Originally posted by fedupofitall
reply to post by Merriman Weir
The English are rarely to blame? So after 800 or so years of oppression in Ireland ( Or "Island" as the OP says! 
) where so many innocent people
were murdered, when Irish rebels retaliated in an effort to reclaim what was rightfully theirs, they were unjustified? That England were the ones who
were f*cked over?
Come on now, you're living in la la land if thats what you think. It wasn't just the early years at the hands of Cromwell that innocents suffered,
but well into the 1900's. The black and tans were basically just ex-cons and murderers in uniform. My own great-grandmother was forcibly removed from
her home and watched it burn when she was a child for no other reason than she was Irish and alive.
Anyway, water under the bridge now. I'm from the Rebublic of Ireland, and believe me I have nothing against the English at all, but when people say
stupid things like that I would like to correct them. From what I've heard, English history books tend to forget the atrocities carried out by the
English invaders of Ireland, and I'm sure the same goes for Scotland and Wales, however I know nothing of their history really.
Also OP, you live next door......its IRELAND, not ISLAND. The irony of you correcting the Americans and you cant even spell your own country's name
nor part of the country it never left.
Sorry If I have misunderstood you, but I don't think I have tbh.
[edit on 3-4-2010 by fedupofitall]
[edit on 3-4-2010 by fedupofitall]
No, I meant in this sense:
First, Anglo-Saxons (the first English) are traditionally thought to have been invited into what's now known as mordern England by the indigenous
peoples to help defend them against attacks from what's now known as Scotland, Ireland (and I think Wales) following the vacuum left by the Romans.
There's already been masive plagues and climate change. The Anglo-Saxons then move in and there's probably a lot more assimilation than annihilation
of the local population. The Anglo-Saxons then don't really have anything to do with Ireland.
Lots of Viking attacks and settlement in what's slowly becoming England and lots of two-way fighting between what's now England and what's now
Scotland but lots of pushing down from the North. Lots of two-way stuff with Wales at this point too.
Then the Normans appear and this is where it gets interesting. Basically the Normans take England and Wales. They just about managed it by force (very
narrowly if you look at the Three Battles that year) but arguably, they'd already made big inroads through the Court. From that point on, England is
ruled by a Norman and French court. The Normans start buiding big castles across Wales as they start to do the same as they did the English.
It's at this time the 'English' start making designs on Ireland. However, contrary to what would-be Celts think, the English are actually a Norman
and French ruling class aided by Welsh armies in what's a similar scenario to what happened with the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons. Minor disposed
Irish king asks for help from both the Normans and the Pope (I think, I'm in a hurry here and typing against the clock!). Normans come over and,
apparently, it's the start of England oppressing the Irish.
Over the next couple of hundred years, the Norman court starts becoming French proper and the ties between here and the mainland increase and become
inextricable.
Then the House of Tudor comes on the scene and Welsh family ties-in with a French one and you get French-Welsh rulers of England and Wales.
Interestingly, it's at this point that the first plantations in Ireland appear. notice the distinct lack of the English here.
Roll on a few hundred years and the next set of plantations appear. Funnily enough, at this point in time there's a Scot ruling England.
And so it goes. Lots of European Royalty taking turns keeping the throne of England warm for the next barely-speaking English monarch. Eventually,
Scotland after a disastrous empire attempt elsewhere decides to throw in with the English crown for good, rather than just wait their turn like
everyone else in this monarchical musical chairs. Britain appears again, slightly different this time but once more referring to the Big Island.
Everything that's happened since really is more about Britain rather than England.
So again, I'm not sure where exactly the English are getting a look-in here. I see them taking the lion's share of the blame but not much else
really.
[edit on 3-4-2010 by Merriman Weir]
Always has to
be something vs something on ATS doesn't it? We can never just have a discussion. Though, granted, this was never going to be a completely civil and
relevant discussion right from the get-go.
) 
