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Some Questions for Christians (and others)

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posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 12:20 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by oliveoil
Wasn't Arius' claim put to rest many moons ago?


no, they lost the political battle and afterword they were called heretics


The Bible contests to Jesus being eternal. PROF.... COL1:16 Jn 1:3 Heb 1:2


none of these scriptures say jesus is eternal.

col 1:[16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

no mention of him being eternal. i does say that jesus had a significant role in creation. but would this verse be invalid if jesus was created bfore creation?

john 1:[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

nothing about him being eternal here either. only that he had a part in creation

heb 1:[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

again creation. not eternal.

what you have proven to me is that jesus helped to create all things. not that jesus is eternal


The natural question was is if the Son was born or begotten there must have been a time when he did not exist.
the answer found in scripture was, There was never a time when he (the word) did not exist. Jesus was begotten eternally.
Now answer my question about Col 1:16
I dont think you can.


co 1:[16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
[18] And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
[19] For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

does this prove that jesus doesnt have a beginning. no.

john 3:[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

its not just begotten. its "only begotten"

jesus is the only direct creation of God.

jesuswas created.

when?

jhn 1:[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

"in the beginning" is commonly aceepted amoung scholars as the beginning of the creation of our universe.

jesus was created before all other things, because we can see that when other things were created, jesus was with god.

does this mean that jesus deserves the credit for creation? no. jesus was God's "craftsman"

proof? proverbs 8 (which is accepted amoung scholars to be depicting jesus

22“The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; 23I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. 24When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; 25before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. 27I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. 30Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, 31rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind.

yes jesus had created, but it was the same as a builder using someone else's blueprints. while jesus was the builder, God was the arquitecht.

the scriptures you quoted show us just how old jesus is, but none show jesus to not have a beginning.


Are you serious. What these passages are saying is that he(Jesus) is the CREATOR of everything!!! For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth.

You seem to be taking the word create completely out of context. Let me help you with the meaning of create. It means only one thing and one thing only
Merriam Webster-1 : to bring into existence.There can only be one being (God) that can bring into existence something from nothing? Jesus is HE!!
Your theory on Jesus in incorrect.



[edit on 24-4-2010 by oliveoil]




posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 01:37 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 



Originally posted by AshleyD
reply to post by kidflash2008
 


I don't think Yahweh and Jesus are literally the same entity. Just like a man and woman are not literally the same entity in marriage.

But both are 'unified' and seen as 'one flesh.' That is the best I know how to explain it. Three entities (Father, Son, and Spirit), united as one. Just like a husband and wife are two entities united as one.


Ashley get's it, with this simple but effective explanation based on the scripture in Genesis 2:24


That is why a man will leave his father and mother and will be united with his wife, and they will become one flesh.


This is further reflected in Mark 10:8

and the two will be one. So they are no longer two but one.


Or Matthew 19: 5&6

5And said, For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be united firmly (joined inseparably) to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh? 6So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder (separate).


Some of the comments from other people fail to consider God's and Jesus
perspective on unity. Sadly some people seem more determined to defend old church dogma than learn the truth from the scriptures. I get it, it's a very emotional topic. But these scriptures make it very clear. Those that emotionally cling to old dogma, instead of logically reexamining the scriptures can never progress beyond the elementary teachings of the bible.

Hebrews 5:12

You have been believers so long now that you ought to be teaching others. Instead, you need someone to teach you again the basic things about God's word. You are like babies who need milk and cannot eat solid food.


All Christians need to be like the 1st century Bereans.

Acts 17:11

And the people of Berea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they listened eagerly to Paul's message. They searched the Scriptures day after day to see if Paul and Silas were teaching the truth.






[edit on 24-4-2010 by Blue_Jay33]



posted on Apr, 24 2010 @ 11:27 PM
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reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 



Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


Ok, Mr Blue Jay lets see If you can shed some light into this particular scripture.
Unfortunately your fellow Witness can not.Forget the Church mumbo jumbo dogma, I want to know According to Colossians 1:16 Who you think Jesus is.



posted on Apr, 25 2010 @ 07:47 AM
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Originally posted by oliveoil
Are you serious. What these passages are saying is that he(Jesus) is the CREATOR of everything!!! For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth.

You seem to be taking the word create completely out of context. Let me help you with the meaning of create. It means only one thing and one thing only
Merriam Webster-1 : to bring into existence.There can only be one being (God) that can bring into existence something from nothing? Jesus is HE!!
Your theory on Jesus in incorrect.


thats your reply?

i just showed you 2 scriptures that make it clear that jesus was created, AND i tied in your scriptures with proverb 8 which also shows jesus was created and his relation to the creation process...

vs.

you have yet to show me one scripture that says "jesus is eternal" or "jesus is uncreated"

and IM the one who's incorrect?

what im about to say i say with full respect. i mean it, im not trying to insult you but im telling you this from the heart.

you need to learn how to read the scriptures you are citing.

