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Are HC Opponents Informed or Misinformed?

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posted on Apr, 1 2010 @ 07:49 PM
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For over a year now, Health Care has sadly been a debate in this country. You know times are rough when there's drama in your Health. But what is the big fight about?

Well, many opponents of Obama's Health Care plan is that they don't want the government involved with their health, or even their lives. Yes, that's right. They don't want the government involved with their lives. Sounds fair enough and reasonable, but is it?

Isn't the government involved in one form or another?

Let's look at the things that the US government is involved with that affects Your personal life:
Drinking Age
State Highways
Sending our men and women to war
Parking
School
Taxes
Garbage Pick Up
Censorship on Television
The Patriot Act (which is a huge violation of our freedoms, thanks Bush)
Medicare
and the list grows and grows....



Now all of sudden, many self acclaimed constitutionalists are taking the advice of Glenn Beck and being angry that a Democrat indeed passed a new bill that might (or might not) be beneficial to all American citizens in regards to health care.

But why are the so opposed to it? Besides the invalid argument of the government being involved, they believe it removes our freedoms and rapes the constitution. But really, it doesn't in any way. Have these people read the Bill? Most of them haven't actually. Instead, they get their information from biased "news" and websites that are owned by Conservatives or opponents of Democrats or anyone who dislikes the President in general.

Instead of them getting their disinformation, they should do more research, but they refuse to. However, I will admit, some of them make valid points that this new bill may indeed cause severe economic nightmares for the future. Of course this is highly possible but who knows that the case may turn out to be...

So I'm curious, if the Bill isn't disrespecting the Constitution or removing liberties and it isn't the only thing that is government related..then why the big upset?

Perhaps it's a Party ideology. You have to be (and have a perfect right to be) bitter OR angry that your Party did not make it into office. For Republicans, they're obviously angry that a Democrat is in the White House. If McCain won, we'd be hearing nonsense and propaganda from the Liberals and Democrats.

It's a lose lose situation really.

But hey, at least I'll have health insurance now.

So ATS, right here, inform me why you are against (and why I should be as well) against this HC Bill. Please, educate me and perhaps others on the matter. I don't think I've seen one healthy conversation or debate on the matter without name calling (and yes, I've contributed to the name calling, I won't deny it)

Cheers!

[edit on 1-4-2010 by GorehoundLarry]

[edit on 1-4-2010 by GorehoundLarry]




posted on Apr, 1 2010 @ 08:24 PM
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So you're fine with people being fined for not buying something mandated by the government? What if they decide to mandate amerikans buy GM, or make certain hair cuts mandatory like North Korea?

How about them lying and saying this will save us money. Really a trillion dollar program will save us money? How about you spend yourself into a hole then explain to your creditors you want to spend even more money to make money.

Some how socialism has become all the rage in Amerika and I somehow think it has to do with this Politically correct touchy feely bull crap.



posted on Apr, 1 2010 @ 08:27 PM
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If you want to keep your current HC plan, you're allowed to.



posted on Apr, 1 2010 @ 08:31 PM
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reply to post by GorehoundLarry
 


You know...

There are many parts to a puzzle. Long story short over time due to greed of the companies and government the health care industry will become fully gub ment run. And as much as these geniuses mismanage EVERYTHING they touch it will raise taxes to much.



posted on Apr, 1 2010 @ 08:31 PM
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I'm upset that they use the word "reform". The bill does nothing against the FDA, not much against Big Pharma or the Insurance industry nor the "new" medical industry that can only put round pegs in round holes. Reading the bill I see lots of money spent for paybacks. I see a lot of new and increased taxes in the bill. I see the same old - same old. I could have done a whole lot more with a whole lot less. Of course I don't have to pay off anyone either.

We have cures against influenzal pneumonia, stuff to fight aids & cancer are out there as well. These are not expensive! The bill supports the status quo and does nothing to dislodge the log jam that enriches those at the expense of the ill.

Celiac (where wheat, oats, barley & rye is a poison to your system) strikes 1 out of 160 people but is only tested for in high density Irish areas. It is ignored in the rest of the country. Symptoms are treated while the cause is a "guess". Health Care Bill, I don't think so.



posted on Apr, 1 2010 @ 08:34 PM
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Originally posted by oppaperclip
reply to post by GorehoundLarry
 


You know...

There are many parts to a puzzle. Long story short over time due to greed of the companies and government the health care industry will become fully gub ment run. And as much as these geniuses mismanage EVERYTHING they touch it will raise taxes to much.



