Christianity is a Conspiracy; ALL of you are going to HELL

Originally posted by MykahelTo restate, in summary, I believe the text is stating without need of "interpretation" that we all go to Sheol/Hades, but we do not all go to Hell/Gehenna/Lake of Fire. I think study into those words specifically shows this to be the truth of the matter. You disagree.

And yet he still will not get it, and probably never will, the hate is too deep.
I would argue a bit more on the Hades part but the dictionaries I have sort of disagree and state 'Grave' as primary definition. I would want to grasp it better in Greek Mythology to get a deeper meaning but that is another thread all to itself. I do believe that there is deeper meaning, especially since the Holy Spirit chose Tartarus in 2 Peter. I personally believe there is a connection with Greek mythology and the Bible, such as Titans etc. I do but after years of study, it is still a matter of interpretation.

reply to post by edsinger


" And yet he still will not get it, and probably never will, the hate is too deep.
I would argue a bit more on the Hades part but the dictionaries I have sort of disagree and state 'Grave' as primary definition. I would want to grasp it better in Greek Mythology to get a deeper meaning but that is another thread all to itself. I do believe that there is deeper meaning, especially since the Holy Spirit chose Tartarus in 2 Peter. I personally believe there is a connection with Greek mythology and the Bible, such as Titans etc. I do but after years of study, it is still a matter of interpretation. "

I don't recall saying that I hated you or anyone else . To the contrary , I have said more than once that I DON'T hate you for it .

If you can't kill the message , then kill the messenger ?

So , your dictionaries actually give credence to what I am saying . Interesting . You have known this for the duration of this thread and yet you are only now disclosing the fact that you were aware of this all along . Interesting .

And here you are expressing a desire to 'grasp' it better through greek mythology in order to get a deeper meaning . Interesting., seeing that I started this thread with the assertion that it has it's roots in greek mythology .

And in closing , you admit that it is still a matter of interpretation .

You should be ashamed of yourself edsinger , you spent your entire time on this thread trying to dis-credit me and cause others to look at me as though I have no learning . You even spent the entire time assuming that I am some pot-smoking teenager .

You spent all this time implying that you were so much more knowledgable in the topic being discussed.

And here you are , as the thread is coming to a close , saying the same thing that I started out with in the OP .

You should be ashamed , and I hope those who are still following this , are watching and reading now .

I'm through with you .

[edit on 13-4-2010 by okbmd]

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
I'm not going to derail this thread any further, but I suggest that you'd do a search around this here at ATS in order to come to your senses. Most, if not all your sources aren't valid in regard to what you suggest, and this page claims. Josephus is for example not valid, since his original work didn't include any mention of Jesjuah etc. and the list goes on. Though I believe Jesjuah ha Mesjiach bar Josuph of Nazareth, we lack sources outside the Gospel and the NT. It's just the way it is. Source criticism shows he hasn't been mentioned in single a valid text.

Excuse me? Come to my senses? Since you mentioned Josephus let's hear what one of the leading scholars of Josephus says:

One of the leading scholars, translators, and commentators on Josephus is Steve Mason. In his book on Josephus and the New Testament (Hendrickson:1992), he discusses the two references to Jesus in Josephus' writings, and concludes that "if it were needed", they would provide independent testimony to the existence of Jesus. He writes:
"Taking all of these problems into consideration, a few scholars have argued that the entire passage (the testimonium) as it stands in Josephus is a Christian forgery. The Christian scribes who copied the Jewish historian's writings thought it intolerable that he should have said nothing about Jesus and spliced the paragraph in where it might logically have stood, in Josephus' account of Pilate's tenure. Some scholars have suggested that Eusebius himself was the forger, since he was the first to produce the passage…Most critics, however, have been reluctant to go so far. They have noted that, in general, Christian copyists were quite conservative in transmitting texts. Nowhere else in all of Josephus' voluminous writings is there strong suspicion of scribal tampering. Christian copyists also transmitted the works of Philo, who said many things that might be elaborated in a Christian direction, but there is no evidence that in hundreds of years of transmission, the scribes inserted their own remarks into Philo's text. To be sure, many of the "pseudepigrapha" that exist now only in Christian form are thought to stem from Jewish originals, but in this instance it may reflect the thorough Christian rewriting of Jewish models, rather than scribal insertions. That discussion is ongoing among scholars. But in the cases of Philo and Josephus, whose writings are preserved in their original language and form, one is hard pressed to find a single example of serious scribal alteration. To have created the testimonium out of whole cloth would be an act of unparalleled scribal audacity." (p.170-171)

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
I am not going to go further with this, but I advise you'd read the context of these verses, and you'll see that your first quote is about the New Jerusalem, which will be built in orbit and descend upon finish, atleast 1000 years+ into the future. As for your other quotes, they make no sense, both in your quotes and seen in context. Show me proof that as much as a single person has departed from Earth to heaven (except the Koran's claim that Prophet Mohammed ("the blessed one"), after he died). As far as I know, only two people will ascend to the heavens after they've died, and they both come to life some time during 3.5 days after they died and came back to life.

