bush left off, there will not be much left of the U.S this country will look something like Chile, or zimbabwe, so what is your plan, highly doubt you will be coming out of your jet smiling, more like running for your life as poverty creates crime and that is a known fact! anyhow curious to hear your synopsis, as either way i forsee a revolution or a huge crime rate, thus changing America forever?

[edit on 4-4-2010 by allprowolfy]



posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 01:27 PM
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As a foreigner I may not be entitled to post on this forum, but whatever this is a free country. Isn't it?

The OP underlines a big problem. Maybe or maybe not the US deserve a "peaceful revolution" , I'm not qualified to judge it.
However, do you seriously think that the number one country in the world is gonna be taken over by peace-loving citizens? This is not retarded communist Russia, folks.

Any well-informed military commander is gonna tell you that in order to achieve success, you need to take over a communications satellite. So this so-called revolution is gonna be crushed and freedom is gonna make a huge step back, thanks to the bunch of nostalgic jerks who think parading around dressed like Mel Gibson in "Patriot" is gonna open them the doors of the white House.

YOu Americans crack me up



posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 02:11 PM
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reply to post by kinda kurious
 




Hmmmmmm. FAA : Sets air travel safety standards. Guides and directs commercial aircraft including take off and landings in the largest, safest and busiest airspace in the world. Not necessary? Fly much?


This is the typical response of one so convinced that the initiation violence is the only way to solve problems.



The balance of your reply was a nonsensical tirade.


Says the one incapable of seeing alternative ways to solve societies problems without the use of coercion. Until you open the discussion for nonviolent answers, we are getting nowhere.



There are not enough letters on my keyboard to waste addressing your rant.


Maybe you should get a new keyboard because I would love to see if you can provide any logical argument against what I said and will say.



Although obviously well educated, you waste many words without saying much.


Deflection. Your arguments are morally and logically flawed and ignoring the issue entirely.



Looks like the proponents of government substitution don't have a plan (or contingency) to insure safety and well being of nation's citizens. That better?


I advocate not substituting anything for government at all. I am criticizing the entire logical basis for any type of state governance itself. Statism is a failed ideology that can only hold on by brainwashing the people and stimulating irrational religious zealotry.

The biggest lie to humanity is that they belong to some group of people based on geographical area. The idea of 'nation' itself is just a way to separate the plantations so the masters know whose slaves belong to whom.

I have a few questions for patriots myself.
Why do 'we' need to solve problems with violence?
Why is 'we' always used to mean the government?
Why, in the statists mind, are certain problems solved through freedom, while others can only be solved through tyranny?
How is theft, murder, and coercion wrong, if its not wrong for everyone? Why does the state get a pass to do terrible things?
How are people that work in government so special that they provide solutions that can only be provided by them?
How are people so obsessed with government planning, that to think that planning is not essential is heresy?

---------------------------

So what is the plan? My plan is to advocate nonviolence and speak loudly against all forms of tyranny. If we can achieve a world or even a section of it without systematic violence, one will be surprised by how many problems that we face today will disappear entirely.

The easiest way to 'solve' the ills of the world are to stop causing them.

Governments don't solve problems without violence. Violence creates additional problems. Then, the government takes upon itself the duty to solve the problems it created in the first place. The feedback loop continues and eventually the system collapses under its own weight.

As a history lesson, look at Germany between WWI and II. Every step along the way, the German government or the European governments were trying to solve problems (territorial disputes, grudges etc) and every single step made the problems worse. All this, up until the point where otherwise decent German people were starved, physically and intellectually, and finally got to the point where some of the largest atrocities were condoned and praised.

Disclaimer: I do not wish to seem insulting to the OP or anyone in particular. I am fighting an idea, and my anger and frustration is with that, not individuals.



posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 03:14 PM
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Originally posted by allprowolfy
reply to post by kinda kurious
 


hey kinda! what is your expenditure plan? let me be really clear once obama finishes off where bush left off, there will not be much left of the U.S this country will look something like Chile, or zimbabwe, so what is your plan, highly doubt you will be coming out of your jet smiling, more like running for your life as poverty creates crime and that is a known fact! anyhow curious to hear your synopsis, as either way i forsee a revolution or a huge crime rate, thus changing America forever?

[edit on 4-4-2010 by allprowolfy]


Sorry but you answer a question with a question. I have no plan as I am not trying to unseat our Government. Why bring our President in to this discussion? I didn't.

