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Are HC Opponents Informed or Misinformed?

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posted on Apr, 1 2010 @ 11:18 PM
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the power of unintended consequences... Don't underestimate it.




posted on Apr, 1 2010 @ 11:18 PM
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Double Post

[edit on 1-4-2010 by OutKast Searcher]



posted on Apr, 1 2010 @ 11:31 PM
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reply to post by ManBehindTheMask
 



LoL EXACTLY it directly affects, you, so instead they will mandate that EVERYONE must be on it, so we will pay for EVERYONES insurance...

I dont want to pay for insurance for someone else, and i shouldnt have to....i dont expect anyone to pay for MINE


You said you have insurance...so you are already paying for everyone elses healthcare...that is how insurance works. You get a pool of people...they all pay into it...the won't all be sick at the same time...so they use YOUR money when you aren't sick to pay for someone elses expenses. And when you get sick...someone else will pay for yours. This is just how it works.


and yes i do have health insurance


So you are complaining about being forced to buy something that you already are purchasing???



I fail to see how people dont understand the concept of how much this is going to drive up taxes and the national debt


Care to say exactly how this will drive up taxes and national debt??? Specifics please.



not to mention its unconstitutional


This is kind of the whole point of the thread. Don't just say it...prove it. It has been all said before...both sides have valid arguments...but we don't get to decide. We will have to leave it up to the SCOTUS.



posted on Apr, 1 2010 @ 11:46 PM
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My thoughts:

1. Insurance is by nature a socialist institution whether government is involved or not. So is the military. So are roads. So are a lot of things that make modern society function.
2. Opponents are not generally freaking out about what's in the bill. They are freaking out about hating Obama. Or hating anyone that wants a more egalitarian society.
3. The bill doesn't appear to be all that great, though there are some good points in it, most of them regulatory in nature for the insurance industry. (pre-existing conditions, etc..) As a progressive I find a lot of it repugnant. However, it's not going to usher in an apocalypse.
4. The provision regarding required purchasing of health insurance will probably be found unconstitutional. It appears unconstitutional to me, and seeing how there are 5 justices now "legislating from the bench" in favor of the republican party, you can call it a no brainer.
5. This will leave an absolute health care quagmire, the consequences of which are probably beyond anyone's ability to determine at this point.
6. There are lots of laws that greatly step outside the constitutional bounds. Most of them are dumped under the "interstate commerce" clause. They have been enacted by both parties over many generations.
7. I get a little tired of hearing republicans whine about defiance of the constitution while they have openly defied it with law after law for longer than any of us have been alive. (so has the democratic party, but I just can't stand hypocrites).



posted on Apr, 1 2010 @ 11:56 PM
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reply to post by OutKast Searcher
 





But not before a very bad time for the American people where more will die because of no insurance.


People do not die because they lack health insurance, there are many reasons for death, including disease, chronic illness, accidental, murder, and suicide, but of all the causes of death listed by the health care field, lack of insurance is not among them. Further, consider these disturbing facts noted by Barbara Starfield, MD, MPH, who published an article in The Journal of American Medical Association, where she pointed to the iatrogenic, (death by doctor), problem in U.S. health care.

The very real concern of iatrogenic death in U.S. health care is one of the best kept secrets of the medical field is that death by doctor is a leading cause of death in The United States of America, but while mainstream America is twisted with emotion and screaming; "Let's play the insurance game", consider these facts and figures:





* 7,000 deaths occur each year due to medication errors in hospitals

* 12,000 deaths occur each year due to unnecessary surgery

* 20,000 deaths occur each year due to other hospital errors

* 80,000 deaths occur each year due to nosocomial infections in hospitals

* 106,000 deaths occur each year due to adverse effects to properly prescribed medications

This equals 225,000 deaths due to what are known as iatrogenic causes. This would place them as the third leading cause of death - just above cerebrovascular diseases at 162,672 deaths.


www.allaboutmassagers.com...

Those figures quoted are from the year 2002. Just one year later, the total of deaths caused by doctors, or hospital staff went from a reported 225,000 on average each year, to an astonishing 783,936 iatrogenic deaths.




