Christianity is a Conspiracy; ALL of you are going to HELL

reply to post by edsinger


Yep , another one of those that have it all figured out , because it's in the bible . You somehow remind me of the taste of sour milk . Someone tells me 'yes it's good' when it is clear to me that it isn't .

No , don't kid yourself you little jesus follower you ., you haven't refuted anything .

The only thing you have accomplished is to remind me of how much I REALLY don't care to be associated with religious victims such as yourself .

Go back to sleep .

Originally posted by okbmdYep , another one of those that have it all figured out , because it's in the bible . You somehow remind me of the taste of sour milk . Someone tells me 'yes it's good' when it is clear to me that it isn't .

You remind me of the guys I saw in college smokin the Jane and figuring out that it was cool to be "anti" anything. I called them nerds and geeks, but that would not apply to you. They could read.

Originally posted by okbmdNo , don't kid yourself you little jesus follower you ., you haven't refuted anything .

Maybe not in your eyes. Let me try one more time, for the mentally short a few cells..

You say we are all going to hell. I refuted that easily, the only argument you had is maybe we all go to Sheol, others here even explained it to you in greater detail and yet you refuse to listen. You don't speak Hebrew nor Greek and apparently obvious to even the most casual of observers do not know how to use translations to understand the crap you spout. I will explain it to you no more..Smoke another doobie, exams are coming up.

Originally posted by okbmdThe only thing you have accomplished is to remind me of how much I REALLY don't care to be associated with religious victims such as yourself .

Victim? Dude, you are a joke, pitiful one at that. Worship your trees or whatever it is you do, but to call me a victim is absurd.

Originally posted by okbmdGo back to sleep .

Sleep? Oh, not at all, awake indeed.........but you, your heart is hardened and I pray that you can loose your pride and maybe get a glimpse of what Eternity means.

reply to post by edsinger


...mary-jane, doobie, tree-worship ... Yea, I'm startin' to feel ya' now dude.

Just what part of sheol=grave ,sheol=unseen , sheol=pit , hell=conceal/cover , hell=Gehenna=Valley of Hinnom ... do you not understand ?

Me thinks maybe you should quit bogartin' and pass that on around your lil' circle of squirrels there buddy.

It is pointless to talk to you , because you will never 'get it' . Your mind is a dumplin' already ., that is irreversable .

Out of all the posts here , you are the only one that exemplifies exactly what my point is in this thread . So , you have a wonderful life . I don't hate you for your beliefs , I don't want to change you , I don't hold it against you .

Believe what you will , I have no problem with you on any personal level ., I have a problem with those of your leanings that go around bashing those of us who think with our own minds .

Wouldn't hurt you none to get yourself a good biblical concordance and maybe a Greek Lexicon .

And please don't pray for me , it offends me . How would you like it if I told you I would work up a little majic for you ? Or cast a spell of blessing for you ?

Can you hear me now ?

Originally posted by okbmd
...mary-jane, doobie, tree-worship ... Yea, I'm startin' to feel ya' now dude.

I thought you would...

Originally posted by okbmdJust what part of sheol=grave ,sheol=unseen , sheol=pit , hell=conceal/cover , hell=Gehenna=Valley of Hinnom ... do you not understand ?

Oh I get it, yet YOU don't seem to. In your descriptions you fail to address Tartarus, other than a quick jab, you don't address the abyss. You fail to answer the questions of others in which Christ describes "hell', you only dwell on your definition of such. You seem to forget the translations and difficulty of such and translating an idea.

Originally posted by okbmdMe thinks maybe you should quit bogartin' and pass that on around your lil' circle of squirrels there buddy.

Oh ok then...duh.

Originally posted by okbmdIt is pointless to talk to you , because you will never 'get it' . Your mind is a dumplin' already ., that is irreversable .

Yes a dumpling, it is true in the same regard for me talking to you. You are blinded, so be it.

Originally posted by okbmdOut of all the posts here , you are the only one that exemplifies exactly what my point is in this thread . So , you have a wonderful life . I don't hate you for your beliefs , I don't want to change you , I don't hold it against you .

And you still don't get it. You said you couldn't be rebuffed and you were and now you bloviate...

Originally posted by okbmdBelieve what you will , I have no problem with you on any personal level ., I have a problem with those of your leanings that go around bashing those of us who think with our own minds .

Oh same here, I have no issue with you personally but I do have issue with a title like this thread, when so many young are perceptible to believe your warped sense of Biblical meaning. It needed perspective.

Originally posted by okbmdWouldn't hurt you none to get yourself a good biblical concordance and maybe a Greek Lexicon .

How many do you own? I told you, I have studied this EXACT Subject across many books. If you know a person of the Jewish faith, please by all means ask them to explain the concept of Sheol to you. It is not hell as Christians are sometimes thought, but how you can turn that into we all are going to hell shows your lack of understanding of the basic meaning of it. How can the grave be gnashing of teeth?

Originally posted by okbmdAnd please don't pray for me , it offends me . How would you like it if I told you I would work up a little majic for you ? Or cast a spell of blessing for you ?

When I pray for ALL unbelievers, you by default are lumped in that. magic? would that be black or white? Oh wait there is no difference in the two. Your spells are irrelevant to me, so knock your self out.

Originally posted by okbmdCan you hear me now ?

You have Verizon?

Originally posted by edsinger

Originally posted by okbmd

Just what part of sheol=grave ,sheol=unseen , sheol=pit , hell=conceal/cover , hell=Gehenna=Valley of Hinnom ... do you not understand ?