My short experience on ATS has shown me that when someone attacks your Avatar or Screen name. They offer no valid argument. Thanks for confirming that belief.



posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 03:22 PM
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The only revolution there is going to be is in November, and then in 2012.

I can't wait for that turkey shoot to begin. The thought of Reid, Stupak and company cleaning out their offices and wondering how ended up out of a job brings a smile to my face and brightens my day.



posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 03:27 PM
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reply to post by DINSTAAR
 


We both seek the same outcome through non violent means. You are obviously more well read and versed than I and I acknowledge that. I suppose my intent was to challenge those who threaten Government overthrow into realizing the daunting scope of their undertaking and thereby discourage their actions without careful consideration.

However feeble it may seem it was humble and sincere.

You are wise and I can learn from you. You've pointed out many flaws in my logic, chinks in the armor. I thank you for your erudite observations of my albeit misguided query.

To all others, I implore you to stand down until you offer a cogent plan of action which insures safety and well being of the citizens of America and affect change through non violent means.

Regards...kk



posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 03:32 PM
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reply to post by DINSTAAR
 

Sorry, I don't mean to intrude in your discussion with Karl - but you make some very good points and have a great set of fair questions for "patriots". And personally I like your plan as an individual:

So what is the plan? My plan is to advocate nonviolence and speak loudly against all forms of tyranny. If we can achieve a world or even a section of it without systematic violence, one will be surprised by how many problems that we face today will disappear entirely.
The easiest way to 'solve' the ills of the world are to stop causing them.


Underlying all the complexity and scope, motivation and intent, rhetoric and disparagement seems to be vehement disagreement on how to implement a better social structure - as well as what constitutes "better".
If more people really held your stated view, the world would naturally become a better place - many of our motives and intents are unclear to us and we have difficulty distinguishing our view of ourselves.

gj


[edit on 4-4-2010 by ganjoa]



posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 04:37 PM
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reply to post by kinda kurious
 




I suppose my intent was to challenge those who threaten Government overthrow into realizing the daunting scope of their undertaking and thereby discourage their actions without careful consideration.


You make a good point challenging such ideas. When people are heard balking on about 'patriotism' and a 'revolution' it is generally meant to be more of the same just with a hint of whatever makes the savagery and tyranny a little more palatable.

Reagan is revered by many as the model for fiscal conservatism, and yet, he increased the scope of the federal government in a similar fashion than Jimmy Carter (one who is seen as an opposite). INTERESTING ARTICLE

Reagan also used blatant fear-mongering in his just-say-no campaign. The campaign that managed to send countless of peaceful people to prisons, expand the scope of police agencies (to the point where THIS is acceptable attire for police), and managed to do the complete opposite of what was intended. Drugs are easier to get, more potent, and more lucrative for the criminal element.

This is just one of many examples I can show of how ideas with good intentions, implemented through violence, create problems. Many times, the problem created is the very problem that is being 'solved'.



To all others, I implore you to stand down until you offer a cogent plan of action which insures safety and well being of the citizens of America and affect change through non violent means.


I would like to add an idea for further discussion.

Imagine if government controls the price of certain goods and imagine these goods are in high demand and essential for peoples well being. In this example, lets say it is a staple food like corn. The government puts a price floor on the good, and promotes systems that artificially maintain the high prices. This leads to campaigns like THIS and others (like ethanol) that destroy the staple as a food source in order to keep supply low.
Supply is low, demand is high, price goes up. Basic economics.

Alright. Lets say that in this particular area, people can no longer afford such high prices. The farmers can't sell their corn and people cannot eat. This will create a moral dilemma of choosing between poorly implemented government planning, or survival for both the producers and consumers.

Throughout history there have been many examples of this exact issue. This very type of black market happened in Soviet Russia and was an integral part of its economy. In fact, many say that the amount of suffering due to starvation would have been immensely greater if it not for the black market.

My idea, utilize the illegal barter or trade of goods and services in a market system separate to that of the government sanctioned, taxed, and regulated market. This will create a realistic price structure (something that government is incapable of figuring out and leads to many problems) and will provide people with the opportunity to voluntarily take part in monetary systems backed by real, consumable and tangible, goods. The money system itself will have competition and will again be the servant of all men, rather than the servant of a few.

Because of the allure of the underground market, all people will gladly take part (including those in government power, like alcohol prohibition in the US) as it price structure is realistic and full value is restored in the fruits of peoples labor. There will no longer be the hand of government taking what others work for, and the market itself will instill in mankind the values of freedom and personal responsibility.

