Christianity is a Conspiracy; ALL of you are going to HELL

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


Well said Neo .

Good day to you sir.

reply to post by okbmd


Indeed, wishing you well and may you have a great day today and remember what happened nearly 2000 years ago!

As for the topic, I'd like to add a few important things. If She'ol and Gehenna is the same thing as KJV says, then we'll all end up in the Lake of Fire, just like the OP so elequently and truthfully express, never to see the light of day ever again.

In my people's old religion Helheim (Hell) was one of several possible places of unseen riches you could end up upon death. We had Valhall where the brave warriors ended when they were killed in battle defending the people, Gimli was the abode of the gods, on the other side of Rimfrost, Heimdall's rainbow bridge, on the oposite side from Valhall. And we had Helheim where the others left who were either unworthy or didn't fit in at the other places and finally, the place in Helheim where Hel destroyed the souls of cowards and murderers: Helvete. It is the latter, Helvete, which is correctly translated into Hell in English, given the traditional semantic and etymological meaning of the word/name Hell, and it is more or less synonymous to the Lake of Fire as discribed in the Apocalypse.

Also the idea that "good Christians" go to heaven is at best spurious, it is extra biblical and has nothing to do with sense. I'd simply quote one of my favorite artists, REM, and say, "If you believe, they'd put a man on the Moon. Man on the Moon. And if you believe there's nothing out there to see, then nothing is real." Above the blue haze of the sky, when you enter Heaven, it's a dark and cold inhospitable place, with no air or gravity and a negative pressure which will turn your insides out, destroy your Y-chromosomes and with lethal cosmic deathrays and nuclear radiation. What would anyone be there for. But of course believing in such truths is complicating the message and pragmatic disturbance in the world of eternal bliss og ignorance. Sick. Damned Sick!

[edit on 4/4/2010 by Neo Christian Mystic]

reply to post by SkurkNilsen


Wow - Silo 13's post was certainly not indicative of pride. It was indicative of a childlike faith. I get so pissed off reading all these non-intellectual posts trying to debunk the message of Christ and the atoning sacrifice.

Did you know that modern yogic masters can take on the karmic penalties of their disciples as a wilful act of self-sacrifice in order to help them progress in the Way..?

What Jesus did was a pre-meditated act of SELF-SACRIFICE. He wasn't killed without control over the situation - he allowed himself to be killed in order to take the 'Sins of the World' under his belt and provide a means by which the uneducated or unspiritual / non-ascetics or 'spiritually sick' might be literally saved from the karmic consequence of their sin.

That this was a 'once for all' act is (imho) not up for debate. However, it IS possible to lose the purchased salvation - we are cautioned to 'work out our salvation'.

Pride is taking a position whereby one presumes oneself to be better than others. That cannot be evidenced in Silo13's post.

To try and lump all Christians into one basket is utterly ridiculous. Christ is happy with the idea of 'Church' as a means by which people can be together in a spirit of love to reflect and meditate upon the salvation principle and also upon means by which we can improve the condition of our lives and the lives of those around us. Just because many Christians fail to see the real meaning of Christ's teachings, life and sacrificial act doesn't mean that they all do. Let's stop bashing vague groups of people and start unpicking the spiritual truth in the teachings of Christ. Meditate daily and focus on improving one's own behaviour.

Cheers all.

NB - New Christian Mystic you seem to be well-wide of the mark in understanding things, so please don't try to force your errant understanding on others.

okbmd - you also seem to have turned this thread into a 'lets bash the christians' sort of thing. New thread-readers; I'd caution against taking such a naiive approach. Read up on the life of St Francis for an example of a 'true' Christian.

How is the lake of fire translated?
You know where the smoke of torment rises for ever and ever.
If Christ didn't die for our sins there would be no Christianity,
no Chritians, no hope. He conqured death that we may live.
Because the wages of sin is death. It's really that simple.

[edit on 4-4-2010 by randyvs]

reply to post by NoahTheSumerian


OK. Let's be pragmatic here, since you won't listen to what is called linguistic- and religious sciences, history and what the Bible really says, beyond what the Church must have led you to believe. The truth may set you free, but it's mostly like when John the Revelator is told to eat the little book given to him by the Angel descending from the sky: It's bittersweet. Your understanding sounds and tastes like honey, but when it reaches your childrens' and other adherers' stomacs it is bitter like wormwood. But as I said, let's be pragmatic here. Tell me exactly WHAT is wrong and WHERE I am mistaken. Comeon. Try me.