Oh I get it, yet YOU don't seem to. In your descriptions you fail to address Tartarus, other than a quick jab, you don't address the abyss. You fail to answer the questions of others in which Christ describes "hell', you only dwell on your definition of such. You seem to forget the translations and difficulty of such and translating an idea.

Exactly where in the Catholic canon is Tartarus mentioned? Ohthought so. It belongs to Coptic Gnostic writings, most of which available today was found in Egypt, they were among the multitude of heretics so declared by the powers leading up to the Catholic Church. Maybe we should also concider hollow Earth theory and all the people screaming in agony in those Russian sound recordings made from the place down there? What would be an appropriate word for that place? This is about linguistics and correctness in using and discerning between different concepts such as She'ol ("Land of Death" or simply "the Grave") and Ben Hinnom (Gehenna -- an actual valley outside the walls of Jerusalem). What you don't seem to being willing to address here is that these places are of different semantic meansing, being they are completely different concepts, and they are also of completely different etymology or origin. The concept of Hell in a modern sense, and akin to the understanding to the Apocalupse's Lake of Fire, was introduced in the Book of Enoch, possibly resting on ancient Egyptian texts explaining how God (yes Thoth among others spoke of the One God even) would first bring a deludge of waters (the Flood) and in the endtime he would bring a deludge of Fire (The Lake of Fire), and this was why the ancient Egyptians wrote their texts in two versions, one on wood to survive the Flood and another on clay or rock to survive the Fire. She'ol on the other hand is an ancient concept within the Hebrew language and culture, having to do with the afterlife. This may also have been influenced by the ancient Egyptians, with their elaborate stories and systems of an afterlife. Reading the Papyrus of Ani one would perhaps also notice the concept of the Sea of Reeds. Where was it Mosjeh divided the sea again?

reply to post by edsinger


when so many young are perceptible to believe your warped sense of Biblical meaning.

My point exactly ...

reply to post by okbmd


In effect English translations of the bible like KJV says that every soul who dies end up in Hell. According to KJV Abraham and Lazarus are in Hell, although the Greek text clearly states that the word transled Hell is infact to be translated "Land of Death" or Gr. Hades or Heb. She'ol. The full passage can be read below:

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores , 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass , that the beggar died , and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died , and was buried ; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said , Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said , Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted , and thou art tormented . 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed : so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot ; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said , I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said , Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent . 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded , though one rose from the dead.

In King James' New Testament as many as 10 -- t e n -- instances of Hades or She'ol are mistranslated into Hell, when it should be translated Death or similar.

One example:
KJV Revelation 6:8 And I looked , and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.

A more correct translation of the same verse would be:
Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale yellow horse. The rider's name was Death, and the dead followed him.

[edit on 6/4/2010 by Neo Christian Mystic]

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic


Exactly where in the Catholic canon is Tartarus mentioned? Ohthought so. It belongs to Coptic Gnostic writings,

Ok, here

******************
2Pe 2:4

(ACV) For if God did not spare heavenly agents who sinned, but delivered them up to chains of darkness, having been cast into hell being reserved for judgment,

(AESV Torah)

(AMP) For God did not [even] spare angels that sinned, but cast them into hell, delivering them to be kept there in pits of gloom till the judgment and their doom.

(ASV) For if God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

(BHS+)

(VW) For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

(Bishops) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them downe into hell, and delyuered them into chaynes of darknesse, to be kept vnto iudgement:


(CEV) God did not have pity on the angels that sinned. He had them tied up and thrown into the dark pits of hell until the time of judgment.

(CLV) For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging;

(clVulgate) Si enim Deus angelis peccantibus non pepercit, sed rudentibus inferni detractos in tartarum tradidit cruciandos, in judicium reservari.

(CENT) For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

(Complete Apostles' Bible) For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but rather confined them to Tartarus, and delivered them into chains of darkness, reserved for judgment;

(Mace) for since God did not spare the angels, who had sinned, but having precipitated them to hell, confin'd them to chains of darkness, where they are reserv'd for judgment:

(Darby) For if God spared not the angels who had sinned, but having cast them down to the deepest pit of gloom has delivered them to chains of darkness to be kept for judgment;

(cjb) For God did not spare the angels who sinned; on the contrary, he put them in gloomy dungeons lower than Sh'ol to be held for judgment.

(ERV) When angels sinned, God did not let them go free without punishment. No! God sent them to hell. God put those angels in caves of darkness. They are being held there until the judgment.

(ESV) For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

(Etheridge) For if Aloha upon the angels who sinned was not lenient, but in chains of darkness shut them in the deeps, and delivered them to be kept to the judgment of pain;

(LBP) God did not spare the angels, who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for tormenting judgment;

(EVID) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved to judgment; [a]

(GB) For if God spared not the Angels that had sinned, but cast them downe into hell, and deliuered them into chaines of darkenes, to be kept vnto damnation:

(Geneva) For if God spared not the Angels that had sinned, but cast them downe into hell, and deliuered them into chaines of darkenes, to be kept vnto damnation:

(GNB) God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell, where they are kept chained in darkness, waiting for the Day of Judgment.

