Who founded Wicca, and was it planted by the NWO?

reply to post by Tiger5


Not sure if you replied to the right post there mate. although I do agree with you on the straightlaced part. and the esoteric traditions imerging in the mid victorian literati were certainly a good diversion from the norm. And yes most certainly I am sure there was some misuse of the great rite.

Although still today you still see petitioners more concerned about this than anything else. I have seen a few, and all were shown the door PDQ.

Originally posted by JakiusFogg
This here previous is a little like looking at the top of the iceberg and saying wow thats a large iceberg, then heading strait off for lunch without sticking your head under the water to see what else is there!

Lets keep this brief as it is a very involved.

The Modern form of Wicca, was officially coined in the 1950's after the repeal of the Witchcraft and Sorcery Act in the UK. At this time it became possible for Gardener and some of his contemporaries, some later, Alex and Marie Sanders, Doreen Valiente, And later Vivianne Crowley (NO RELATION) to publish books and articles on the subject of pagan practice belief.

That's a bit misleading though isn't it? Are you saying that no books about "pagan practice belief" had been published before then? Or were allowed to be published before then?

Wicca in itself comes under the umbrella term of paganism,

Whilst this is correct to an extent, I'd argue that it's becoming or become the other way around, all I see is neo-paganism dominated by Wicca and recast in Wicca's image. Consider the problems with terminology that the Wiccan-heavy 'Pagan Federation' sought to impose on it's aims and practices on the rest of the Pagan community a few years ago, even when they aren't applicable to other beliefs such as heathenry.

it name deriving from the old Aenglisch word for the wise.

Care to back that up? My Old English isn't fantastic by any means, but it's enough to know that this isn't true and a bit of misconception.

Although Wicca and its people so state that their religion is the oldest and has been around for millenia, this is true to a degree.

It's only true in the sense that Wicca is a Borg-belief and will assimilate anything that's not nailed down.

Wicca, and paganism is a pragmatic religion, that is constantly evolving and IS NOT PINNED on one text, NOR has ANY leaders,
Cheers

Jakius

Although out of all the pagans I've ever known, it tends to be Wiccans that like to collect leadership titles like other people collect loose change. I'd argue that paganism isn't necessarily evolving only certain aspects of it. Wicca evolves in that it appropriates and adapts, assimilates and steals whereas I'm not sure that's necessarily the case with other aspects of paganism particularly those that are desperate to distance themselves from a lot of what goes on within Wicca and its ilk. Wicca is not synonymous with paganism as the sentence about suggests although I've met plenty of Wiccans that assume this to be the case and that everything else is merely a different 'flavoured' form of Wicca.

[edit on 3-4-2010 by Merriman Weir]

Originally posted by JakiusFogg
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

Merriman, I just want to be clear on this. Did you just question how Romans fitted in with the History of the British Isles??? it sounded like you did!

if that is true, and without sarcasm, please Google Harians wall. Dewa, The Fosse Way, and Londinium.

I am sure this is just my eyes being strange though

Erm, no, and I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. What I actually asked was about the currency of the word 'venefica' or "venifica" as the other poster put it. Yes, I'm aware that it's a Latin phrase and that, obviously the Romans spoke and wrote in Latin. However, between the collapse of the Roman Empire and the use of Latin in the King James Bible and the Discoverie of Witchcraft and so on, there's over a 1000 years of the use of primative medicine. How much evidence is there for the use of 'venefica' in that 1000 years. I ask only because the other poster appears to be placing a lot of weight on the use of this word.

reply to post by St Udio

Wicca began in Britain, as such it can be seen as a form of the Romantic Movement, that is also evident in its poetic passages. The pre-Nazi Romantic Movement in Germany was also very strong, as a reaction to the growing Industrial Revolution. The brothers Grimm for example collected the folk tales of Little Red Riding Hood and others to save what they viewed as a disappearing folk culture. The Nazis later encouraged "volk" based rituals and beliefs. During the war there were also claims in Britain that patriotic "white witches" had saved England by over-coming Nazi occult forces. This had an impact on a revived "folk religion", and the time was right for it to be tolerated as patriotic, rather than perverse, even in stiff-necked 1950s Britain.

Without some more evidence of harm apart from critiques from the threatened Christian market, I'm wondering how it could have destroyed the fabric of US society? If anything it was popularized in the counter-culture to the Vietnam War - another jingoistic, right-wing adventure that destroyed thousands of families, and created widows, torn families and sent boys away to come home in a box. But that's what co-opted Christianity always does. It supports propaganda for war and slaughter and tears society apart, and then it points fingers to some minor movement elsewhere - go figure .