They are in context. The first quote is about our body. It's not hard to figure out what Paul is saying. When we are absent from our body we are present with the Lord. We have eternal life when we accept Christ.
Jesus departed from the earth to Heaven.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
But let's stay on topic in respect of this thread's OP. Search ATS for answers to these questions, and you'll see unrefutable proof that none of Shaul Paulus' quotes are valid. It is my sincere belief that Sjaul Paulus was a double agent working for the Sanhedrin and the Pharicees, working to stop the Chriastians from having influence on Israel's politics and ecclasiastical system.

The burden of proof that Paul's quotes are not valid is on you and the double agent statement. Even critical scholars believe that Paul wrote some of his letters.


[edit on 4/13/2010 by texastig]

Originally posted by okbmdI don't recall saying that I hated you or anyone else . To the contrary , I have said more than once that I DON'T hate you for it .

Its not me that you hate, its Christianity that you hate.

Originally posted by okbmdSo , your dictionaries actually give credence to what I am saying . Interesting . You have known this for the duration of this thread and yet you are only now disclosing the fact that you were aware of this all along . Interesting .

No, I said that one definition of Hades matches the grave, not the others. I even showed multiple definitions of Hades.

Originally posted by okbmdAnd here you are expressing a desire to 'grasp' it better through Greek mythology in order to get a deeper meaning . Interesting., seeing that I started this thread with the assertion that it has it's roots in Greek mythology .

That was for the meaning of Hades and its relation to Tartarus. The NT was written in Greek and therefore it used some of the same symbolism.

Originally posted by okbmdAnd in closing , you admit that it is still a matter of interpretation .

No, just that Hades and the reason it was interpreted as Hell as was many of the others in the KJV.

Originally posted by okbmdYou should be ashamed of yourself edsinger , you spent your entire time on this thread trying to dis-credit me and cause others to look at me as though I have no learning . You even spent the entire time assuming that I am some pot-smoking teenager .

Oh I am not ashamed for proving you wrong, but of calling you a pot smoking teen, yeah that was overboard on my part and I admit it.

Originally posted by okbmdYou spent all this time implying that you were so much more knowledgable in the topic being discussed.

Well actually I have studied this subject for quite a long time and that is why I responded to this thread, to show your logic was flawed, which I did along with others.

Originally posted by okbmdAnd here you are , as the thread is coming to a close , saying the same thing that I started out with in the OP .

Can you not read? I guess not because that is not what I said. I showed the premise of the thread was flawed and in pardon the pun grave error. Only with Sheol would it be close and as far as Hades, that is a bit more in need of definition, hence the reference to Mythology.

Originally posted by okbmdYou should be ashamed , and I hope those who are still following this , are watching and reading now .

I hope they are also, nothing had changed. They that are reading it probably are still waiting for you to answer the questions about lake of fire, abyss, Tartarus, eternal damnation in Gehenna etc etc. You still skirt the questions.



And one more for your theory,

Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

So the sea is also Hades? Hmm

Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
Rev 20:15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

How can one throw the grave into the grave?

[edit on 13-4-2010 by edsinger]

reply to post by edsinger


Here you are , still manipulating words . Accusing me of saying things I haven't said .

Show me where I ever said the lake of fire was Gehenna . Come on smart guy , show me and everyone else here , where I ever said that .

After you fail at that , I will even give you another shot at redeeming your self-professed credibility .

Are you ready for round two , oh wise one ?

Okay , now SHOW me and everyone else here where I ever said that the lake of fire was the grave !!!

Come on , oh speaker of falsehoods , we're waiting ...

You weren't smart enough to realize it all through this thread , but this is the moment I have been waiting for .

You have spent this entire thread failing to and refusing to comprehend what was contained in my OP , simply because you are so puffed-up with pride in your assumption that you know and understand scripture so much better than anyone else .

I'm calling you out on this one , wise man .

But first , I want you to show the audience where I said what you have accused me of saying .

The truth always reveals itself . You , in your determination to appear so much wiser , have just shot yourself in the foot .