Will it become worse than the Health Insurance companies who would deny you for previous conditions? Not sure, but like I've mentioned, it's worth a shot. And yes, there is a high risk of the system becoming corrupted or abused by certain politicians or even the president.

But hey, so concerned about health care? Maybe America needs to wake up and stop eating sh*t food. (fast food and energy drinks).

That's the first step in repairing Health Care.



posted on Apr, 1 2010 @ 08:34 PM
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many are simply ignorant and are programmed to oppose it.

many still already have healthcare, a cush job, etc etc etc...so they dont give a rats arse about the have nots and can be opposed to it simply because they dont care, and of course like having something not everyone has.

Some truely do understand the health care bill and oppose it on philosophical grounds in general

the last group of people are the only ones to debate with...the first group will eventually learn through experience, and the second group can simply be ignored.



posted on Apr, 1 2010 @ 08:37 PM
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I have a spiffy idea. Let's all READ IT, and then we can be more informed than most of those who voted on it.

It takes a while. I suggest packing a lunch and libations. Also useful to have a notepad for marking areas of interest.

Then, we can all discuss what we think the undefined to-be-determined language means.

Did I mention that it's large? It is. HERE it is broken up into text or .pdf, depending upon your viewing requirements.

.......... and HERE are the seven versions of the Bill, including the final one. Okay, I'm through for now.

[edit on 1/4/10 by argentus]

[edit on 1/4/10 by argentus]



posted on Apr, 1 2010 @ 08:37 PM
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Originally posted by Doctor G

We have cures against influenzal pneumonia, stuff to fight aids & cancer are out there as well. These are not expensive!


really?



Sales of Trimeris' AIDS drug Fuzeon are on the decline, but its price is on the rise.

The Durham company disclosed in a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission this week that the wholesale price of a one-year supply of Fuzeon has been increased by 3 percent. The new price: $30,600

link



posted on Apr, 1 2010 @ 08:39 PM
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reply to post by GorehoundLarry
 


This is not about eating junk food. This is about control and how they will get more of it. You said it yourself they are in control of so much from cradle to grave.

Health care would be nice if they did real reform, but that would have been work with no payoff. They could have made it possible to shop for health care in any state, making competition tougher. But no they are going to make a mandatory service out of it.

Lots of this is Unconstitutional, you have a computer go to a site and read it.

[edit on 1-4-2010 by oppaperclip]



posted on Apr, 1 2010 @ 08:49 PM
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Originally posted by oppaperclip
reply to post by GorehoundLarry
 


This is not about eating junk food.

[edit on 1-4-2010 by oppaperclip]



Really? It's not? That's why most Americans are obese or end up in the hospital because of heart failure from all that fast food or end up getting cancer from smoking or drinking? I guess you'e right, it's not about health when it comes to health care.

... !!!! WHAT



posted on Apr, 1 2010 @ 09:01 PM
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Originally posted by GorehoundLarry

But hey, at least I'll have health insurance now.




Not quite in the way you expect it, however. The government isn't handing out free health insurance. They're requiring you to buy it.

The fact that they're requiring you to buy it is what is unconstitutional about this bill.



posted on Apr, 1 2010 @ 09:13 PM
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Originally posted by de Thor

Originally posted by GorehoundLarry

But hey, at least I'll have health insurance now.




Not quite in the way you expect it, however. The government isn't handing out free health insurance. They're requiring you to buy it.

The fact that they're requiring you to buy it is what is unconstitutional about this bill.


Really? So buying health insurance is unconstitutional.

Well hell, I guess the insurances companies are a bunch of commies who rape America's favorite document.
(but they do rape you in other ways)



posted on Apr, 1 2010 @ 09:19 PM
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reply to post by GorehoundLarry
 


" Really? So buying health insurance is unconstitutional. "

No , buying Health Care Insurance should be a Choice Americans freely make concerning their bodies . This Issue is as simple as that . Where is the Choice in this HCB ? There is None......



posted on Apr, 1 2010 @ 09:25 PM
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Regardless of the bills content or lack thereof we simply cannot afford this bill. We have been told and have seen with our own eyes that the country is either going broke or is already broke. Tacking on an extra $870 billion (probably more) onto an already unsustainable national debt could be the final nail in the coffin for this country. The price alone is enough to turn people against it.



posted on Apr, 1 2010 @ 09:27 PM
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Originally posted by Zanti Misfit
reply to post by GorehoundLarry
 


" Really? So buying health insurance is unconstitutional. "

No , buying Health Care Insurance should be a Choice Americans freely make concerning their bodies . This Issue is as simple as that . Where is the Choice in this HCB ? There is None......