The number of unnecessary medical and surgical procedures performed annually is 7.5 million. (3) The number of people exposed to unnecessary hospitalization annually is 8.9 million. (4) The total number of iatrogenic [induced inadvertently by a physician or surgeon or by medical treatment or diagnostic procedures] deaths is 783,936.


These are horrifying numbers and serious charges being made by established medical professionals. Doctors, who have taken an oath to first do no harm.




The 2001 heart disease annual death rate is 699,697; the annual cancer death rate is 553,251. (5) It is evident that the American medical system is the leading cause of death and injury in the United States.


www.ourcivilisation.com...

Beyond the deaths caused by iatrogenic behavior, a great deal of the skyrocketing costs of health care can be explained by the figures cited in the above articles. If it is true that 7.5 million people are given surgery and other medical procedures that weren't necessary, and 8.9 million hospitalized for no good reason at all, and we subtracted that cost from the overall cost of health care and suddenly its a lot less. Here is a very real and serious problem in health care, an industry that no doubt needs reform, where the figures expose doctors, and hospital staff to be a big part of the problem regarding costs of health care, and yet all any body wants to do is play the insurance game, with all its variant subset of games, whether it be a fully private system, government regulated, or fully funded, it is still just the insurance game, and does nothing to address the very real problems that exist in health care today.



posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 12:14 AM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 



People do not die because they lack health insurance, there are many reasons for death, including disease, chronic illness, accidental, murder, and suicide, but of all the causes of death listed by the health care field, lack of insurance is not among them.


By that logic...no one dies from murder or suicide either...no medical diagnosis for either. Also, using your logic...no one dies from blod clots or clogged arteries...they die from pulmonary embolisms and heart attacks. Hell...people really don't even die from cancer...it's almost always by some other condition that the cancer caused.

So hey...let's stop treating blod clots, clogged arteries, and cancer...because no one dies from those things.


Not really sure how the rest of your post relates to the HC bill.



posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 12:22 AM
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Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 



People do not die because they lack health insurance, there are many reasons for death, including disease, chronic illness, accidental, murder, and suicide, but of all the causes of death listed by the health care field, lack of insurance is not among them.


By that logic...no one dies from murder or suicide either...no medical diagnosis for either. Also, using your logic...no one dies from blod clots or clogged arteries...they die from pulmonary embolisms and heart attacks. Hell...people really don't even die from cancer...it's almost always by some other condition that the cancer caused.

So hey...let's stop treating blod clots, clogged arteries, and cancer...because no one dies from those things.


Not really sure how the rest of your post relates to the HC bill.


You are quite mistaken. By the logic I have employed, murder and suicide are listed as causes of death and that shouldn't have to be explained here, but since you are intent on putting out false memes, let me be clear about this:

Murder and suicide are in fact listed as causes of death, but I defy you to show me where lack of health insurance was listed as a cause of death.

Further using the very same logic I employed, blood clots and clogged arteries are listed as causes of death. The logic I have employed stands, and what ever logic you think you're employing, is nothing more than nonsense. It may be your opinion, nonsensical as it is, but the logic I am relying upon is correct.



posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 12:45 AM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


Here is a wiki list of causes of death

Cause of Death

So I stand corrected on murder/suicide because there is an "intentional injuries"...but there is still no blood clots or clogged arteries on that list.

The cause of death...meaning why your body has stopped living...is not the same thing as WHY you died. There are many reasons WHY you died...but usually only one cause.



posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 01:01 AM
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reply to post by OutKast Searcher
 





There are many reasons WHY you died...but usually only one cause.


Then let us dispense with all the silliness, and stay within the realm of logic and reason. Allow me to assume, for the sake of argument, that you are stating that lack of health insurance would be one of the many reasons why a person died, but if this were indeed a reason, it is not the lack of health insurance that was the problem it was the inability to pay the needed medical procedures to be kept alive.