Come on , we all want to know where it was that I said those things .

After that , I'm going to take you to school on a few things . This is exactly what I have waited for .

[edit on 13-4-2010 by okbmd]


I don't recall saying that I hate christianity either .

I am here to DENY IGNORANCE .

[edit on 13-4-2010 by okbmd]

You haven't proven me wrong , so please stop saying that until you do .


[edit on 13-4-2010 by okbmd]

reply to post by okbmd


Ok, this is my official last post here, and I will not return. If anyone has anything to say to me, they can find me in another thread or send me a U2U.

Your last post was filled with nothing but insults. This entire time we have been admitting to the similarities in Greek mythology and the text of the New Testament while still trying to show you that Hell and Hades (possibly Sheol) are not the same. You just now noticed it because you have been so full of pride and arrogance that anything we said at all must have been pure folly since you are the great wise one.

Get over yourself. Makes it much easier to get along with people and have a civil and informative conversation.

Bye.

This thread is degenerating into something no one wants.

The personal references stop now. Debate the topic, not each other.

TheRedneck
ATS Forum Moderator

Originally posted by okbmdShow me where I ever said the lake of fire was Gehenna . Come on smart guy , show me and everyone else here , where I ever said that .

Ok maybe not exactly, since in some places in the Bible Gehenna is translated a "Hell", you claim [BELOW]

Originally posted by okbmdWE ARE ALL GOING TO HELL ...

Originally posted by okbmdOkay , now SHOW me and everyone else here where I ever said that the lake of fire was the grave !!!

Since the concept of "Hell" is a place of eternal punishment, as is Lake of fire, (Same concept) you state [BELOW]

Originally posted by okbmdWE ARE ALL GOING TO HELL ...

Originally posted by okbmdAfter that , I'm going to take you to school on a few things . This is exactly what I have waited for .

OK school me then. Give it your best shot, as you haven't done such a good job yet.

Originally posted by okbmd I don't recall saying that I hate christianity either .

No, I said you did and here is why,

Originally posted by okbmd

Christianity is a Conspiracy; ALL of you are going to HELL

Next : The church is the anti-christ , and God is all in your head ...

It sure doesn't appear that you like it very much, picking titles such as this. Inflammatory posts to get the post count up. It worked.

Originally posted by okbmdYou haven't proven me wrong , so please stop saying that until you do .

Well I don't see anyone arguing that I haven't except you. Plus, I know that I have, I don't need your confirmation.


Btw, Jesus loves you too.

reply to post by edsinger


Like I said , you have accused me of things I never said . You can twist it as much as you like , but at least now everyone knows that you haven't been truthful in your posts . Kinda brings your credibility into question .

If you manipulate one part of your argument with character assassination , then it diminishes the credibilty of the rest of your argument .

Hell , by all obvious definitions and findings , is the grave . It is not the lake of fire .

Rev.20:14 ... And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire...

This proves hell is not the lake of fire . How absurd would it be to say that 'the lake of fire was cast into the lake of fire' ?

Doesn't make sense at all , does it ? Now , if we suppose that hell is a translation for 'grave' , then we have ...'death and the grave were cast into the lake of fire' .

Makes sense that way , doesn't it ? "And death and the grave were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death ."

Death : extinction or destruction (Random House Dictionary).

Once cast into the lake of fire , death and the grave are destroyed and become extinct . This is the final DEATH of those two.

After this , there is no more death and there is no more grave .

It is appointed unto man once to die... , everyone has at least one appointment with death . Everyone is going to the grave (hell).

Rev.20:10 ... And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone , where the beast and false prophet are , and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever .

The devil , the beast , and the false prophet are to be tormented forever .
Read that again and show me where ANYONE , other than those three , are facing eternity in the lake of fire .

Rev.20:15 ... And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire .
Now show me where it says that those people are going to be tormented for eternity in this lake of fire . It doesn't .

Rev.21:8 ... But the fearful , and unbelieving , and the abominable , and murderers , and whoremongers , and sorcerers , and idolaters , and ALL liars , shall have THEIR PART in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone : which is the second DEATH .

Rev.21:4 ... and there shall be no more death , neither sorrow , nor crying , neither shall there be any more PAIN : for the former things are passed away .

Doesn't appear to me that those people who were cast into the lake of fire are suffering much... Could it be that they have suffered the second DEATH ? They are NO MORE ?

Matthew 25:41... Then shall he say unto them on the left hand , Depart from me , ye cursed , into evrlasting fire , PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS .

Again , the fire is eternal . Nothing here that would indicate these people were facing eternal torment . The devil and his angels are the only ones to face eternal torment (see above) .

Matthew 25:46 ... And these shall go away into everlasting PUNISHMENT ; but the righteous into life eternal .

This is always my favorite verse for showing the outright lie that the churches are using to scare people into believing that they face an eternity of torment in the lake of fire . You know what they say ... save the best for last ...

Now , let's study that verse there . It says PUNISHMENT . Young's analytical concordance defines it as 'restraint' . Random House defines 'restrain' as (1) to hold back from action (2) to limit or hamper .

You or someone said it earlier : seperation from God . Restrained from God . THAT is their punishment , NOT eternal suffering . Eternal destruction/extinction/restraint . Eternal SEPERATION from God . Eternal DEATH .

Let's look at that verse again . On the one hand , you have punishment ., on the other hand , you have " life eternal" .

"...Punishment ; but ...LIFE ETERNAL .

Now , let's turn it around and look at it from another angle . On the one hand , you have life eternal and on the other hand , you have punishment .

"...LIFE eternal ; but ... punishment .

It should be clear to anyone that this verse represents two distinct OPPOSITES . On one side , you have the good guys who get eternal life , while on the other side , the bad guys get everlasting punihment .

This would be clear to anyone whose mind isn't closed .

You've got eternal life versus eternal punishment .The punishment cannot represent a conscious awareness of being punished or tormented , otherwise it would also be a form of eternal life .

This is not even close to what the verse implies . On the one hand you have X ; on the other hand you have LIFE .

X = eternal death .

We are all going to hell . Enjoy your conspiracy .

[edit on 15-4-2010 by okbmd]

[edit on 15-4-2010 by okbmd]

reply to post by edsinger


"... but good deeds don't get you to Heaven. "


Explain this to me then , as I'm sure you have a 'solution' for this too .

Rev.20:12 ...and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books , according to their WORKS .

Rev.20:13 ... and they were judged every man according to their WORKS .

Hmmm , this would seem to contradict your statement .

It doesn't appear to say that anyone will be judged according to their BELIEFS , but rather , according to there WORKS .

Must have been pretty relevant , to state it twice , in two consecutive verses .

reply to post by edsinger


"... its Christianity that you hate ."

So , because one questions the validity of the story , that makes them a hater ?

If one attempts to show the false teaching , then they are a hater ?

If I expose the hazards of drug abuse , then I am a hater of drugs ?

If I question the story of santa claus , then I hate santa claus ?

Your statement is absurd , and but another attempt to discredit anything I have to say .

reply to post by okbmd


Just to elaborate a little on the Matthew Judgement Scenario. The quote which has been used by the Church to make zillions of dollars worth in property and gold through selling "letters of indulgence" during the Dark Ages. The closing phrase which the NIV translates into:

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The word translated "into" here, eis (underlined), has a wide range of possible translations, 16 different translations only in the KJV. One of the most common in NIV would be simply FOR, in the sense "AS" or even "WHICH IS" reflecting the ABSOLUTE NATURE of the judgement, perhaps showing what would be the result of such conduct as is discribed as an eternal precedence or practice of Law, for all concievable future, which would give the following possible, though less lucrative, translation:

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away FOR an eternal punishment. But the righteous TOWARDS eternal life.

The preposition Eis reflects of what importance the punishment is for the future, and in this case I don't see why or how anyone can ever be punnished forever when they are already dead, the way the Church wants it with descriptions of layers of Hell with all kinds of ground hog day torture. No. It is the very act of deleting their names from the Book of Life which is an everlasting testimony and punishment, and possibly pointing towards an eternal understanding of the Law of God, showing that not in a million years after the judgement can people think that they'll get away with walking away from suffering without giving a helping hand, they will not suffer eternally in a physical or psychological sense, other than being executed, which by the way is severe enough. No need to occupy the engels of God or the Good Son himself with breathtaking torture the Catholic way. It is being killed which is the eternal punishment -- in itself -- that they will be cut off, left behind, have their existance removed from the genepool, thus not be given the possibility to live on into eternity to receive eternal life and get to live with God.

[edit on 16/4/2010 by Neo Christian Mystic]

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


Once again , you sir , have delivered in a most spectacular way .