[edit on 3-4-2010 by halfoldman]

reply to post by Merriman Weir


WARNING ***RANT***


Note I said were able to. Yes there were publications prior to that, in the 1800's but were usually publish in the form of fiction / romanticism, and bought by a small group of upper class types. Additionally am talking in terms of the UK, after the repeal of the W&S Act 1542, first enacted by Henry VIII. before this is was a capital offense. and was last enforced in the UK during WWII.

So when I say it became possible for them to publish that is exactly what I say.

Quote from Wikipedia First line in Article "Witch"

"The word witch derives from the Old English nouns wicca /ˈwɪttʃɑ/ (masc.) "sorcerer, wizard" and wicce /ˈwɪttʃe/ (fem.) "sorceress, witch". The word's further origins in Proto-Germanic and Proto-Indo-European are unclear"

OK so maybe my line was a little fuzzy, but its early morning here!! hehehe

On the rest of your points. you will get no argument from me. indeed you support exactly what I was trying to say.

Wicca in it's modern for IS a hodge podge of everything that it has taken from "pure" forms of other traditions, you'll find no argument there.

However to say that Wicca is not a pagan tradition!!, Hmmmmm sorry, no sale.

OK yes so the Pagan federation IS highly wiccanised. so are the majority of practitioners in the UK. And yes there are people who like to collect titles, this stems from the Gard / Alex traditions of the 3 degrees!! and just becuase some people like to feel important in their own mind. IN the main these people are ignored. and there are several movement against the pagan federation for discrimination and harrassment, but note, membership to the PF is not mandatory, nor expected! There is also a large proportion of other traditions. in fact you will find many people that practice multiple traditions, not just one. and other that simple call themself pagan. So its not just about wicca. All wiccans are pagan , but not all pagan are wiccan. However on you point that you regard other pagan traditions as static? i would say you are misinformed. what you see as wiccans stealing, is the eclectic form. As I mention, you will find pagans who adopt multiple traditions, one of which may be wicca, But you cannot say that wicca goes around stealing. That would indicate that it is indeed a hierarchical structure with doctrine. SO I would say look at the practitioner and not the religion. this theory you propose is based on monotheistic dogmatic understanding. and I am sorry to tell you that it is misguided. there is nothing to say what we have to do. But know that whatever the tradition ALL pagans are joins in one tenant. Divinity of nature.

You have to understand that Wicca is a little like the entry level job of paganism, especially in the USA with the like of Silver Raven Wolf, which I personally find distastful, as it is akin to conversion, which IS NOT one of the tenants of belief

Yes, Wicca is constantly evolving. it has schism-ed so many times over the last 30 years. and this can be put down to the fact that it is an open, polytheistic tradition. there is no ONE Wicca. and yes there is NO one text. not in a sense like the bible. There are certain books and texts that are considered "mandatory" in the sense that they are the most comprehensive. But do they have HOLY status? NOOOOOOooooooOoOoo oh NO. this is it's strength, although is does seem confusing to outsiders, and can be perilous to the inexperienced.

you say you have spoken to many Wiccans, and that is fine. i am sure you will have more knowledge on it than most, and maybe you are very will read in 18th century literature and history. But until you have stood at the threshold, bound, and with a knife at your heart. Don't profess to tell me what my religion is and isn't.

I know what it is. I am well aware of that, I know of its origins in the 50's. I also know if it's heritage and pedigree. No it is not a pure form. Neither ir Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Shinto or any other religion. reason. Religion is what people hold to be true. and today is not the same as yesterday, nor will it be the same as tomorrow, but belief remains the same. practice changes.

Do I care that is takes parts from one tradition and another? No. as my old martial art Sensei used to say, if it works, use it. And wicca, my freind, in all it's forms, works. not in a hollywood fashion!, but seriously gets the job done.



[edit on 3/404/1010 by JakiusFogg]

[edit on 3/404/1010 by JakiusFogg]

[edit on 3/404/1010 by JakiusFogg]

[edit on 3/404/1010 by JakiusFogg]

reply to post by Merriman Weir


By the way merri, your "deconstruction" of my post was cheery picked in the finest political sense.

Job well done there, but do try and include the full sentence, which will show that what you are saying merely echos what I posted!

Gardiner "borrowed ideas" from Crowley only to the extent that he paid him to write the Book of Shadows. Aleister Crowley was vilified and persecuted by the Freemasons, the British government and the media of his day. It has also been alleged that the O.T.O. bumped him off in order to get the copyright to, and income from, his writings.