(GNT+) ει1487 COND γαρ1063 CONJ ο3588 T-NSM θεος2316 N-NSM αγγελων32 N-GPM αμαρτησαντων264 V-AAP-GPM ουκ3756 PRT-N εφεισατο5339 V-ADI-3S αλλα235 CONJ σειραις4577 N-DPF ζοφου2217 N-GSM ταρταρωσας5020 V-AAP-NSM παρεδωκεν3860 V-AAI-3S εις1519 PREP κρισιν2920 N-ASF τηρουμενους5083 V-PPP-APM

(GNT-BYZ+) ειG1487 COND γαρG1063 CONJ οG3588 T-NSM θεοςG2316 N-NSM αγγελωνG32 N-GPM αμαρτησαντωνG264 V-AAP-GPM ουκG3756 PRT-N εφεισατοG5339 V-ADI-3S αλλαG235 CONJ σειραιςG4577 N-DPF ζοφουG2217 N-GSM ταρταρωσαςG5020 V-AAP-NSM παρεδωκενG3860 V-AAI-3S ειςG1519 PREP κρισινG2920 N-ASF τηρουμενουςG5083 V-PPP-APM

(GNT-TR) ει γαρ ο θεος αγγελων αμαρτησαντων ουκ εφεισατο αλλα σειραις ζοφου ταρταρωσας παρεδωκεν εις κρισιν τετηρημενους

(GNT-TR+) ει1487 COND γαρ1063 CONJ ο3588 T-NSM θεος2316 N-NSM αγγελων32 N-GPM αμαρτησαντων264 V-AAP-GPM ουκ3756 PRT-N εφεισατο5339 V-ADI-3S αλλα235 CONJ σειραις4577 N-DPF ζοφου2217 N-GSM ταρταρωσας5020 V-AAP-NSM παρεδωκεν3860 V-AAI-3S εις1519 PREP κρισιν2920 N-ASF τετηρημενους5083 V-RPP-APM

(GNT-V) ει γαρ ο θεος αγγελων αμαρτησαντων ουκ εφεισατο αλλα σειραις ζοφου ταρταρωσας παρεδωκεν εις κρισιν BAτηρουμενους TSτετηρημενους

(GNT-WH+) ειG1487 COND γαρG1063 CONJ οG3588 T-NSM θεοςG2316 N-NSM αγγελωνG32 N-GPM αμαρτησαντωνG264 V-AAP-GPM ουκG3756 PRT-N εφεισατοG5339 V-ADI-3S αλλαG235 CONJ | σειροιςG4577 N-DPM | σειραιςG4577 N-DPF | ζοφουG2217 N-GSM ταρταρωσαςG5020 V-AAP-NSM παρεδωκενG3860 V-AAI-3S ειςG1519 PREP κρισινG2920 N-ASF τηρουμενουςG5083 V-PPP-APM

(IGNT+) ειG1487 γαρG1063 οG3588 FOR IF θεοςG2316 GOD αγγελωνG32 "THE" ANGELS αμαρτησαντωνG264 [G5660] WHO SINNED ουκG3756 εφεισατοG5339 [G5662] SPARED NOT, αλλαG235 BUT σειραιςG4577 TO CHAINS ζοφουG2217 OF DARKNESS HAVING ταρταρωσαςG5020 [G5660] CAST "THEM" TO THE DEEPEST ABYSS παρεδωκενG3860 [G5656] DELIVERED "THEM" ειςG1519 FOR κρισινG2920 JUDGMENT τετηρημενουςG5083 [G5772] HAVING BEEN KEPT;

(G-NT-TR (Steph)+) ει if 1487 COND γαρ For 1063 CONJ ο 3588 T-NSM θεος God 2316 N-NSM αγγελων the angels 32 N-GPM αμαρτησαντων that sinned 264 V-AAP-GPM ουκ not 3756 PRT-N εφεισατο spared 5339 V-ADI-3S αλλα but 235 CONJ σειραις into chains 4577 N-DPF ζοφου of darkness 2217 N-GSM ταρταρωσας cast down to hell 5020 V-AAP-NSM παρεδωκεν and delivered 3860 V-AAI-3S εις unto 1519 PREP κρισιν judgment 2920 N-ASF τετηρημενους to be reserved, 5083 V-RPP-APM

(GSB) Denn wenn Gott die Engel, die gesündigt hatten, nicht verschonte, sondern sie in Banden der Finsternis der Hölle übergab, um sie zum Gericht aufzubehalten,

(GW) God didn't spare angels who sinned. He threw them into hell, where he has secured them with chains of darkness and is holding them for judgment.

(HCSB) For if God didn't spare the angels who sinned, but threw them down into Tartarus and delivered them to be kept in chains of darkness until judgment;

(HNT) כי לא־חס אלהים על־המלאכים אשר חטאו כי אם־הורידם לקצבי הרים ויסגירם בכבלי אפל לשמרם למשפט׃

(HNV) For if God didn't spare angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

(HOT)

(HOT+)

(IAV NC) For if Elohim spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


(ISV) For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but threw them into the lowest hell and committed them to chains of deepest darkness to be kept for judgment;

(JOSMTH) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

(JPS)

(KJV2000) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

(KJVCNT) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

(KJV+TVM) For1063 if1487 God2316 spared5339 [5662] not3756 the angels32 that sinned264 [5660], but235 cast them down to hell5020 [5660], and delivered3860 [5656] them into chains4577 of darkness2217, to be reserved5083 [5772] unto1519 judgment2920;

(KJV) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

(KJV+) ForG1063 ifG1487 GodG2316 sparedG5339 notG3756 the angelsG32 that sinned,G264 butG235 cast them down to hell,G5020 and deliveredG3860 them into chainsG4577 of darkness,G2217 to be reservedG5083 untoG1519 judgment;G2920

(KJV-1611) For if God spared not the Angels that sinned, but cast them downe to hell, and deliuered them into chaines of darkenesse, to be reserued vnto iudgment:

(KJVA) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

(KJVR) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

(LITV) For if God did not spare sinning angels, but delivered them to chains of darkness, thrust down into Tartarus, having been kept to judgment;

(LONT) For God, indeed, did not spare the angels who sinned, but with chains of darkness confining them in Tartarus, delivered them over to be kept for judgment;

(LXX)

(Metaglottisis) Γιατί αν ο Θεός δε λυπήθηκε αγγέλους που αμάρτησαν, αλλά με αλυσίδες ζόφου τους έριξε στον τάρταρο και τους παράδωσε να φυλάγονται για κρίση·

(MKJV) For if God did not spare sinning angels, but thrust them down into Tartarus, and delivered them into chains of darkness, being reserved to judgment.

