Originally posted by Kingdom of darkness

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic

Originally posted by edsinger

Mat 25:41 Τότε ἐρεῖ καὶ τοῖς ἐξ εὐωνύμων, Πορεύεσθε ἀπ' ἐμοῦ [οἱ] κατηραμένοι εἰς τὸ πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον τὸ ἡτοιμασμένον τῷ διαβόλῳ καὶ τοῖς ἀγγέλοις αὐτοῦ:

Mat 25:41 "Then he will say41 to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!

Notice the Eternal here.....oh but that is not for man.....ok

The fire is eternal, as we all know, just like the fire of the Sun is "Eternal" and the glowing magma under your feet is "eternal". No mention of eternal torture here either. Just eternal fire.

[edit on 18/4/2010 by Neo Christian Mystic]

You seriously don't know the meaning of eternity. Go see a shrink maybe you can ask him what the meaning of eternity is.

Stop asking people who have no idea...I don't know what eternity is either. Glowing magma under our feet? are you serious...You have problems buddy.

Where do you pull up these facts from? It's all in your head right. Wow how nice and for you to sit here and BS all of us...Have fun in your imagination

First off, I am not talking to you. As for the meaning of eternity: 1/0 is infinity. Try it on your calculator, you'll get a syntax error, because it is an impossible measure. As for you, who admit that you don't know what infinity (math) or eternity (time) is, try 1/0.0000000000001 which is almost zero, and extend that as far as you'd like. The closer to zero you come, the greater the answer is. So no, we can only imagine what an eternity is, or what infinity would mean, it is an impossible entity or number. In the same manner you can divide a second of time into an infinitely amount of lesser entities, for instance a nanosecond is a billionth of a second, and you can divide that into another billion billions if you'd like. Still you arn't even close to what can be called eternity. You could divide a second into an infinitely many subdivisions, still it would be only one second out of a near infinitely amount of seconds.

Secondly, I am refering to a Greek text which has been translated into English. We can retract every Koine Greek word and explain in English what their possible meanings are. That is what I am doing here. The Bible isn't an English text, it is part Hebrew, part Greek. And many places in our translations there are serious "mistakes" or interpretations resting on Church doctrine and their ways of making money etc.

Thirdly. I don't like being called things when I point out things easilly sourced out and explained using the science of linguistics and the languages and sources as understood today, together with historical and cultural traditions etc. of the Antiquity and later into when the NT texts were written. If you want to argue, argue using sound knowledge and sources please. Quoting LaVey might be interesting in a thread concerning modern Satanism, but here we are talking about New Testament Greek sources and their translations. May God have mercy on your soul!

[edit on 18/4/2010 by Neo Christian Mystic]

How can we all be going to Hell if Christianity is a conspiracy?

Originally posted by Spirit777
How can we all be going to Hell if Christianity is a conspiracy?

Haha. Good one. I never thought of that. That there is actually the first counter attack to the essence of this thread which actually holds water. Great, and much better than people who are interpreting an interpretation of a series of Dark Age doctrines and thoughtframes, without even concidering the language and semantics of the sources, claiming this and that is the correct interpretation since some king of England ordered it so and so, or that the pope or certain theologists representing their churches' views are correct beyond any doubts. This is the first critical approach actually carrying wit and intelligence here!

Originally posted by HydromanI, for one, do not wish to cease to exist. Now, how can eternal punishment be just? Let's think about this please. Think about eternity, and being tortured for the duration of eternity. Please think about that.

Well I don't wish to not exist either. I am comforted by the fact that I have been told, that I will live in Heaven with my savior. Eternity of torture.....pretty severe I would say, imagine that Christ paid for your sins and mine so that we would not have to. Is it just? That is not for us to decide.

Originally posted by HydromanIs that not overkill? Is that the only solution? To punish someone whom you truly love and gave your life for? To torture them forever? Is that good? Is that just? Someone who's only crime is not believing in this god and accepting his free gift? Burn them forever? I do not want to live for a god who would do that. Why would you? Oh, I know...so you WON'T BURN FOREVER perhaps. This is madness my friend.

We can not understand why and how. That is up to God. He doesn't tolerate sin and the Bible is specific about this. If one does not accept that His Word is true, then there is nothing that I can do. Is it fair? In my mind I hope for something else but not for the ones that have heard the good news and rejected it, but those who have no real chance. I struggled with this for a long time. "How could God be this way" I asked?