[edit on 4/4/2010 by Neo Christian Mystic]

Originally posted by randyvs


How is the lake of fire translated?
You know where the smoke of torment rises for ever and ever.

The Lake of fire is a direct translation and needs no further translation, other than if you speak another language of course. Gehenna neither needs translation, other than if you don't understand that it is the place southwes of Jerusalem where criminals were cremated and garbage was desposed. Hell isn't even in the text and therefore is one of the hundreds of mistranslations presented by King James back in his evil Bible "translation". He (KJ) seems to have been obsessed with different mythologies, like the Norse, Greek and the Roman ones, and instead of presenting the text as is, he interpreted obvious concepts found in the Judaic religion, and doomed all his followers to hell, even the Great and Pure Morningstar (which is Jesjuah ha Mesjiach) he judged to "Hell". The man must either have been incredible evil or simply stupid and imbesile.

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

The Lake of fire is a direct translation and needs no further translation, other than if you speak another language of course. Gehenna neither needs translation, other than if you don't understand that it is the place southwes of Jerusalem where criminals were cremated and garbage was desposed. Hell isn't even in the text and therefore is one of the hundreds of mistranslations presented by King James back in his evil Bible "translation". He (KJ) seems to have been obsessed with different mythologies, like the Norse, Greek and the Roman ones, and instead of presenting the text as is, he interpreted obvious concepts found in the Judaic religion, and doomed all his followers to hell, even the Great and Pure Morningstar (which is Jesjuah ha Mesjiach) he judged to "Hell". The man must either have been incredible evil or simply stupid and imbesile.

I don't think you are mistaken in any of this at all.
I don't see any of this diminishing the message God is sending though.
It all still means seperation from God right?
I'm sure it will be pretty tough finding you in error.
Translation is one thing. Peoples understanding of what is translated is
another horse to consider.

[edit on 4-4-2010 by randyvs]

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

 

It all still means seperation from God right?

No, that would be the personal interpretation presented by Pope John Pail II presented in the eighties when they abolished hell, or rather, made it a friendlier place. Why do you need to interpret everything. The Apocalypse says that when you are unforgiven, you are cast into a Lake of Fire burning with sulphur, ie. a lava lake which God will rise from the deep in the Judgement after the ressurection i.e. even after we're dead and have went to She'ol or the Unseen (there actually isn't a word in English for She'ol, which is probably the reason it has been translated into Hell in the first place) or as it is directly and neutrally translated into Norwegian Dødsriket, lit. "Land of the Dead". When we die, we don't go to Heaven, we don't go to Hell, neither are we cast in the Lake of Fire, nor are we placed on thrones before the Lord. We enter the Land of the Dead, or simply Death, where noone calls for God or feel, see, hear speak or understand anytghing, just a dark idle stance in one's lives. After that our souls will be reattatched to new bodies when God comes to judge in what we know as Judgement Day. Depending on what we have done, believed, thought and worked out etc. God will judge us using the same Law he has always used. Common Sense and Obvious Truth. We will then either be allowed to live and receive eternal life (if he really likes us), simply be allowed to live on like now, only outside the walls of the New Jerusalem where the Lake of Fire is located to the South West, and where life is tough and we will have to breed like we do now and leave our legacy to our children who might have another chance depending on how good they are (if he doesn't really like us but still is willing to give us another chance), or we will be killed in the Lake of Fire and never in a million years be allowed back to Life.

PS: I mistook you for NoahTheSumerian there for a while. Please forgive me this, you actually seem to be a honest man or woman with good intentions, not trying to change what is writyten, but has a genuine desire to ureally understand things in a sensible way. Sorry.

[edit on 4/4/2010 by Neo Christian Mystic]

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

 

I'm sure it will be pretty tough finding you in error.
Translation is one thing. Peoples understanding of what is translated is
another horse to consider.

First things first: My errors are quite a few, even quite many. If you'd do a search for my earlier posts up through the years, you'd find enough to grant me eternal hellfire. But unlike many others I have a genuine desire to really understand, beyond what traditional theology and justice presents. I want the undeniable truth or atleast what can be called common sense. Not some compromise priests and scribes have come to during the last few millennia.

As for your second sentient here. Indeed. Everything in life, even such simple things as understanding what is right and wrong, what is good and what is evil, will have subjective understandigs to them, just about everyone living here (and also everyone who are now dead). That's why we have concepts such as common law and justice. Things we have agreed upon.