(Moffatt NT) For if God did not spare angels who had sinned, but committing them to pits of the nether gloom in Tartarus, reserved them under punishment for doom:

(MRC) For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into Tartaros and delivered them to pits of deep gloom, watched over for judgment,

(MSG) God didn't let the rebel angels off the hook, but jailed them in hell till Judgment Day.

(Murdock) For, if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to the infernal regions in chains of darkness, and delivered them up to be kept unto the judgment of torture,

(NAB) For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but condemned them to the chains of Tartarus and handed them over to be kept for judgment;

(NAS77) For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;

(NASB) For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;

(NASB+) For if1487 God2316 did not spare5339 angels32a when they sinned264, but cast5020 them into hell5020 and committed3860 them to pits4618a of darkness2217, reserved5083 for judgment2920;

(NET) For if God did not spare the angels who sinned,15 but threw them into hell16 and locked them up17 in chains18 in utter darkness,19 to be kept until the judgment,

(New World Translation) Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tar'ta·rus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment;

(NIV) For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[1] putting them into gloomy dungeons[2] to be held for judgment;

(NJB) When angels sinned, God did not spare them: he sent them down into the underworld and consigned them to the dark abyss to be held there until the Judgement.

(NKJV) For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

(NLT) For God did not spare even the angels when they sinned; he threw them into hell, in gloomy caves and darkness until the judgment day.

(NRSV) For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of deepest darkness to be kept until the judgment;

(OJB) For if Hashem did not spare malachim that sinned, but cast them into Gehinnom, consigning them to the sharsherot (chains) of choshech to be kept for Mishpat;

(Pe#ta) ܐܢ ܓܝܪ ܐܠܗܐ ܥܠ ܡܠܐܟܐ ܕܚܛܘ ܠܐ ܚܤ ܐܠܐ ܒܫܫܠܬܐ ܕܥܡܛܢܐ ܥܓܢ ܐܢܘܢ ܒܬܚܬܝܬܐ ܘܐܫܠܡ ܐܢܘܢ ܕܢܬܢܛܪܘܢ ܠܕܝܢܐ ܕܫܘܢܩܐ ܀

(Pe#ta-T) )N GYR )LH) (L ML)K) DX+W L) XS )L) B$$LT) D(M+N) (GN )NWN BTXTYT) W)$LM )NWN DNTN+RWN LDYN) D$WNQ)

(Rev. Webster+) For1063 if1487 God2316 spared5339 [5662] not3756 the angels32 that sinned264 [5660], but235 cast them down to hell5020 [5660], and delivered3860 [5656] them into chains4577 of darkness2217, to be reserved5083 [5772] to1519 judgment2920;

(RYLT-NT) For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast them down to Tartarus, did deliver them to judgment, having been reserved,

(Rotherham) For—if, God, spared not, messengers, when they sinned, but, to pits of gloom, consigning them, in the lowest hades, delivered them up to be kept, unto judgment,—

(RSV) For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept until the judgment;

(RSVA) For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept until the judgment;

(RV) For if God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

(NS-T) eSJe mpepnoute gar T so nneaggelos nterour nobe alla aFnoJou epesht epnoun Hn Henkake natarhJnou aFtaau eHareH eroou etekrisis eukolaze mmoou

(Translit) ei gar ho theos aggelon amartesanton ouk efeisato, alla seirais zofou tartarosas paredoken eis krisin teroumenous,

(Translit+) . ei1487 theos2316 pheidomai5339 . . aggelos32 . hamartano264 . tartaroo5020 . . . tartaroo5020 . paradidomi3860 . . seira4577 . zophos2217 . . tereo5083 . krisis2920

(TRC) For if God spared not the angels that sinned but cast them down into hell, and put(delivered) them in chains of darkness (to be punished) there to be kept unto judgement

and delivered them over to be kept unto judgment)

(The Scriptures '98) For if Elohim did not spare the messengers who sinned, but sent them to Tartaros, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be kept for judgment,

(The Scriptures '98+) For if Elohim did not spare the messengers who sinned, but sent them to Tartaros, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be kept for judgment,

(TS98) For if Elohim did not spare the messengers who sinned, but sent them to Tartaros, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be kept for judgment,

(TCNT) Remember, God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them down to Tartarus, and committed them to caverns of darkness, to be kept under guard for judgment.

(Tyndale) For yf god spared not the angels that synned but cast them doune into hell and delyuered them in chaynes of darknes to be kept vnto iudgement.

(UPDV) For if God did not spare angels who sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and delivered them to chains of darkness, to be reserved to judgment;

(Vulgate) si enim Deus angelis peccantibus non pepercit sed rudentibus inferni detractos in tartarum tradidit in iudicium cruciatos reservari

(WEB) For if God didn't spare angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

(Webster) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved to judgment;

(WLC)

(WmsNT) For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but hurled them down to Tartarus and committed them to dark dungeons to await their doom,

(WNT) For God did not spare angels when they had sinned, but hurling them down to Tartarus consigned them to caves of darkness, keeping them in readiness for judgement.