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.
John 14:7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."

This verse is a very tough one for those who do not accept Christ. Then I realized, that God chooses us, but that is another thread...

Originally posted by HydromanHow can this god expect beings so imperfect as ourselves (which he understands) to believe in him without ever showing us himself? Without ever speaking with us audibly? Without ever letting us touch him? This is how we relate to reality, via observation. How can this god, who created us to relate in that way, torture us forever when we've used our senses the best we can to determine that this being isn't real? Especially for an eternity. I'd love to be able to believe in a god who loved me so much that he'd share himself with me and have a relationship with me. A god who would never harm me, no matter what I have done to him because his love runs so deep for me. That is not this god.

Sin can not be in His presence, we sin and that is a problem, hence the need for a Savior. We also have pride, we think WE are in charge. I have no answer as I have been asking myself that for many of years. It comes down to His Word, what does it say? Does one believe it or not?

What about suicide? Is that the end? Some think it is, I do not. There must be consequences for ones choices. That is the whole point of Grace, for we ALL fall short and need a Savior.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic OK, I think you misunderstood. I didn't ask you to cut and paste texts and then say what is written is correct leaving no doubt. That is where you simply haven't understood anything.

Oh I understood, you see I posted the Greek but really can not read it. I use software and such to comprehend and try to interpret it, but alas, I always find that there are folks that are much better at it than I. Hence using multiple translations and getting a understanding.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic The Greek text leaves great room for interpretation. And you still haven't come up with a sound analysis of what exactly the Greek texts say or might say. I refer to what I have said earlier and hope you come to your senses. Anyone can cut and paste, but few can actually analyse these texts and say what is said, what can be said, what might be the intention and like i said a simple word like the preposition Eis in Greek, has many meanings in English. In KJV alone it has 16 different meanings.

If the Greek text is so unclear, why do most Modern version render it practically the same? This is important, if a version was to reinterpret the concept of eternal punishment, then things would be turned over very quickly but it has not happened. The oldest of teh texts actually confirmed most of the Dogma and Orthodoxy of the last 2000 years.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic Now why do you think they are translated exactly like they have been in for instance KJV? Because the KJV builds upon hundreds of years of church and royal dogma. What is it Peter says in the KJV? He says: "Gird up the loins of your mind".

Ah the KJV, I love it but use it rarely. I mainly use the NIV and NASB, and believe it or not the NJB. The KJV was built on the best texts of the time, there are better ones since but the translators did a very remarkable job on it still. Its English is timeless.



***** I will have to get to the other posts later, out of time ***





[edit on 18-4-2010 by edsinger]

Originally posted by Kingdom of darknessIt's also funny how religious people "THINK" it's okay to eat meat.

Sure do, love a good steak. I take it your Vegan....to each his own I guess.

Originally posted by Kingdom of darknessEverytime you kill an animal you are simply killing a human right?

Where did you get that?

Originally posted by edsinger
Well I don't wish to not exist either. I am comforted by the fact that I have been told, that I will live in Heaven with my savior. Eternity of torture.....pretty severe I would say, imagine that Christ paid for your sins and mine so that we would not have to. Is it just? That is not for us to decide.

Apparently it is not for us to decide. But, it doesn't mean he is just. Just because he says so himself does not make it so.

Originally posted by edsinger
We can not understand why and how. That is up to God. He doesn't tolerate sin and the Bible is specific about this. If one does not accept that His Word is true, then there is nothing that I can do. Is it fair? In my mind I hope for something else but not for the ones that have heard the good news and rejected it, but those who have no real chance. I struggled with this for a long time. "How could God be this way" I asked?

You yourself recognize how wrong it is for god to punish someone for all eternity. You yourself question it. You should! This is good. What's not good is being afraid to question it and just giving in. Is that how you'd respond to a Mob Boss or a dictator who's "might makes him right"?

Originally posted by edsinger
This verse is a very tough one for those who do not accept Christ. Then I realized, that God chooses us, but that is another thread...

Yes, yes it is.

Originally posted by edsinger
Sin can not be in His presence, we sin and that is a problem, hence the need for a Savior.

Apparently god isn't omnipresent then. If so, he would have to be in the presence of sin.

Originally posted by edsinger
We also have pride, we think WE are in charge. I have no answer as I have been asking myself that for many of years. It comes down to His Word, what does it say? Does one believe it or not?