Originally posted by JakiusFogg
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

Note I said were able to. Yes there were publications prior to that, in the 1800's but were usually publish in the form of fiction, and bought by a small group of upper class types.

Quote from Wikipedia First line in Artical Witch

"The word witch derives from the Old English nouns wicca /ˈwɪttʃɑ/ (masc.) "sorcerer, wizard" and wicce /ˈwɪttʃe/ (fem.) "sorceress, witch". The word's further origins in Proto-Germanic and Proto-Indo-European are unclear"

Erm, didn't you say that it was "the old Aenglisch word for the wise"? The Old English adjective for wise isn't wicca or wicce.

OK so maybe my line was a little fuzzy, but its early morning here!! hehehe

However to say that Wicca is not a pagan tradition!!,

Perhaps it's earlier in the morning than you think as I didn't suggest that wicca wasn't a pagan religion. I'm not entirely sure how you came to that conclusion.

OK yes so the Pagan federation IS highly wiccanised. so are the majority of practioners in the UK. However there is also a large proportion of other traditions. in fact you will find many people that practice multiple traditions, not just one. and other that simple call themself pagan

The large proportion isn't large enough. As you admit yourself, it's highly 'wiccanised'. You'll also find that those who do practice "multiple traditions" will have wicca in common.

You have to understand that Wicca is a little like the entry level job of paganism, especially in the USA with the like of Silver Raven Wolf, which I personally find distastful, as it is akin to conversion, which IS NOT one of the tenants of belief

Unfortunately, a lot of the people that go through this 'entry level' system never really shake-off wicca and continue to see everything through a wiccan lens and all that might entail.

you say you have spoken to many wiccans, and that is fine. i am sure you will have more knowledge on it than most, and maybe you are very will read in 18th cerntury literature and history. But until you have stood at the threshold, bound, and with a knife at your heart. Don't profess to tell me what my religion is and isn't.

I can't tell you what it means to you personally, no - and I've never suggested that I could. I can, however, say how it interacts with other beliefs as well as history and so on - and that's all I've done.

Do I care that is takes parts from one tradition and another? No. as my old martial art Sensei used to say, if it works, use it. And wicca, my freind, in all it's forms, works. not in a hollywood fashion!, but seriously gets the job done.

This is the problem: you as an obviously eclectic wiccan don't care. Whereas the other practices that you're pilfering from often do care very much indeed.

Originally posted by JakiusFogg
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

By the way merri, your "deconstruction" of my post was cheery picked in the finest political sense.

Job well done there, but do try and include the full sentence, which will show that what you are saying merely echos what I posted!

I'm not sure what you mean. Can you elaborate as it wasn't my intention and I'm happy to rectify whatever I'm meant to have done.

reply to post by halfoldman

Hey there halfoldman,

Appologies in advance if this has already been added in the replies ... I confess that I have not read through all the posts.

People often get confused between the difference of >>>WICCE>WICCA>WICCE>WICCA

Wicca is modern.

It may take a dose of ancient beliefs, but it is a smorgasbord. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

The Christian based ideals is also not necessarily a bad thing. Most come from Judeo-Christian backgrounds and cultures.

Taking a bit of what is good about Christianity with you isn't a bad thing.

"Divine" stories have common themes. Christianity falls into several of those categories of stories - and therefore you will find resonances between traditions with "Christian-like" themes. Because Christianity itself has stories and themes which are common.

The cell structure of covens actually is a factor that would tend to lend some credibility to the possibility of a continued lineage with some folk-craft-religions and/or significant Masonic lineage. Cellular structured groups with limited knowledge of other groups but by a hierarchial few is a common way to hide groups.

Secret and mystery are two things that are being confabulated in this thread. You can know all of someone's secrets, you can know all of a groups "secrets" but you can certainly still miss the mystery.

Hence why Wicca is a mystery religion or practice.

Please note the religion or practice part of that sentence. The topic we are discussing can be either or both.

Not all the other pagan groups are necessarily mystery religions. Though most are.

It is not techically true to say that all Wiccans are do not believe is Satan. Though some don't. Satan falls well within the Destructor archetype.

The idea that Wiccan hierarchies are topped by Satanists falls into the logic circle that is the argument "all things not Christian are Satanist" circle of logic.

Most of the Wiccan groups are NOT exclusive to women. The hierarchies are not exclusive to women. Not even close to being true.

There appears to be some mix up in this thread assuming that women NOT being submissive means that men are. That is logically ridiculous.