Information will flow freely on black market Internet servers and reduce the asymmetry of information that has plagued humanity with ignorance.

Eventually, the 'state' itself will whither like a leaf on a tree with no nutrients. It will fall off, and no one would even care. Society goes on, only this time, there is no overwhelming monopoly of the use of force.

Basically, the government will create problems that will be solved by creative black marketeers and render itself irrelevant.

Just a thought.



posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 04:54 PM
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reply to post by ganjoa
 




Sorry, I don't mean to intrude in your discussion with Karl - but you make some very good points and have a great set of fair questions for "patriots". And personally I like your plan as an individual:


It is not my discussion, nor is it his (although he has more invested than I am can probably argue some ownership of the thread, as it was created by him), and all input is welcome and encouraged.



Underlying all the complexity and scope, motivation and intent, rhetoric and disparagement seems to be vehement disagreement on how to implement a better social structure - as well as what constitutes "better".


True. Some people would rather be fed scraps by an authoritarian master and color-by-number off in a corner, while others seek selfish gains as its own end, and other seek truth and virtue as an end.

Most people fall in one of those categories.
1. don't care, or too busy doing something else
2. don't care and whoever dies with the most toys wins
3. care and wish to explore all or even just a few avenues of thought to seek enlightenment

#3 is a big group, and these are the people most receptive to discussion. Some have differing opinions of what a good solution is, but I personally maintain the position of peace and voluntarism. All virtuous ideas are peaceful, thus require consent.



If more people really held your stated view, the world would naturally become a better place - many of our motives and intents are unclear to us and we have difficulty distinguishing our view of ourselves.


If I am picking this up correctly, humanities vision for itself has become muddled. We are distracted and/or tricked into systems of oppression that undermine our very humanity and if people can get beyond this, the world would be a better place for all.

I think thats what you mean... I am only working on 3 hrs of sleep.



posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 06:06 PM
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reply to post by DINSTAAR
 


Maybe got a little too deep on that last one but I agree with your more eloquent presentation. I was simply stating that we as individuals are blinded by our motives and intents and thus don't "reason" clearly. Good job!

Many thanks and kudos to your and kinda kurious for building the thread's understanding of these issues and their impacts.

gj

edited to complete last sentence


[edit on 4-4-2010 by ganjoa]



posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 07:13 PM
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lol This is ridiculous. It seems to me that you are putting down everyone, regardless of the answer. Are you honestly asking a question, or just looking for someone to arrogantly argue with?
The plan seems pretty simple to me.
When the revolution is over the goverment officials will be replaced (by vote) with people that are more wellsuited to lead.
What's to question?
As said before me, most of the organizations you mentioned could be disposed of or reformed over time. Everything doesn't have to happen immediately.
Also, I'm going to try to clarify something.
Most people aren't saying
"Let's go to Washington and overthrow the government."
They are saying that they will fight back once attacked, more or less.



posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 07:51 PM
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reply to post by kinda kurious
 


I would like to reply to the OP, and I read it several times, yet after reading it several times I cannot justify the implied damages to a functioning society as you state.
Air traffic control of course is needed, but the other departments and agencies I fail to see the daily life support.
In fact I'd subscribe to the theory that their budgets consume far more than they contribute.
Are you suggesting that the current state of affairs is the best we can do and that we should continue on accepting the status quo and not address repairs needed in our governments operation, yes even if it requires forced intervention, because somehow what we have is better than what we can do?
SNAFU and just accept it as a way of life?
I would like to believe that allowing even YOURSELF access to any of the aforementioned departments and agencies, that upon review of their operations you'd find amazing waste and offer a better P&L and national contribution to a solid R.O.I. than our current path and more so, our future.

I dont see the value in maintaining a belief in a system(s) that have been poor producers simply for the sake of status quo or and intimidating task of overhaul.



posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 08:01 PM
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Originally posted by zamo1993
The plan seems pretty simple to me.
When the revolution is over the goverment officials will be replaced (by vote) with people that are more wellsuited to lead.


How is this any different than the system we currently have in place? The very politicians you wish to depose were duly elected to their current positions by majority vote.

I disagree that the few organizations I listed are unnecessary or that I just want to argue.
I merely challenge attempts to dodge question in OP.



posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 08:06 PM
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nvm

[edit on 4-4-2010 by kinda kurious]




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