(WORNT) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgement; and if He spared not the old world,

(WTNT) ¶ For if God spared not the angels that sinned but cast them down into hell, and put them in chains of darkness, there to be kept unto judgement:

(Wuest's)

(WycliffeNT) For if God sparide not aungels synnynge, but bitook hem to be turmentid, and to be drawun doun with boondis of helle in to helle, to be kept in to dom;

(YLT) For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast them down to Tartarus, did deliver them to judgment, having been reserved,



So there you have it, look at the different versions. Some are Catholic some are not. You have to understand about the translation and why it was later translated hell in some.


This is no Sheol, nor Gehenna, nor Hades and deliberately so

And just so we are clear, note the Vulgate, nothing Coptic about that one.

reply to post by edsinger


Yep, chains of darkness , over and over and over ...

I just imagine that it's pretty friggin' DARK DARK DARK DARK DARK DARK DARK DARK DARK DARK DARK DARK DARK DARK ............................................................... there in the GRAVE GRAVE GRAVE GRAVE GRAVE GRAVE GRAVE GRAVE GRAVE GRAVE ............................................................................................!!!

You are ate up dude. Here you are , still making my arguement for me and you are too FUGGED up to even realize it .

"So let's get to the point and let's roll another joint and let's head on down the road ...." GEEEEEEEEZ .

reply to post by edsinger


Looks like you are right. Have never seen this word other than in a few book belonging to the Nag Hamadi find. This is quite interesting. Thanks for the find. Anyway, it's not Tartarus which is written but rather Tartaroo, a verb, but the etymology is the same. Besides, why translate it when it refers to a certain place and in this case Greek mythology even? And that after he has just spoken of how such myths are false and godless. Go figure.

Second Peter also has a few other curious words, among them is one in particular found in the Latin Vulgate translation:

2pe 1:19 et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem cui bene facitis adtendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies inlucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris.

As compared to NIV of the same verse:
And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

In the second chapter he also seems to refer to the Book of Enoch when he mentions God's pre Flood judgement of the angels, and even Hermetecism (Alchemy, from Ar. Al Khemet, lit. From Egypt), based on ancient Egyptian wisdom attributed to the god Thoth (Gr. Hermes)speaking of how the elements shall burn.

It's a strange epistle indeed, but I have never noticed that it also mention Tartarus or to be "Tartarooed", to be lit. "cast into Tartarus" in essence, being "doomed". Tartarus, like I said above, has it's origin in Greek mythology, which he just a couple of lines before (1:16 Muthos) describes as cunning and even false teachings when read in context.

On the other hand I see no reason why one should translate it in to Hell. The text could very well have been written without being translated into a completely different word of a completely different concept.

2 Peter is indeed a strange letter with many peculiar words and phraces. Thanks for bringing this up. I never knew.

[edit on 7/4/2010 by Neo Christian Mystic]

Thanatos: Used in scripture 120 times and translated as death 104 times. This was in almost all cases in the New Testament, clearly showing that the use of the word thanatos as death was more than likely not talking about specific Greek god named after death because he personified death. It was simply a Greek word meaning death. Often times pagan gods are named according to what they rule over or personify. In fact, they are often simply objects, actions or ideas that are given human characteristics by use of the linguistic feature of anthropomorphism.

Tartarus: Only used once and found in 2 Peter 2:4. Describing the place where disobedient angels went. Commonly accepted as being below Hades where the punishment is even more severe. There is dispute if this is Hell itself as the Lake of fire was prepared for the disobedient angels in the first place, or if it is just a holding place of punishment. I would say the text is pretty clear that they have not received their final judgment and so it is a holding place while they wait to be judged and thrown into the Lake of Fire, which I am maintaining is the same as Hell.

Gehenna: Used in scripture 12 times and is always translated as “Hell.” Known as the literal place on earth called the "Valley of Hinnom,” this was a place that child sacrifices were made to the pagan god Molech as well as a place where the bodies of criminals were disposed of. It was a continuously burning trash heap. I believe that this place is used to describe the Lake of Fire, just as we often use physical things we are familiar with to describe things we do not have a full understanding of. The picture painted of Gehenna would very much connect with the idea of an eternal lake of fire. The scriptures in some parts may very well be warning against certain actions in order to avoid being thrown in the physical trash heap, but Matthew 10:28 seams to suggest a spiritual punishment after death. I recognize it could refer to a fear of being buried improperly, but I do not think so. The literal place also does not seem to fit appropriately in James 3:6.

If the Lake of Fire and Hell are in fact different, then nobody needs to worry about being thrown into Hell any more, they just need to be worried about being thrown into a Lake of Fire, since that is the second death. At this point, it is only a matter of semantics, as either way the scripture is clear that the wicked will suffer by fire, whether it be in Hell or the Lake of Fire.

Hades: Used in scripture 10 times in total. It is translated in the NIV as follows: 10 times it is left as Hades, depths 2 times, grave 2 times, and Hell 1 time. The one translation of it as Hell in the NIV is found in the account of the rich man and Lazarus in the book of Luke. This is a mistranslation and should have been left as Hades for the best understanding of the scripture. The Luke account of Hades paints the most accurate portrait of what the afterlife looked like before the death and resurrection of the Messiah. The place one goes upon death today is disputed between the current Heaven and the side of Hades called Paradise.

Sheol: Used in scripture 66 times and translated as grave 55 times, death 6 times, depths or depths of the grave 4 times, and realm of death 1 time. Definition has is as grave/realm of death. While the exact beliefs of the Jews are argued to have changed over the centuries depending on what pagan country they were being held captive in, the scriptures show a different story. As early as the book of Job, and definitely in David's Psalms, there was an expectation of a resurrection after descending to the grave (Sheol). The destination of all men, righteous and wicked, was Sheol. There is dispute today if the righteous still go to Sheol (Hades) after death or if they go to Heaven since Jesus had descended into the depths (aka Sheol) and set the captives free and then rose from the grave. Some believe the righteous now ascend to Heaven after death, others hold that they wait on the side of Hades considered to be "Paradise" or "Abraham's Boom." I still maintain that Hades and Sheol are the same. Almost every resource I have read has them being the exact same thing, with the only change being the language and the time in which it was used.

