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Originally posted by Hydroman
Originally posted by edsinger
You did it for me. see Italics above
I could be wrong, but I DON'T think the OP argues the point that people will be thrown in the lake of fire. I think what he is saying is that they won't burn forever like Satan will. It's my understanding that what he's saying is that the sinners will be thrown in and burned up instantly. This punishment will be everlasting because they will be gone forever, to never return.
Originally posted by okbmdYou're still dancing in circles and skirting the issue by not addressing the verses I have quoted to you above .
Originally posted by okbmdInteresting that you have tried to disect and pick apart everything I had said up to this point , but now you fail to address my latest presentation . Hmmm ....
Originally posted by okbmdIf you can't refute any of it , just say so and be done with it .
Originally posted by okbmdShow me where it says that people are going to be tormented throughout eternity in a lake of fire , and I will bow out gracefully and declare you the better man in this debate .
Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Mat 25:40 "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Mat 25:42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
Mat 25:44 "Then they themselves also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
Mat 25:45 "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Mat 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Luke 16:22 "Now it came about that the poor man died and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
Luke 16:23 "And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw^ Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue; for I am in agony in this flame.'
Luke 16:25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
Luke 16:26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, in order that those who wish to come over from here to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'
Luke 16:27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, Father, that you send him to my father's house--
Luke 16:28 for I have five brothers-- that he may warn them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
Luke 16:29 "But Abraham said^, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
Luke 16:30 "But he said, 'No, Father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'
Luke 16:31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.'"
.
Rev 14:9 And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Mat 10:27 "What I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light; and what you hear whispered in your ear, proclaim upon the housetops.
Mat 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Luke 12:4 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
Luke 12:5 "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who after He has killed has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
Mat 18:8 "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire.
Mat 18:9 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into the fiery hell.
Mark 9:43 "And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
Mark 9:44
Mark 9:45 "And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than having your two feet, to be cast into hell,
Mark 9:46
Mark 9:47 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
Mark 9:48 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.
Isa 66:23 "And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD.
Isa 66:24 "Then they shall go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched; And they shall be an abhorrence to all mankind."
Dan 12:1 "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
Dan 12:2 "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
Mat 16:18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it.
Originally posted by okbmdOnly one stipulation however , you must also prove that HELL is the lake of fire . Otherwise I stand by my OP ... we are all going to hell .
Mat 13:40 "Therefore just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Mat 13:41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
Mat 13:42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic It's my understanding that what he's saying is that the sinners will be thrown in and burned up instantly. This punishment will be everlasting because they will be gone forever, to never return.
Originally posted by edsinger
Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic It's my understanding that what he's saying is that the sinners will be thrown in and burned up instantly. This punishment will be everlasting because they will be gone forever, to never return.
Yeah I followed that, the second death. If the second death is just non-existence then penalty for actions etc would be moot. However, the total absence of God for eternity would be Hell. I do not believe that the soul can be snuffed per se, it will exist but the location of its existence is the key.
Originally posted by Neo Christian MysticGet your quoting straight. The quote you included here was by Hydroman. Besides you are completely wrong in your assumptions, it seems you really have an urge to see some souls burning in agony for all the rest of eternity.
Originally posted by edsinger
Well I don't want to see anyone suffer for eternity. The second death is not just a non existence. It is eternity of suffering, I believe the Bible is clear on that one.
Originally posted by edsinger
Well I don't want to see anyone suffer for eternity. The second death is not just a non existence. It is eternity of suffering, I believe the Bible is clear on that one.
[edit on 17-4-2010 by edsinger]
Originally posted by HydromanSo you think death is not a punishment? Then there shouldn't be any death penalties. Only life in prison, since death is not a punishment.
isn't a punishment.
Originally posted by Neo Christian MysticWe've been at it for quite a while. Can you please say where the Greek text beyond any doubt, or even reasonable doubt, says that anyone will be tormented for ever in the Lake of Fire? A single place?
Mat 25:41 Τότε ἐρεῖ καὶ τοῖς ἐξ εὐωνύμων, Πορεύεσθε ἀπ' ἐμοῦ [οἱ] κατηραμένοι εἰς τὸ πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον τὸ ἡτοιμασμένον τῷ διαβόλῳ καὶ τοῖς ἀγγέλοις αὐτοῦ:
Mat 25:41 "Then he will say41 to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!
Καὶ ἐὰν σκανδαλίζῃ σε ἡ χείρ σου, ἀπόκοψον αὐτήν: καλόν ἐστίν σε κυλλὸν εἰσελθεῖν εἰς τὴν ζωὴν ἢ τὰς δύο χεῖρας ἔχοντα ἀπελθεῖν εἰς τὴν γέενναν, εἰς τὸ πῦρ τὸ ἄσβεστον.
Mar 9:43 "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
Mar 9:44 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.