And if we don't, we are burned forever! What the hell man? We are expected to believe this "word" which was written down by imperfect man, and edited, changed, added to, taken from, etc. over the millenia. But by god we better believe it without any evidence of the existence of this deity who loves us so much that if we don't believe in him we will be eternal toast.

Originally posted by edsinger
What about suicide? Is that the end? Some think it is, I do not. There must be consequences for ones choices. That is the whole point of Grace, for we ALL fall short and need a Savior.

Why must there be consequences? Because there's no other way to do things? What if this life is only a test, or a chance to experience something and after we leave it we remember why we came here? And all the good and bad experiences of this world is only for our learning for some bigger picture that we are unaware of in this flesh?

Or what if we just die and that's it? Why be so fixated on consequences? This would mean that both those who were good and those who were bad would just be dead and that's it. They lived their life and now they're gone, just like any other animal on this planet.

Not only Greek mythology, but a wide variety of other religions, traditions and mythologies. To many "Christians" this means great trouble and they scream Babylon! Babylon! While forgetting that it is they who are babbeling along in what they call angelic tongues while at their favorite Pentecostal church every Sunday morning, which has yet to be proven possible to being interpreted by any linguists or for that matter, cryptographers or other "dragons" "devils" and "serpents" accusing them rightly of herecy and thus sinning against their own standards. I my self learned English in about an instance at the age of ten or something while whatching the Children's Channel, and I have learned to speak several different English dialects, including what my mom thought was Irish when I was a kid, but which turned out to be some kind of Skottish accent, allthough I've only been to the Isles twise in my life, and today my accent is a fair mix of different British tongues, with certain American words and phrases mixed in. That's what tongues are all about. Messing around in babble is nothing, it only breeds madness and fear in people who feel they are forced to babble along. But everytime I bring this up people go telling me I don't have the Spirit since I can't understand the Babble. It's gibberish, there are no patterns other than repetition found in those "tongues". Same goes with healing. Most "healers" will go to hell for not having lead sick people to true healers. I have seen cancer patients being "healed" in meetings only to die the week after since they suddenly stopped taking their medication. I have seen schitzofrene people drop their medicine since they have been miraculaously healed only to drop out and go hang themselves shortly after, since it didn't really work, but they were afraid to tell. And when I explain how Jesjuah was healed by a spear to his chest and saved from Gehenna by a rich man who also lent the healers of the Essene community his tomb, so they could comtinue the treatment of our Lord, they call me a demon possessed satan, shut their ears and go "lab badabb ages r a ment r sik dget depo sdjvpuio" and start screaming and crying, shaking their heads and move in repetitive motions I have only seen in hospitals for the mentally ill.

Hell is a place indeed, out of this world indeed, but it doesnot even belong to the Christian mythology, it belongs to the Norse. A friend of mine in Harstad, was shown the entrance to one of the gates of Helheim, exactly the same way Greeks are shown the entrances to Hades, and Hebrews have been shown the entrances to She'ol. They are deep channels and caves which go deep down into the ground, and if you go down there alive you will surely die. But part of the mystery goes, that if one is cast into those places, the gods will once fetch those bones of yours and rise you up and let you have a try to defend yourself against whatever their books have written on your soul.

And just as the Norse Heimdall myths is the story of Noah, the Gilgamesh, the Atrahasis and the Ziusudra epics are also the same story, and looking at how the Enuma Elisj is nearly identical to Genesis 1 only far more detailed, you'll soon get the picture and you can even find very similar stories in the New World, thousands of miles overseas. And there is much to learn from the ancients and "Christians" should learn to appreciate that in order to fulfill the Word of our Lord and aquire the knowledge of our forefathers complimenting it with the new stories and current science, instead of claiming world power and further ignore common sense and empirical methods etc. since THEY have the ONLY correct and ORIGINAL stories, ignoring the fact that these stories we have are way older than most peoples, tribes and languages, belonging to our common heritage which more than anything should lead us together, not further appart. Finding these similarities, is like finding a gem or a pearl, they are talent rewards for searching for the light wherever it shines, and we should put the light where people can see it, not inside jars under tables. To claim "Jesus is the light" without even understanding the obvious poetic lingual links there, is like being blind dragons ridden by Satan himself, straight into the lake Satan himself will have great joy swimming around in when the time comes. Love your enemies, and especially the worst ones. Calling Satan unintelligent and noncreative, evil and the father of sins, will only make your lives miserable and the end will be a test you'd need an eternity to pass. Phiew. I need to do some yoga now I guess.....