However. God's Law doesn't need such human concepts to be understood. When I talk about God's Law, I am not really refering to the Torah, for even that is subjective, a collection of laws Mosjeh presented before God and which they agreed upon, resting on thousands of years of traditional religious and juridical practice. Stuff that had proven to be sensible and functional for the communities from where it grew out. It seemed to reflect common sense.

Still noone until this day (Jesjuah included) whom we know about has been able to live (normal lives) in perfect and complete accordance to the Torah. We are all sinners according to the letter of that Law. That's why they had concepts such as Rosh Hasjannah and animal and crops sacrifice. Rituals made in agreement with God to wash ourselves of sin, be forgiven, thus giving us a way or opportunity to start anew and a possibility to make up for our sins. The point of the Torah isn't that we should live completely after it, after all we are all human, but we are supposed to always keep it in mind and TRY. And when we sin, or break the law (since the concept of sin isn't really relevant to the Torah), we must sacrifice, give up something, pay for our crimes.

Today we use reactions such as fines and isolation, and some states even use more harsh treatments like capital punishment and amputations, physical torture like public whipping and what not. Things I all find useless and perverted. Had we instead been given the possibility to make up for our crimes, in agreement between victims and he who had committed the autrocities. Not with pain and isolation, but through work, and giving for no price from what we are really good at, measured and weighed according to the misconduct or crime committed and ability to repay one way or the other. If we could rather serve our king if we had delivered a bogus tax report. If we could work for free to help the family we had committed a crime against. If we could do thngs in return, instead of just being placed in a cell to rot and thus become vengeful and bitter, without ever feeling we or justice had accomplished anything. Then I believe God would've perhaps cried a tear or two of joy, thinking "that is the good way, the way of my servants. The way I always taught. The way I always wanted them to live by."

Edited for typos

[edit on 4/4/2010 by Neo Christian Mystic]

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic



Can't get the quote function to work -

"PS: I mistook you for NoahTheSumerian there for a while. Please forgive me this, you actually seem to be a honest man or woman with good intentions, not trying to change what is writyten, but has a genuine desire to ureally understand things in a sensible way. Sorry."


Okay NCM - you don't know me, you don't know my life experience or my beliefs. I don't go to church, and I don't blindly follow what others tell me. You seem very reactionary, and to be honest I can't be bothered wasting my time with you. I am interested in the truth, and I am an honest man. I do have good intentions, and I do weigh up the evidence (objective and subjective) very carefully before making a statement. Your posts are so fraught with error it would take an eternity to refute every point, which is why I dealt with generalities in my original reply. Anyone with an ounce of discernment will be able to see that much of your opinion spouts from the bitterness of negative personal experience.

Let's leave it there for now. At some point I'll start a thread explaining in full my beliefs, theories etc. Until then I'll just caution you not to jump to conclusions about someone's motivations or beliefs.

And don't lump people of variable ideologies into one basket.

Your ignorance astounds me.

i would like to start by saying that i am not a religeous person but i think that we all deff go to some sort off diff dimension once we pass. and i do believe there is some sort of supreme bean! i have watched a few videos on youtube about near death experinces. and there is no way all these diff people could have the same kind of experinces when none of them have ever even met ill post a few of the videos on here and just see what u think ? LoG0Gh1WB0s

reply to post by NoahTheSumerian


Like I said. As we are discussing the concept of hell here, which is subjective to a certain Testament included at the end of our Christian Bibles, and which I have delivered my sentients about here in this thread, -- Can you please tell me where I am wrong instead of using divide and conquer as you have a tendency to do, calling people things and generalise. I have delivered pragmatic sentients here, based on what words mean from a cultural, religious and scientific standpoint. What is it you say is wrong in my understanding of what Hell is? It is a Norse word, you do know that? What is Gehenna, it is a Greek name in replacement of Ben-Hinnom, you know that? What is the Lake of Fire, it is a direct translation from Greek, you know that? What is Heaven appart from being a place we are just about to explore, where the gods came to Earth from, you must know that? You call me reactionary. Though it is normally a harsh word, often used to critisise people for being dull and or TOO correct, in a sense. Well, I am concervative when it comes to linguuistics and religious and other ways -- law and justice. I am not God. I am not here to judge or set free. But at least, I am not here to give people false hopes, like the Church and the likes have been doing beyond their Godgiven mandate. Unless when I put on my poet's or etymologist's hat, I call a spade a spade. The etymology for spade is actually the same as spear, simply because it can be used as one and also it is created using the same techniques and tools etc. When discussing the very foundations of a text, the least one can do is to refer to the original text, not some 17th century translation made by a biased British king on a spurious mission, but the best sources we have seen in the light of modern archaeological and otherwise research. In this case a set of Greek documents from the first couple of centuries AD, together with a vast library of ancient Hebrew documents, and in this case also ancient Scandinavian texts and all these languages. That's my point. And that's what you obviously fighjt against here like some Don Quijote wanting to destroy windmills or some oportunistic alchemist trying to turn bricks into gold bars. Instead of refering to what is not even discernable from your replies, and then when confronted with this come up with silly excuses such as "the quote function doesn't work" and come up with even more vagueness saying that's why I was generalising. Get a new browser if your old one doesn't work, and point out what I am wrong at. Fight like a man when you confront one, not run off with your tail between your legs and when far enough away, turn and give the finger. Tell me where I'm wrong, and I'll look into it and see if there really are some things to it.