While there are certainly female only groups, there are also male only groups, and homosexual only groups, and even heterosexual only groups. Most would fall into a mixed gender and mixed sexuality paradigm.

The "founding" witchcraft/wicca/pagan groups certainly did have a heavy concept of complementarian gender roles. More modern has more equality than complementarian gender concepts.


The charge that many pagans and Wiccans define themselves in regards to rebellion to Judeo-Christianity is true. This is a common affliction of anyone trying to define themselves away from an influence that is overpowering and exclusive. Coming from a cultural or familial background that tells you exclusively that you may believe there way or suffer an eternity of torment - and that that is "love" - can make people a tad bit pissed.


[edit on 2010/4/3 by Aeons]

reply to post by Merriman Weir


OK merri, After a couple cups of coffee it think it comes down to this.

The Wiccan practicioners habit of borrowing aspects of other traditions for their purpose. you say other traditions get upset.

OK lets look at it this way

What is Wicca?

Nor to the point what is it not?

it is NOT a dogmatic religion, it is not monotheistic, it has no singular holy text (neither does any other pagan tradition as far as I have seen) and it has NO comman structure (regardless of what some people claim "I am king of witches etc..."

There are some that say that the only wicca is the Gard Wicca.

But that is its self, as you point out is eclectic by its nature. High magick mix with craft of the wise. So if the practicioner, chooses to look at say Norse tradition, and apply that in his or her working, they would not necessarily do it in a wiccan ritual form. Although this has been known. However it is common (in the UK at least) for practitioners, to jump from one practice to another, one day they are Wicca doing witchcraft things. they next they are a tree hugging druid, just without the ritual sacrifice (yes they use to).

The point being that pagan traditional whatever they are share the same core tenants, polytheism and nature divinity. So when you are a polytheist, for some, I won't say all, it is very easy to work in cross traditions. and yes maybe some wiccas, just keep doing gard rituals and supplant various deitied. But that in itself is fine, because WICCA has NO sole dieties. WICCA is a system, a tool if you will.

Where as ther are others that find that they just like being druids, or Vikings, and that suits them fine. but I have honestly in all my 20 years doing this, ever heard of says a Shaman being pissed at a wiccan for using native American spirits. I even once heard of a wiccan calling on the Arch Angels as the watchtowers! to me strange, but hey.

And yes you are right I am eclectic. But I would say Eclectic Pagan (Seax-Wica / Norse) to be exact.

Originally posted by Tiger5

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by SteveR

 

Really I can barely function Skyclad in a summer night much less in bleak midwinter.

lol ... ain't that the truth ... I celebrate most of the Sabbats up on the moors (I live in North Yorkshire) so it's never really warm enough ... imagine trying to explain to a paramedic how/why you became hypothermic up on the moors at daft'o'clock at night ... I save the 'skyclad' rituals for my sacred space at home.

Woody

[edit on 3-4-2010 by woodwytch]

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


Thank you for your post.

I agree 100% and you are absolutely correct with you analysis of this topic.

Kudos for being one of the few people not blinded by their religious zealotry (yes Wiccans can be zealots too), and able to speak plainly about the subject without fear of their whines and criticisms.

Thank you for telling the truth.

reply to post by JakiusFogg


Jakius

You seem to be very much on point. I am a member of the PF and have seen it mutate well before the big split that led to the Pentacle. The PF was originally an antidefamation organisation when pagans were heavily discriminated against. I have just received my re subscription form and am frankly wondering how much more "fluffy wuffy" codswallop my stomach can take.

To be on point there has been such an explosion of books and media on Wicca and alternative religions that I believe it is easier to be eclectic wiccan or pagan.

Again I feel that the NWO may control certain lelments but It is a stretch tocontrol such a large and amorphous movement.

[edit on 3-4-2010 by Tiger5]

There isnt alot I could possibly add here. I think most of the bases have been covered. But to answer questions of the OP:


1. Gardner was an apprentice Mason. Basically, he joined but nothing ever came of it. He claimed to be a Master, and a part of the Scottish Rites. Both of these claims have no basis. He was however, good friends with some ranking Masons. You will find that throughout his life, he was caught in quite a few lies. Like having his doctorate degree. He also claimed to be accepted into a 'coven", but there is no substantial proof. Well...no proof beyond his wiki-page.

I often place Gardner in the same group as L Ron Hubbard. Whether you take offense to that or not, is up to you. If you research, you will find that he too, wrote some novels.

I strongly dislike people trying to make a buck off of people's belief systems.