Limne pur (greek): These are the words translated as Lake of fire, and only appear 4 times in the entirety of the scriptures. Their appearance is also limited to the 19th and 20th chapters of Revelation. Regardless of whether or not Hell is the same s this Lake of Fire (and I maintain that it is), this Lake of fire is the final place of the damned after judgment according to scripture. If it would make everyone feel better, I could start telling them that those who reject the Christ will go to into the Lake of Fire instead of using the word “Hell”, but I think the reaction would probably be the same if not worse. Most people today have made up their own personal ideas of what Hell is like. To many, Hell is simply a state of being that is uncomfortable and unpleasant. Personally, I’m reminded of one of the “Bill and Ted” movies, though I forget which one it was. Many more people don’t believe there is any “bad” place as an afterlife, and that there is only some good thing kinda like Heaven, though even most Christians have a children’s storybook idea about what Heaven is really like, but that’s an entirely different thread.

I am unsure what I think regarding an eternal punishment in the Lake of Fire verses complete annihilation of the soul by that fire. Scripture seems to be able to suggest both.

Hopefully this little compilation is a little helpful to some of you. In summary, I believe that Sheol and Hades are the same thing, only named differently because of the change in language. I also believe that Hell and the Lake of Fire are the same thing. All this said, I also recognize that God does not require perfect doctrine and understanding of His plans in order to attain salvation. I do not use this as an excuse to justify ignorance, but as an acknowledgement that we cannot fully understand an infinite God or things that we have not experienced fully in our human bodies.
I don’t care to argue the point any more, though I may post again if it is fitting. To debate further is only going to degrade the parties involved. I am metaphorically “shaking the dust off my sandals.”

God Bless.

Mykahel


[edit on 7-4-2010 by Mykahel]

reply to post by Mykahel


I agree with you completely. We have the same and I'd be glad to argue, also the correct understanding of this, both scriptually and the intended meaning of ex. She'ol and Hades being the same concept though they have different etymologies and cultural semantics, my sincere belief is that Gehenna is best translated Hell or simply Fire or even Lake of Fire. Though I WOULD reserve my right to argue against poorly translated texts such as KJV which seems to generalise too much, explaining "Land of the Dead" (She'ol and Hades) as Hell, in effect the same as Gehenna which can only be "Eternal Annihilation of the Soul" or "Lake of Fire", the place God destroys the wicked in the Endtime Judgement. Which brings me to another important detail worth keeping in mind. The word translated torment in relation to the Lake of Fire in the end of the Apocalypse, Basanizo, actually means to "Test (Examine) for Purity", so the Bible should really read "Tested (or Tried) in Eternity". Back in the days gold smiths and gold traders etc. used a black type of siliceous rock called a touchstone to Test (Basanizo) gold and other presceous metals for purity. This action is what is described in relation to the Lake of Fire. So the correct way of translating Basanizo should be Test/Tested or Tried etc. Appart from the already mentioned verse, it is used 11 other times in the NT, and nearly all of them that is translated Torment and similar words could easily be translated to the more correct Test/Examine.

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


I forgot to mention in my other post that all the statistics I got concerning what words were translated and how many times came from The Stongest NIV Exhaustive Concordance.

I long ago gave up on the KJV translation of things, but also understand the NIV to be imperfect, with the Luke translation of Hades to Hell being one fine example. The New American Standard is good, but I worry that in the translation that American ideas and ideals could have possibly influenced the choice of words to reflect things that Americans hold dear, like capitalism and so on so forth.

I must admit I was partially unaware of the things you were talking about regarding the testing verses the torment, but it does give some credit to the idea of a type of purgatory, not that I would endorse the catholic understanding of it one bit. Scripture does speak of us being refined so that what is bad may be burned away and the good enter into the kingdom. Can't recall the scripture off hand. We must be careful not to preach that all get to Heaven though, as the scriptures obviously speak of some being destroyed/punished in the fire (Separation of the sheep and goats) as well as John 3:16-18. There are those who will be condemned.

reply to post by Mykahel


Indeed, tested in order for us to being able to become better people and perhaps be allowed into the New Jerusalem. I once made a model of the New Jerusalem, and placed it on a scale model of the Earth, and seeing how enormous it really is in those measures, made me shiver and think to myself: Is God really planning on changing the spin of the Earth by lowering down a construction so humongous that in compariseon a big die compared to an orange? My visions of this after I had made those CAD drawings included robots building this "City" in orbit using the Moon's matter to make it, which would explain how it would not be built by the hands of Man, and that we would no longer need the light of the Sun and the Moon when it surfaces, since the Moon will be mostly gone and the Sun would constantly be on the other side, since the construction itself would make the Earth's spin cease with the New Jerusalem turning the Earth into a "sledge" appearing from the Sun as the Moon appears for us from the Earth, always showing the same side towards us (which in turn has made me speculate whether there actually is something really giant on the far side of the moon to, or that it is not round as NASA et al claim). And here is the really scary part which will further fulfill many of the endtime prophecies: For the wicked (ie. left out from the New Jerusalem) the Sun will shine for seven days in one day. The far side of the City will be in constant torment from the Sun, and things like winds and tides will cease and for a while the Earth will wobble or rave like a drunkard. On the other side where the City is, there will be extremely cold, making it very hard to gain access to it. And on top of it spaceships can land and take off in zero gravity. By then we have come quite far in fixing an atmosphere on Mars which I believe will be the "New Earth under the New Heaven as discribed, where God will recreate life, and have that as a playground. The Earth's circumference is approximately 40,000 km, and compared to the sides of the New Jerusalem are 2,220 km, meaning it's sides are about 5.55% of the Earth's circumference or just about 20 degrees (check out my avatar, the size of the upper square of the red cross is 20 degrees or 1/18 of the Seal of God there). Now that's a big thing, allthough the number looks small, but make a scale model and see exactly how huge that thing is. It's amazing.