I can only surmise that people still follow and adhere to the nonsense due to a real lack of understanding , or fear .

reply to post by okbmd


Well, thanks mate, I find your own sentiments in regard to the different translations into Hell etc. quite encouraging and well founded too

Most people, way above 90% I guess, of all those reading the Bible have no idea what is really written and what happens when you translate a text into a another language, and what possible complications may occur. I suggest everyone find a decent interlinear bible before even starting to discussing the essence of the books they hold so dear. For there is just way too much at stake when delving into the often paradoxal and inconsistant realms of the Biblical texts. One relatively good and free one can be found at www.biblestudytools.com... where they have also made available a vast library of commentaries, dictionaries and lexica etc. where you can dive as deep down as you'd need in order to fully understand what it is we are reading. Up through the centuries since the texts first surfaced, Church policy and theology has gone through many directly antichristian periods, and I still haven't been able to find a single Bible which can be called correct. Not even the source texts agree with eachother, and most of the differencies are quite crusial, though they might seem like petty details for some, they may have meant the difference between life and death for a great many people up through the ages and has made a great many people speak with deceit they are not even aware of themselves. One day, way into the future, as the result of a life dedicated to language and religion, I will deliver my own translation as an attempt at cleaning up a bit. It won't be perfect, but I believe it will be far better than the available translations, free from Theology and dogmatic policies and doctrines, sacraments and what not. A new text based on the same old texts, but with a wording which will set free rather than protect a system of categorical damnation. The Gospel is supposed to be Good News, not a Tool for Damnation. But right now I am more concerned with the Fire and Brimstone in Iceland grounding the planes over here leaving a gray layer of ash on my porch making my cat sneeze than writing my own edition of the Bible....

Originally posted by okbmdLike I said , you have accused me of things I never said . You can twist it as much as you like , but at least now everyone knows that you haven't been truthful in your posts . Kinda brings your credibility into question .

Not really, I never claimed you said them.

Originally posted by okbmd

Rev.20:10 ... And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone , where the beast and false prophet are , and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever .

The devil , the beast , and the false prophet are to be tormented forever .
Read that again and show me where ANYONE , other than those three , are facing eternity in the lake of fire .

Rev.20:15 ... And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire .



Now show me where it says that those people are going to be tormented for eternity in this lake of fire . It doesn't .

You did it for me. see Italics above

Originally posted by okbmdExplain this to me then , as I'm sure you have a 'solution' for this too .

Rev.20:12 ...and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books , according to their WORKS
Must have been pretty relevant , to state it twice , in two consecutive verses .

Well your understanding of Grace is lacking, will I be judged for my actions? Yes. Will I pay the penalty of those actions per se? No, Christ paid the price for my sins and yours. That is the while point. There are still consequences for sin, but eternity with my Creator is guaranteed because I choose to believe. Will I be a janitor in heaven or a street sweeper? I dunno, but I will be there and not in the Lake of Fire.

You seem to grasp that one (LOF), that is what Hell mostly means, not grave. In the parts of the Bible where Sheol was translated as such, it was not the correct translation.

Originally posted by okbmd

"... its Christianity that you hate ."

So , because one questions the validity of the story , that makes them a hater ?

If one attempts to show the false teaching , then they are a hater ?

If I expose the hazards of drug abuse , then I am a hater of drugs ?

If I question the story of santa claus , then I hate santa claus ?

Your statement is absurd , and but another attempt to discredit anything I have to say .

If you post a title just trying to inflame by the sheer title of a thread, it tends to insinuate that you hate your target. So take it it for what you want...

Originally posted by edsinger

You did it for me. see Italics above

I could be wrong, but I DON'T think the OP argues the point that people will be thrown in the lake of fire. I think what he is saying is that they won't burn forever like Satan will. It's my understanding that what he's saying is that the sinners will be thrown in and burned up instantly. This punishment will be everlasting because they will be gone forever, to never return.

reply to post by edsinger


You're still dancing in circles and skirting the issue by not addressing the verses I have quoted to you above .

Interesting that you have tried to disect and pick apart everything I had said up to this point , but now you fail to address my latest presentation . Hmmm ....

If you can't refute any of it , just say so and be done with it .

Show me where it says that people are going to be tormented throughout eternity in a lake of fire , and I will bow out gracefully and declare you the better man in this debate .

That's all I ask of you , show me where it says that and I will start a new thread stating that I was wrong and give you a public apology.


Only one stipulation however , you must also prove that HELL is the lake of fire . Otherwise I stand by my OP ... we are all going to hell .



[edit on 16-4-2010 by okbmd]

reply to post by Hydroman


Thank you very much for making that post .

That is exactly what I have been saying all along .

edsinger knows that and refuses to acknowledge that is what I am saying ., while also refusing to acknowledge that is what scripture is saying .