2. Crowley was not a "satanist". he understood that there is not a "light" or "dark" side. There is only balance. Gardner borrowed alot from Crowley's works, obviously. But they certainly were not buddy-buddy. Gardner also borrowed from Thelema, The keys of Solomon, The Book of Names...etc. Gardner Claimed that crowley promoted him to the highest ranking official of the OTC. Some say that he paid off Crowley..etc.


An NWO plot?

If it is, it failed miserably.

reply to post by halfoldman

hey there halfoldman,

your post brings up a few thoughts... such as; did some sort of Karma give rise to both the 'wicca' revival in England/GB and the Nazi Occult in the German Bavaria area, as some sort of counterbalance flowing throughout our ordinary experience world. call it a spiritual realm, the etheric or Karmic realm.

the growing tensions brought about by the industrial revolution as you pointed out, made lots of people see things differently...some were of the mind, which we might later call 'excapism'-> in which a Magical thinking, and a country based lifestyle, led to a newer form of ancient Pagan thought and practice, revived as 'Wiccan'

Then there were the not so peaceful, excapists of a rural uncomplicated worldview...
Those were the power Occult people, who had a long exposure to mundane influences such as
the likes of Madame Blavatsky, the Theosophists, the Thule Society, the Nazi inner circle, getting traction from the likes of Noteable men like Nietzsche, Jung, Eckart... leading to such off-the-wall constructs as a Vril Force.


the larger global dynamics might suggest the hands-on interventions by business tycoons, Central bankers, Industrialists and the rest of the 'Illuminati'... was the cause & reason for the Nazi rise to power.
Perhaps there's a very subtile influence at work, which we overlook with our Pragmatic mindset



were these all random 'dots' needing to be deciphered by someone?
was the Wicca 'bloom' the counterpoint to the Occult 'thorn'


[just throwing stuff at the wall, & seeing if any of it sticks (has substance)]


thanks for listening

Originally posted by Merriman Weir

it name deriving from the old Aenglisch word for the wise.

Care to back that up? My Old English isn't fantastic by any means, but it's enough to know that this isn't true and a bit of misconception.

Actually, it comes from old English for "witch", according to the Oxford English Dictionary...

c890 Laws of Ælfred xxx, a fæmnan, e ewunia onfon ealdorcræftian, & scinlæcan, & wiccan.

Though its first use in a modern context was, in deed, Gardner in 1959...

reply to post by Tiger5


T'would be cool if the NWO did control the pagan religion. At l;east we would be safe from the red and blue lists, if not the PF egotistical manifesto!!

Originally posted by autowrench
reply to post by halfoldman

 

Being a Wiccan myself, I think Wicca as we know it today, is a continuation of ancient Pagan practices, rituals, and beliefs.

Christians think their religion has existed since before there were people to worship their particular name brand.

You're both wrong, of course. Wicca has very, very, VERY little in common with actual pagan practices, and most of what is common was actually adapted into Wicca after its establishment. Which leads to really annoying things, like how Aset, Freya, and Durga all get lumped into "The Goddess"

Gag.

The original meaning of the word meant "one who is wise,"

Actually, it means "sorcerer" - Wicca is a masculine noun. Wicce, the feminine, means witch. The "Wicc" part of both is pronounced as "wish." It's derived from the Brythonic "wyck" which means a grove of trees, and is derived from the same Indo-European root that gave "wald" to German (and from there, "weald" in English)

What the word means then, is someone who does stuff in a grove of trees. Since in early Britain, the main reason to go to a grove of trees was to either A) screw or B ) worship pre-Christian religions (actually these were usually the same thing) such people were labeled sorcerers by their christian neighbors, since of course, all the old gods were really just Satan.

Wizard is the word that means "wise one" - its root is the germanic wizare, meaning "wise"

so it is clear that just everyone cannot be a Wiccan, it takes intelligence and curiously to be able to study and absorb all of the material, and remember everything one needs to know, to practice, to operate.

it takes more brainpower to filter the pounds of scum from the ounces of useful, actually.

I know a few Wiccans, and believe me, I am so anti NWO it drips off me as I walk around. I would say also that it is the Christians/Muslims are wholly controlled by the NWO and all that is associated with that world domination group.

Christians and Muslims wish they controlled the world. The plain fact is, if I were part of a super-secret organization bent on world domination, you would avoid religion like the goddamned plague. it's just too damned chaotic, religious people are always killing everyone - Yeah, Wiccans aren't now, but put 'em in charge and see what happens.

[edit on 4-4-2010 by TheWalkingFox]