[edit on 7/4/2010 by Neo Christian Mystic]

Originally posted by Mykahel
I must admit I was partially unaware of the things you were talking about regarding the testing verses the torment, but it does give some credit to the idea of a type of purgatory,

Not at all, for only Satan and perhaps also the beasts will be Tested eternally in relation to the Lake of Fire. Humans cast into it will simply be destroyed. Only in Revelation 20:10 is it mentioned that there is some kind of eternal "torture" or like I said "testing", or perhaps even "challenge" going on, and Satan is the subject of that sentance, but also the beasts are (present tence indicating that they live still thousand years after they were cast into it) also there indicating that they are still alive. My guess is that Satan is given the job to somehow make it so that Hell doesn't grow or something, or maybe he is supposed to figure out how God can use that place for other things than killing people. Maybe he is to set up a hellskiing contest which will be so popular it will go on forever "until hell freezes over" and it's time to bring out the skates.... It may be, we don't know, but it is a possibility given the words in question may allow such fantacies. I honestly can't understand how God would sacrifice his own firstborn son and the brightest mind in Heaven, just because he did his job in testing people on the Earth to see if they were good people, and his job in the court of God where he works as procecutor. It's all in the mindset. Where is your hate, where is your love, see? He may be our enemy in the court of God in the judgement, but he is merely doing his job, nothing else, and as far as I know he does his work mandated by God fairly well. Jesjuah says Love your enemies. Then why does all Christians hate Satan? God's own procecutor and police chief....

[edit on 7/4/2010 by Neo Christian Mystic]

Originally posted by okbmd
Yep, chains of darkness , over and over and over ....

Not exactly, Tartarus is a direct quote from the Vulgate and since your doobinated,


lets move on to another now that I have more time,


(NIV) Rev 20:3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.


(NASB)Rev 20:3 and threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he should not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.


Now this description describes a grave? Well not really but just to humor you,

Rev 9:11 They have as king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek he has the name Apollyon.


Now this brings up many things and I tend to think of this Abaddon as being an Archangel but am not sure yet. Either way there is no King over the grave and this 'angel' is not bound in death because well angels do NOT die.


There you have it boys and girls....watch the bloviation to come.

Now for some more information about this topic,

Cast them down to hell (tartarōsas). First aorist active participle of tartaroō, late word (from tartaros, old word in Homer, Pindar, lxx Job 40:15; 41:23, Philo, inscriptions, the dark and doleful abode of the wicked dead like the Gehenna of the Jews), found here alone save in a scholion on Homer. Tartaros occurs in Enoch 20:2 as the place of punishment of the fallen angels, while Gehenna is for apostate Jews.

Rudentibus inferni detractos in tartarum tradidit cruciandos, in judicium reservari, Greek: seirais zophou (some few copies, Greek: adou ) Greek: tartarosas, paredoken eis krisin teteremenous; other manuscripts, Greek: teroumenous. Greek: Tartaroo must signify cast into a place, called Greek: tartaros, derived from Greek: taratto, turbo. The Rhem. Testament hath, with ropes of hell drawn down; but the sense rather seems to be, delivered into chains, or into prison. Some would have Greek: tartarosas to signify, cast down into this region of the air. It is true divers of the ancient Fathers were of opinion, that devils are dispersed in the airy region, where they are punished and tormented; but these same Fathers do not deny, that there is in the inferior parts of the earth a place of torments for the devils and damned souls, into which (called also the abyss) the devils begged not to be sent and confined there. (Luke viii. 31.) This is the place called hell, tartarus, &c.

hell--Greek, "Tartarus": nowhere else in New Testament or the Septuagint: equivalent to the usual Greek, "Gehenna." Not inconsistent with 1Pe_5:8; for though their final doom is hell, yet for a time they are permitted to roam beyond it in "the darkness of this world." Slaves of Tartarus (called "the abyss," or "deep," Luk_8:31; "the bottomless pit," Rev_9:11) may also come upon earth. Step by step they are given to Tartarus, until at last they shall be wholly bound to it.

16tn Grk “casting them into Tartarus” or “holding them captive in Tartarus.” This verb, ταρταρόω (tartarow), occurs only here in the NT, but its meaning is clearly established in both Hellenistic and Jewish literature. “Tartarus [was] thought of by the Greeks as a subterranean place lower than Hades where divine punishment was meted out, and so regarded in Israelite apocalyptic as well” (BDAG 991 s.v.). Grammatically, it has been translated as an indicative because it is an attendant circumstance participle.

Cast them down to hell (tartarōsas). First aorist active participle of tartaroō, late word (from tartaros, old word in Homer, Pindar, lxx Job 40:15; 41:23, Philo, inscriptions, the dark and doleful abode of the wicked dead like the Gehenna of the Jews), found here alone save in a scholion on Homer. Tartaros occurs in Enoch 20:2 as the place of punishment of the fallen angels, while Gehenna is for apostate Jews.