Hm, interesting.
Every person I know who doesn't have insurance BEGS for it. Maybe I'm just surrounded by crazies who want insurance. Perhaps.

I want to meet someone who Doesn't want it, I'll shake their hand and give them props.



posted on Apr, 1 2010 @ 09:28 PM
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Originally posted by GorehoundLarry

Originally posted by de Thor

Originally posted by GorehoundLarry

But hey, at least I'll have health insurance now.




Not quite in the way you expect it, however. The government isn't handing out free health insurance. They're requiring you to buy it.

The fact that they're requiring you to buy it is what is unconstitutional about this bill.


Really? So buying health insurance is unconstitutional.

Well hell, I guess the insurances companies are a bunch of commies who rape America's favorite document.
(but they do rape you in other ways)


I think you totally missed my point here. They're REQUIRING you to buy it. The government is not allowed to REQUIRE you to buy anything.

Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution states the powers of Congress. I suggest you take a look at it and tell me where you think it says they are allowed to FORCE you to buy anything.



posted on Apr, 1 2010 @ 09:34 PM
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reply to post by GorehoundLarry
 


The healthcare bill has some good points, but also some sinister points, such as this:


Required RFID implanted chip
Sec. 2521, Pg. 1000 – The government will establish a National Medical Device Registry. What does a National Medical Device Registry mean?

National Medical Device Registry from H.R. 3200 [Healthcare Bill], pages 1001-1008:

(g)(1) The Secretary shall establish a national medical device registry (in this subsection referred to as the ‘registry’) to facilitate analysis of postmarket safety and outcomes data on each device that— ‘‘(A) is or has been used in or on a patient; ‘‘(B)and is— ‘‘(i) a class III device; or ‘‘(ii) a class II device that is implantable, life-supporting, or life-sustaining.”

Then on page 1004 it describes what the term “data” means in paragraph 1,

section B:
‘‘(B) In this paragraph, the term ‘data’ refers to information respecting a device described in paragraph (1), including claims data, patient survey data, standardized analytic files that allow for the pooling and analysis of data from disparate data environments, electronic health records, and any other data deemed appropriate by the Secretary”

What exactly is a class II device that is implantable? Approved by the FDA, a class II implantable device is an “implantable radio frequency transponder system for patient identification and health information.” The purpose of a class II device is to collect data in medical patients such as “claims data, patient survey data, standardized analytic files that allow for the pooling and analysis of data from disparate data environments, electronic health records, and any other data deemed appropriate by the Secretary.”

See it for yourself: www.fda.gov...

source

The sticking points for this writer are:

The bill is a presidential "edict," not a proper, passed through House and Senate before signing, and signed by a president who refuses to produce his birth records or even Harvard U. records. Also, Obama did not properly swear the Constitutional oath.
The is not the actions of a president, but of a Dictator. George W. bush set the presidency up this way, and ensured it's survival with the Patriot Act and many presidential "edicts" wholly designed to give all governmental power to the president, who most certainly has a master or masters.

The bill itself is not Constitutional, in that it bypasses the 10th Amendment and the State's power, and the "We the People Power" is a moot point. A government mandate that will ensure the complete breakdown of the American economy, and possibly a new world order like takeover. I said possible, but more like probable.



posted on Apr, 1 2010 @ 09:43 PM
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reply to post by de Thor
 



The government requires you to:
pay taxes
abide the drinking age
don't drink and drive
not smoke the green (which is changing as time goes on)
And beyond.

Believe it or not, the government is responsible for a lot of ways of living your life. This isn't anything new.

Like I siad, that's just the way it is. The government affects your every day life in many, MANY other forms.



posted on Apr, 1 2010 @ 09:54 PM
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reply to post by GorehoundLarry
 


Your either not getting it, or deliberately deciding to avoid one fact.

It is against the constitution to mandate that anyone buy any good or service. They cant do it....period . . .

Therefore this bill is unconstitutional , once again facilitating a power grab by the government on the citizens of the United States of America.....

punishable by increasing fines and jail time......

Im sorry, but if i dont want to be on insurance, i WONT be, and you arent going to punish me for NOT being on it, by making me buy it for someone else.........period . . .



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