reply to post by skillz1


Allthough this might be a derailment of the ongoing discussion, I just have to reply with: Just as there are similarities in people's explanations of experiences with any drug, NDE (Near Death Experiences) have many comon elements, due to what happens inside a brain when reaching the other side. The most powerful halucinogen, '___', which all humans have in their bodies from birth, is released in great doses (just like what happens uppon birth and during extreme religious experiences, for instance, and it can be likened to an extreme, but natural variant of '___' or Mescaline. You get the exat same experience when you take '___' as what people discribe after having experienced a NDE. Period. However, this doesn't explain why people actually experience what they do in NDE or on a '___' trip in the jungles of South America. It just explains what happens chemically. It's like '___' is some kind of gateway to the unseen on a spiritual level.

There are bunches of threads on the subject here at ATS, just do a search for NDE.

[edit on 4/4/2010 by Neo Christian Mystic]

reply to post by okbmd


jeez, if you can show me that hell exists...you might be credible..as it stands now though, you are in a virtual world of religion

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic

Originally posted by helen670
Hi/
The New Testament is the New Covenant....Death is no more!

You have to be joking! As far as I know every damned person who lived after your 616 Jesus has died.

Hi,
No, I am not joking!
What exactly do you mean 616???

Not a single person has survived life. Your constant ignorance based on Cathoic dogma and ludacris blasphemian doctrines are lies made to excuse the Roman empire for "killing" Jesjuah ha Mesjiach who despite their plans received help so he survived the crucifixion. People like you should be ashamed. God promised us death when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, and Adam died at the age of 930 years, or within sundown in God's world, where one day equals a thousand years. You believe more in magic and lies than truth and sense, and inherited sin, that we chose the path of knowledge, in effect demanding to figure out ourselves how to survive life and get eternal life. You can't seriously mean that your great great grandfather is still alive. You live in denial, twisting the testimony of Jesjuah ha Mesjiach into blatant lies. But give our scientists another millennium and we will have figured out the cure for life, when we plant the Tree of Life which will yield fruit every month and give us healing and eternal life from the well washing out from below it.

[edit on 3/4/2010 by Neo Christian Mystic]

I have no understanding of what you said in this quote!
The BIBLEis not for OWN interpretation!
Why do you choose to ignore many Theologians study of the Bible and take it upon yourself to interpret the Scriptures?
Death came as a result of man's disobediance.

''God promised us death when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, and Adam died at the age of 930 years, or within sundown in God's world, where one day equals a thousand years.''

Man was created to live eternally and not know DEATH of the body!
Man was created with both body and Soul.
The occurance of Death happened AFTER the disobediance of Adam and Eve...man brought DEATH upon themsleves.
Death therefore, entered into all of mankind!

In Paradise of old,
the tree stripped me bare,
for by the eating thereof,
the enemy brought in death.
But now the most holy tree of the Cross that doth clothe all men with the garment of life hath been set up on earth,
and all of the world is filled with most boundless joy.
Seeing it exalted,
ye people,
now, let us the faithful all cry out with one accord to God in faith: Thy house is full of glory, O Lord.
Sung at the '' Feast of the Elevation of the Holy Cross'' - Sessional Hymn of the Canon ...

Xristos Anesti!

ICXC NIKA
helen

reply to post by jimmyx


I have absolutely no idea what your intentions were in your post. Show you that hell exists ? Please elaborate and I will reply.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/463ec4062b52.jpg[/atsimg]

Please refrain from flogging or stoning me until after you read what I have to say.

"Damn!"

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ddff84c87964.jpg[/atsimg]

reply to post by wayaboveitall


You sir, are a funny guy ! I laughed out loud with that one !

Happy Ishtar.