"Hell" here is Tartarus. This is the prison of the fallen angels until the Great White Throne Judgment, from where they will be sent to eternal misery in the Lake of Fire (Rev. 20:14), the final abode of the wicked dead, also called "hell." The Greek word is geenna, from which we get the name "Gehenna" (Matt. 5:22, 29, .30). The word hāidēs, translated "hell" (Matt. 16:18), means "the unseen" and refers to the unseen world of free moral intelligences, holy angels, fallen angels, departed saints, the unsaved who died, Satan, and the demons. The context speaks of the latter two in the unseen world who would destroy the Church if they could. For a full discussion of the three words, geenna, tartarōsas, and hāidēs, see the author's book, Treasures in the Greek New Testament, chapter 6, "Hell, Hades, and Tartarus." Here, Peter is speaking of that place in the unseen world where the fallen angels are imprisoned until the Great White Throne Judgment. The word tartarōsas is the Greek pagan name for the place of punishment of the evil. Strachan says: "In Homer, Hades is the place of confinement for dead men, and Tartarus is the name given to a murky abyss beneath Hades in which the sins of fallen immortals are punished. Hence 2 Peter uses this word in agreement with the Book of Enoch (where Tartarus is the place of punishment of fallen angels) and Greek mythology because he is speaking of fallen angels and not of men."

Peter says that God condemned the sinning angels to the lowest depths of hell. Literally the Greek says that God condemned the angels to Tartarus (tartaroun, ). Tartarus was not a Hebrew conception but Greek. In Greek mythology Tartarus was the lowest hell; it was as far beneath Hades as the heaven is high above the earth. In particular it was the place into which there had been cast the Titans who had rebelled against Zeus, the Father of gods and men.
The second word is that which speaks of the pits of darkness. Here there is a doubt. There are two Greek words, both rather uncommon, which are confused in this passage. One is siros or seiros which originally meant a great earthenware jar for the storing of grain. Then it came to mean the great underground pits in which grain was stored and which served as granaries. Siros has come into English via Provencal in the form of silo, which still describes the towers in which grain is stored. Still later the word went on to mean a pit in which a wolf or other wild animal was trapped. If we think that this is the word which Peter uses, and according to the best manuscripts it is, it will mean that the wicked angels were cast into great subterranean pits and kept there in darkness and in punishment. This well suits the idea of a Tartarus beneath the lowest depths of Hades.
But there is a very similar word seira (), which means a chain. This is the word which the King James Version translates when it speaks of chains of darkness (2Pet 2:4). The Greek manuscripts of Second Peter vary between seiroi (), pits, and seirai (), chains. But the better manuscripts have seiroi (), and pits o darkness makes better sense than chains of darkness; so we may take seiros () as right, and assume that here the King James Version is in error.

But cast them down to hell - Greek ταρταρώσας tartarōsas - “thrusting them down to Tartarus.” The word here used occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, though it is common in the Classical writers. It is a verb formed from Τάρταρος Tartaros, Tartarus, which in Greek mythology was the lower part, or abyss of Hades, ᾍδης Hadēs, where the shades of the wicked were supposed to be imprisoned and tormented, and corresponded to the Jewish word Γεέννα Geenna - “Gehenna.” It was regarded, commonly, as beneath the earth; as entered through the grave; as dark, dismal, gloomy; and as a place of punishment. Compare the Job_10:21-22 notes, and Mat_5:22 note. The word here is one that properly refers to a place of punishment, since the whole argument relates to that, and since it cannot be pretended that the “angels that sinned” were removed to a place of happiness on account of their transgression. It must also refer to punishment in some other world than this, for there is no evidence that This world is made a place of punishment for fallen angels.

but cast them down to hell; they were hurled out of heaven, from whence they fell as lightning, into the "lowest", or inferior places, as the Syriac version renders it; either into the air, as in Eph_2:2 or into the earth; as in Rev_12:9 or into the deep, the abyss, the bottomless pit, where they are detained, as in a prison, Luk_8:31 though for certain reasons, and at certain times, are suffered to come forth, and rove about in this earth, and in the air: and these, when removed from their ancient seats in heaven, were not merely bid to go away, as the wicked will at the day of judgment; or were "drove" out, as Adam was from the garden of Eden; but "cast down"; with great power, indignation, wrath, and contempt, never to be raised and restored again:

Here are just a few about Tartarus and some of the ideas about why Peter used it. I connect it with the bottomless pit, gnashing of teeth, abyss, and to some extent Hades. As can be shown, and not by our resident Christian bashers, the reasonings and opinions vary. In my opinion, if one is to study the concept of 'Hell' it can get confusing for sure, but granted it is a much greater meaning than Sheol.

This is why I wish someone of Jewish knowledge can elaborate better on the concept of Sheol in Judaism.


And for the quest of the thread, it has been debunked fairly easily and not just by myself, but others. The OP is lost in doobieland, heart is hardened and logic gone.

reply to post by edsinger


As far as I know the Abussos word simply discribe a deep hole in the ground. Abussos derives from the negative article A and Buthos, Bathus or Bathos (all three related to the word Basis, which has the same meaning in Greek as in English) which means the "bottom of the sea" or even the sea itself. In mythology the Abussos of Orcus was the abode of the demons located at the lowest place on Earth. Kind of a prison. This may be understood in relation to the Kabalistic story of the "Spark of Heaven", the book of divine knowledge God ordered Raziel to write and give to Adam when he ate from the Tree of knowledge, but which Satan stole and cast down at the lowest part of Earth at the bottom of the sea. Only Leviathan could go that deep, so God ordered Leviathan to dive down and fetch the book and give it back to Adam who was then dead, so it was given to Enoch, great grandfather of Noah.