Mat 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
REV 14:9 Καὶ ἄλλος ἄγγελος τρίτος ἠκολούθησεν αὐτοῖς λέγων ἐν φωνῇ μεγάλῃ, Εἴ τις προσκυνεῖ τὸ θηρίον καὶ τὴν εἰκόνα αὐτοῦ, καὶ λαμβάνει χάραγμα ἐπὶ τοῦ μετώπου αὐτοῦ ἢ ἐπὶ τὴν χεῖρα αὐτοῦ,
REV 14:10 καὶ αὐτὸς πίεται ἐκ τοῦ οἴνου τοῦ θυμοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ κεκερασμένου ἀκράτου ἐν τῷ ποτηρίῳ τῆς ὀργῆς αὐτοῦ, καὶ βασανισθήσεται ἐν πυρὶ καὶ θείῳ ἐνώπιον ἀγγέλων ἁγίων καὶ ἐνώπιον τοῦ ἀρνίου.
REV 14:11 καὶ ὁ καπνὸς τοῦ βασανισμοῦ αὐτῶν εἰς αἰῶνας αἰώνων ἀναβαίνει, καὶ οὐκ ἔχουσιν ἀνάπαυσιν ἡμέρας καὶ νυκτός, οἱ προσκυνοῦντες τὸ θηρίον καὶ τὴν εἰκόνα αὐτοῦ, καὶ εἴ τις λαμβάνει τὸ χάραγμα τοῦ ὀνόματος αὐτοῦ.
Rev 14:9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Originally posted by edsinger
No Death is not THE ULTIMATE punishment. By your logic one could go through life being selfish, living for oneself, murdering, etc etc and have no consequences?
Originally posted by HydromanYour life taken from you or life in prison would be the consequence if you are caught. I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
Originally posted by HydromanAnd in the second death, eternal death would be the consequence. Would you want to not exist anymore? Wouldn't that be bad?
Originally posted by edsinger
That is just it, if there was no life after death, you wouldn't care either way. That is why where one chooses to spend that life after death really matters. If one doesn't believe in that, then it is moot as they will not know either way, so there would be no repercussions for ones actions during life in the first place.
You mean all the greek "Myths"
Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
reply to post by edsinger
OK, I think you misunderstood. I didn't ask you to cut and paste texts and then say what is written is correct leaving no doubt. That is where you simply haven't understood anything. The Greek text leaves great room for interpretation. And you still haven't come up with a sound analysis of what exactly the Greek texts say or might say. I refer to what I have said earlier and hope you come to your senses. Anyone can cut and paste, but few can actually analyse these texts and say what is said, what can be said, what might be the intention and like i said a simple word like the preposition Eis in Greek, has many meanings in English. In KJV alone it has 16 different meanings. Now why do you think they are translated exactly like they have been in for instance KJV? Because the KJV builds upon hundreds of years of church and royal dogma. What is it Peter says in the KJV? He says: "Gird up the loins of your mind".
Originally posted by edsinger
Rev 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
...that is one place in Greek that says its eternal.
Originally posted by edsinger
Καὶ ἐὰν σκανδαλίζῃ σε ἡ χείρ σου, ἀπόκοψον αὐτήν: καλόν ἐστίν σε κυλλὸν εἰσελθεῖν εἰς τὴν ζωὴν ἢ τὰς δύο χεῖρας ἔχοντα ἀπελθεῖν εἰς τὴν γέενναν, εἰς τὸ πῦρ τὸ ἄσβεστον.
Mar 9:43 "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
Mar 9:44 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.
Originally posted by Kingdom of darkness
Biggest country in the united states? or biggest by "population"
Originally posted by edsinger
Mat 25:41 Τότε ἐρεῖ καὶ τοῖς ἐξ εὐωνύμων, Πορεύεσθε ἀπ' ἐμοῦ [οἱ] κατηραμένοι εἰς τὸ πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον τὸ ἡτοιμασμένον τῷ διαβόλῳ καὶ τοῖς ἀγγέλοις αὐτοῦ:
Mat 25:41 "Then he will say41 to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!
Notice the Eternal here.....oh but that is not for man.....ok
You seriously don't know the meaning of eternity. Go see a shrink maybe you can ask him what the meaning of eternity is.
Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
Originally posted by edsinger
Mat 25:41 Τότε ἐρεῖ καὶ τοῖς ἐξ εὐωνύμων, Πορεύεσθε ἀπ' ἐμοῦ [οἱ] κατηραμένοι εἰς τὸ πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον τὸ ἡτοιμασμένον τῷ διαβόλῳ καὶ τοῖς ἀγγέλοις αὐτοῦ:
Mat 25:41 "Then he will say41 to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!
Notice the Eternal here.....oh but that is not for man.....ok
The fire is eternal, as we all know, just like the fire of the Sun is "Eternal" and the glowing magma under your feet is "eternal". No mention of eternal torture here either. Just eternal fire.
[edit on 18/4/2010 by Neo Christian Mystic]