Originally posted by okbmdBecause , as I have tried to point out , 'HELL' is not a concept that is exclusive to christianity ., but rather , is found to be an expression of a concept that was simply 'adopted' from other sources .

Hell in the sense I understand it IS Christian in nature, an eternal place of punishment is not, granted.

Originally posted by okbmdHell , is the grave , therefore we cannot say that the grave is an exclusive concept of christianity , now can we ?

No, people have died and were buried for a very long time.

Originally posted by okbmdWe are all going to die , christian or non , we are all going to the grave , christian or non , we are all , therefore , going to hell .

Well all will die, we all go to the grave, we all DO NOT go to Hell.

Originally posted by okbmdThe whole point of this thread was intended to show that 'hell' does in no way equate with eternal suffering in a lake of fire . The proof is simply not in the pudding .

Well I think I have proven it, the lake of fire/Abyss/Tartarus/Ghenna aka HELL are one in the same in the big picture.

Originally posted by okbmdThe whole concept of burning in hell forever and ever is nothing more than a scare tactic devised by the church .

I whole heartedly disagree, the Church did not write Scripture.

Originally posted by okbmdWhy ? I'll tell you why ... $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ .
Follow the money .

Yeah, well this little thing called the Reformation dealt with just that…

Originally posted by okbmdTo quote you , "Some one from the dead? Why did not the Greek use Hell/Hades here? "

Well a point was trying to be made, the dead usually (physically reside in the grave) but point taken

Originally posted by okbmdNowhere , does it translate as grave or hell . You are a smart man , did you somehow overlook this before choosing it as part of your argument ?

See above, if you can lump a meaning into a word off a few references, then why can not I?

Originally posted by okbmdWe have already been over the fact that death and hell are not the same thing (REV. 1:18 ).

AGREED, but the Grave and Hell are not the same either.

Originally posted by okbmdHere again , hell is translated from hades . GREEK MYTHOLOGY.

And your point is? See below

Originally posted by okbmdTake out only the greek mythology contained within christianity , and a very LARGE part of the bible would fail to exist .

I beg to differ, the Old Testament was before Greek Mythology, Sumer came first. I do believe that the ‘stories and tales’ are related (Nephilim/Titans for example)

Originally posted by okbmdBut yes , I've been told that I'm 'going to hell' because I don't speak in tongues , I've been married more than once , I defile my temple with smokes and cold beer , etc., etc., etc.

Well then someone is not being truthful, I drink beer and smoke(want to quit) and eat bacon for that matter and I do not speak tongues unless I have had too many beers . Jesus hated divorce (Only thing I can remember He hated), but it is not forbidden. It seems that some Christians get a bit over zealous on things and they chase folks away because of it.

Tell you what, I had 2 beers tonight, at Church, during a meeting. I feel NO guilt over it because it is not a sin to drink. Christ drank wine and if He sinned, my faith is in vain.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
I was actually once cast out of a church since the band that I played in at the time had been invited to play there, which we did. And the reason: We were simply too good at playing so the elders had figured out that we must have had sold our souls to Satan in order to acheive what we had done. When we countered them saying we had actually worked hard to learn how to play like we did, even that was concidered Satanic. Anyone who could sit for twelve hous straight rehersing to finetune their technical skills HAD to be Satanists. Our songs didn't even have vocals, and because of this they had figured we hated the Word, and that too was seen as Satanic.

You were wronged. I have had my fellow Christians tell me I sin when I drink a beer. Apparently, they can not read.

Yes, we're all going to Hell and I will see you there.

Originally posted by edsinger

You were wronged. I have had my fellow Christians tell me I sin when I drink a beer. Apparently, they can not read.

Just tell them where David bought his beer Certain people means it's a sin to dance and to play and listen to music, and some even thinks knowledge is sin (except for biblical knowledge), and that it is a sin to use medication, get blood transfers and to show one's face or hair. The problem with sin, is that the more one would define as sin, the more miserable his life will become, he will constantly be reminded of these "sins" and thus the sin gets power over him. This is actually one of the only concepts Shaul Paulus brought up which I can fully agree on from a rational or logical point of view.