Insurance has become a speculative way of spreading the risk in hopes of minimizing the cost, but the outcome of that system has not accomplished its intended consequences, and the problems of health care costs exist for insured and uninsured alike, and mandating all people use this speculative form of risk control is not, and will not do a thing to address the underlying causes of a medical system in disrepair.



posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 01:26 AM
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Are HC Opponents Informed or Misinformed?

Some may be misinformed, but here is something nobody has been able to answer:

Why should I be concerned about someone else's health if they are not? I mean, if some obese individual that over eats and eats all the wrong foods, or doesn't exercise, or chain smokes, or drinks alcohol excessively, or sleeps around looking for an STD, or uses hard drugs, etc., doesn't care about their health, why should I?

Do you not think the individual should be held responsible for their poor health if they neglected themselves and refuse to take good care of their health? Do you want to keep paying the hospital bills of someone that refuses to reform their lifestyle choices and health to help reduce their medical care costs? How would you feel if you were forced into an auto insurance pool with a bunch of drunk drivers to help pay for their auto crashes because they needed you to do so because they couldn't afford to pay for their own choices in life?



This won't fly in america, the nation where 1/3rd of the population cares so little about their health that they are obese. Are the other 2/3rds REALLY responsible for having to take care of that 1/3rd that doesn't give a damn about their own health? Are their now no financial repercussions for not taking good care of yourself now? Why should I be held financially responsible for someone else's poor choices in life?

This just doesn't make any damn sense, and neither is it fair. Obama is a jackass and I'll have no part of this. I will not be forced to pay for someone else's poor lifestyle choices. Hell no. And I don't believe I am alone in this.

We could significantly reduce overall health care costs if everyone was FORCED to take damn good care of their health. What we need is mandatory HEALTH reform, not health care reform. Until THAT is added into all of this, I will not play along with this unconstitutional attempt to implement involuntary servitude for the benefit of those that simply do not give a damn about their health themselves!!!!


Someone explain to me why it's my responsibility to pay for someone else's irresponsibility. ??



posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 01:41 AM
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Honestly,

I'm still waiting for a valid answer on why I should be against this bill. Even though it has it's flaws (what? you want or expect a perfect holy bill? lol), it's probably going to be beneficial to many.

As for the taxes skyrocketing...doesn't it depend on how much you make? Even though that Theory is pretty scary for those who make a certain amount a year, it is just a theory and an opinion as there is no solid proof of such.

But thank you all for contributing.


Here is the run down:
People who pay for health insurance are angry that uninsured individuals are going to have to pay for their insurance.

What the F indeed.



posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 01:50 AM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 



Then let us dispense with all the silliness, and stay within the realm of logic and reason. Allow me to assume, for the sake of argument, that you are stating that lack of health insurance would be one of the many reasons why a person died, but if this were indeed a reason, it is not the lack of health insurance that was the problem it was the inability to pay the needed medical procedures to be kept alive.


It's not silly when it is true.

Lack of insurance does lead to the death of people...if you deny that...then I don't think it is I who isn't within the realm of logic and reason.

Are you saying that you don't think there has ever been a case where someone was sick...treatment was available...but because of not having insurance and not being able to afford the treatment...they have died??? Are you honestly saying that has never happened? Not to mention all the others that don't die...but suffer greatly???



posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 02:01 AM
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Originally posted by GorehoundLarry
Honestly,

I'm still waiting for a valid answer on why I should be against this bill. Even though it has it's flaws (what? you want or expect a perfect holy bill? lol), it's probably going to be beneficial to many.

As for the taxes skyrocketing...doesn't it depend on how much you make? Even though that Theory is pretty scary for those who make a certain amount a year, it is just a theory and an opinion as there is no solid proof of such.

But thank you all for contributing.


Here is the run down:
People who pay for health insurance are angry that uninsured individuals are going to have to pay for their insurance.

What the F indeed.


Here is just one glaring example of the mendacity tyrannical government advocates so often rely upon. As another poster has already correctly called you out on your refusal to acknowledge the informed reasons those who are against this legislation, and speak to their specific concerns intelligently, instead you continue to spread falsehoods, generalizations, and other forms of fallacy. What world do you live in that the run down can effectively be reduced to people who pay for health insurance are that uninsured individuals are going to have to pay for their insurance? What reality is this coming from.

