Originally posted by okbmdYou're still dancing in circles and skirting the issue by not addressing the verses I have quoted to you
Its a time thing, I will address as best I can when I can...plus I don't like to repeat things. Your OP that we all are going to hell is where I had
my beef. Sheol is one thing and I somewhat agreed with that, but the direct translation of Sheol to Hell is where I have issues, especially with the
KJV. The Christian concept of Hell is not just the grave, and that is my point. If eternity in hell is just non-existence, then there really is no
punishment for your choices and that concept is anti-Biblical.
Originally posted by okbmdInteresting that you have tried to disect and pick apart everything I had said up to this point , but now you
fail to address my latest presentation . Hmmm ....
What? I did address the OP and now you move on to another? Hmm.
Originally posted by okbmdIf you can't refute any of it , just say so and be done with it .
But I did, that is a fact. Now on to the next one...
Originally posted by okbmdShow me where it says that people are going to be tormented throughout eternity in a lake of fire , and I will
bow out gracefully and declare you the better man in this debate .
Ok, so this post that supported your position was in line with your idea,
Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and
they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
This does not say humans at all. Agreed, but that is not the subject of the verse. This is for the Devil and his minions so to speak. However,
Mat 25:40 "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even
the least of them, you did it to Me.'
Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the
devil and his angels;
Mat 25:42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
Mat 25:44 "Then they themselves also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in
prison, and did not take care of You?'
Mat 25:45 "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do
it to Me.'
Mat 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
It can be said here that this WAS directed at humans. I used the NASB as it is the most literal of the English translations. I will use it
Luke 16:22 "Now it came about that the poor man died and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and
Luke 16:23 "And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw^ Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool
off my tongue; for I am in agony in this flame.'
Luke 16:25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is
being comforted here, and you are in agony.
Watch this next verse very carefully.....
Luke 16:26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, in order that those who wish to come over from here to
you may not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'
Luke 16:27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, Father, that you send him to my father's house--
Luke 16:28 for I have five brothers-- that he may warn them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
Luke 16:29 "But Abraham said^, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
And now, pay attention as its importance is great..
Luke 16:30 "But he said, 'No, Father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'
Luke 16:31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the
Some one from the dead? Why did not the Greek use Hell/Hades here?
Rev 14:9 And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a
mark on his forehead or upon his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with
fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image,
and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Those who receive the mark are human. The torture/punishment is eternal.
Mat 10:27 "What I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light; and what you hear whispered in your ear, proclaim upon the housetops.
Mat 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body
If Hell were only the grave, how could those that are saved still have a soul if we all go to Hell?
Luke 12:4 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
Luke 12:5 "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who after He has killed has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear
Why would God cast those who believe into the grave here? It makes no sense, this Hell listed here can not be the grave.
Mat 18:8 "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or
lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire.
Mat 18:9 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than having
two eyes, to be cast into the fiery hell.
Here directly the eternal fire is directly related to a fiery Hell. Now the next one is eye-opening I would hope,
Mark 9:43 "And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go
into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
Mark 9:45 "And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than having your two feet, to be cast into
Mark 9:47 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes,
to be cast into hell,
Mark 9:48 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.
No 'death' fire eternal.....can you not see it? This is Hell, not the grave. This is not limited to the new Testament either, for :
Isa 66:23 "And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the
Isa 66:24 "Then they shall go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm shall not die, And their
fire shall not be quenched; And they shall be an abhorrence to all mankind."
Grave? I think not, although Sheol was not used here, but neither was grave.
Dan 12:1 "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of
distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book,
will be rescued.
Dan 12:2 "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting
Is everlasting contempt just non existence? I think not and have shown so. It is eternal and it is Hell/Hades/Tartarus/ lake of fire/Abyss/.many more
I guess. It is context.
Mat 16:18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower
What? Does grave work for you here?
Originally posted by okbmdOnly one stipulation however , you must also prove that HELL is the lake of fire . Otherwise I stand by my OP
... we are all going to hell .
Mat 13:40 "Therefore just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Mat 13:41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit
Mat 13:42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Hmm gnashing of teeth in the furnace of fire? Have we heard that before? Prove? I will not attempt to do so, your heart is hardened. I will however
give those following this thread a more precise meaning and back it up as I have done. I will however give you some information that you may or may
not know. Your beliefs on this exact manner (OP) are very similar to the Jehovah witness position.