The disingenuous title of this thread is outrageous, as you have not offered any information at all, but instead have relied upon a clearly uninformed opinion. You fallacious arguments that because taxes fund government, that this is evidence of a government that controls your life, and most ridiculously you offer up as an example of government control by pointing to local governmental sanitation departments.

While the title of this thread offers hope of a serious and valuable debate, instead you make ludicrous arguments that tyranny is just a way of life, and that we should accept it and live with it, and by your own pretzel logic, without government control we would all perish in the aftermath of chaos. Never mind the fact that income taxes, (by far the largest example of federal, state, and local control), did not even see its first incarnation until the Civil War. Do you understand? The first income ever passed by Congress was done so during the Civil War to pay for the war, unless you care to make the argument that if there had been an income tax prior to that the Civil War wouldn't even have happened.

Indeed, before that first income tax, Americans did not have to deal with such an intrusive tax at all, not even when they were colonists under England's rule. Perhaps that's why the chaos known as The American Revolution came about, because King George, and the royalty that preceded him failed to effectively establish a governmental control beginning with an income tax.

Beyond that, the FBI, CIA, DEA, EPA, CDC, FEMA, the Federal Reserve, and Homeland Security, didn't exist, until after 1900. They were not created because of the utter chaos that The United States had fallen into, but hey, don't let facts get in the way of your uninformed zeal.



posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 07:49 AM
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Originally posted by GorehoundLarry
Honestly,

I'm still waiting for a valid answer on why I should be against this bill. Even though it has it's flaws (what? you want or expect a perfect holy bill? lol), it's probably going to be beneficial to many.





Honestly, it seems that you have your mind made up and nothing will change it. Maybe i am wrong.

But i did provide you several valid reasons that you have failed to address. You cannot shrug off peoples replies if you really want to be honest.



posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 08:07 AM
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I always find the people who support the bill have no idea what is in it. They immediately start asking why I'm against health care and helping the poor. Apparently THEY have no idea what's actually in the bill.



posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 08:09 AM
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reply to post by Zanti Misfit
 


And when you choose not to buy health care and then you get sick, the rest of us have to foot the bill for you. That's the way it was before hcr. No thank you, get a job and pay your own health bills.

They are sadly misinformed because of the right wing media. Hell the right wing media has even brainwashed many into think the msm is liberal



So how come the majority of the media is owned by rich conservatives??



posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 08:17 AM
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Originally posted by Zanti Misfit
reply to post by OutKast Searcher
 


" Would you care to tell me how this is socialist at all??? Specific examples would be nice. "

Because it is " They " who are Dictating the terms of this HCB , and not " We" who in a Free Society, have a Right to have our say by Voting on it . Remove the process of hearing the Peoples voice , and Socialism takes it's Place .


[edit on 1-4-2010 by Zanti Misfit]


Do you even know what socialism is?



posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 08:42 AM
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reply to post by damwel
 


In the silly ideological debate between liberal and conservative, the MSM is "liberal" when compared to the average American. This is why Americans think the MSM is liberal...comparatively they are.

But that really doesn't matter. None of them cover the news adequately. Until they do, whether they are liberal or not is a moot point. They are not news, they are "news".

If people realized that they were the mouthpiece of the machine, they would realize exactly how Orwellian and facist America has become.



posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 09:01 AM
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reply to post by damwel
 


" And when you choose not to buy health care and then you get sick, the rest of us have to foot the bill for you. " That's the way it was before " hcr.
..........................................

No thank you, get a job and pay your own health bills. "



Would you care to Explain the " Pretzel Logic " of yours in this statement ? How are you paying for my Health Care " BEFORE this HCB was even enacted ?



posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 10:32 AM
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Have all the posters here read the 2700 pages of the HC bill ?


Im just wondering since every one knows best, and no one agrees to anything..



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