you have a scripture that uses the word "firstborn". when GOD is described in a superlative form, he is described as "most high OVER all the earth". yet jesus is describe with "firstborn". even IF firstborn means eminence, 1- jesus is still be classified with the rest of creation and 2- the word firstborn when used as eminence ALWAYS shows top eminence UNDER the father. even the scripture calling david "firstborn" shows that david answers to someone.

im sorry oliveoil, unless you learn that God used certain words in his bible for a reason, there isnt really more i can tell you



posted on Apr, 25 2010 @ 07:50 AM
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Originally posted by DISRAELI
Yes, he can be, if the "begetting" is happening eternally, without any reference to time, which is what the church teaches about the relation between the divine Father and the divine Son.


begetting cannot happen eternally. the word beget by its very nature is a single action, not continuous.

let me ask you this. why is it that certain words like "beget", "son", "firstborn" have perfectly straight forward definitions UNTIL you apply them to the son?

is it not possible that the definitions have to be twisted alittle to make the "divinity of christ" fit?



posted on Apr, 25 2010 @ 09:11 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

let me ask you this. why is it that certain words like "beget", "son", "firstborn" have perfectly straight forward definitions UNTIL you apply them to the son?



The human mind is not capable of comprehending God.
Therefore there are no words in human speech which can describe God accurately.
All human words, used to describe God, are necessarily metaphorical.
All the best philosophers and theologians know this.

Therefore there is no point in getting pedantic about the fact that we are using words in metaphorical ways.

It would be possible, by your method of argument, to prove that God has buttocks.
The argument would go like this;
It is stated in Psalm 2 v4 that God "sits in the heavenly places".
I look in my Concise Oxford Dictionary for a definition of the word "sit".
I find the word "sit" defined as "Take or be in a position in which body is supported more or less upright by buttocks resting on ground or raised seat."
I have thus proved, by comparing scripture with a strict dictionary definition of a word, that God must have a physical body with buttocks.
That's what can happen when you rely on the over-simplistic approach of employing strict dictionary definitions.

As we all know, the word "sit" in the Psalm is used metaphorically.
Similarly, in theology, the word "beget" is used metaphorically.

We believe that whatever happens in the relationship between the Father and the Son, it is something which happens eternally, because they are both eternal.
There cannot possibly be any accurate human words for this, for the reason already given; but since we are calling them "Father" and "Son", we have decided to call it "begetting".

If you don't like metaphors, you must quarrel with a large part of the Bible.




[edit on 25-4-2010 by DISRAELI]



posted on Apr, 25 2010 @ 10:08 AM
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reply to post by oliveoil
 


Why you asking rhetorical questions?

I am sorry oliveoil, but your posts indicate that Romans 10:2 applies to you.

2 I bear them witness that they have a [certain] zeal and enthusiasm for God, but it is not enlightened and according to [correct and vital] knowledge.



posted on Apr, 25 2010 @ 12:30 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 



you have yet to show me one scripture that says "jesus is eternal" or "jesus is uncreated"


Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

This about sums it up

I have also showed you that Jesus is THE creator and the definition for create
(to bring into existence)

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Common sense tells us that If things exist, there must be something (God) who brought these things into existence. Matter does not produce matter on its own.There can not be TWO creators. You seem to dodge this scripture all together.

[edit on 25-4-2010 by oliveoil]



posted on Apr, 25 2010 @ 12:37 PM
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Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by oliveoil
 


Why you asking rhetorical questions?

I am sorry oliveoil, but your posts indicate that Romans 10:2 applies to you.

2 I bear them witness that they have a [certain] zeal and enthusiasm for God, but it is not enlightened and according to [correct and vital] knowledge.





LOL, Whats a matter Blue jay, Cant answer my question about Col 1:16?
I didnt think so.



posted on Apr, 25 2010 @ 02:29 PM
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Originally posted by oliveoil

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by oliveoil
 


Why you asking rhetorical questions?

I am sorry oliveoil, but your posts indicate that Romans 10:2 applies to you.

2 I bear them witness that they have a [certain] zeal and enthusiasm for God, but it is not enlightened and according to [correct and vital] knowledge.





LOL, Whats a matter Blue jay, Cant answer my question about Col 1:16?
I didnt think so.


Sure I can, Jesus Christ is the Son of Yehowah(Hebrew) the Almighty God.
And God used his Son Jesus as the master builder to create the entire universe.

But you already knew that.



posted on Apr, 25 2010 @ 11:35 PM
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Originally posted by Blue_Jay33

Originally posted by oliveoil

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by oliveoil
 


Why you asking rhetorical questions?

I am sorry oliveoil, but your posts indicate that Romans 10:2 applies to you.

2 I bear them witness that they have a [certain] zeal and enthusiasm for God, but it is not enlightened and according to [correct and vital] knowledge.





LOL, Whats a matter Blue jay, Cant answer my question about Col 1:16?
I didnt think so.


Sure I can, Jesus Christ is the Son of Yehowah(Hebrew) the Almighty God.
And God used his Son Jesus as the master builder to create the entire universe.

But you already knew that.

If God "USED" his son (Jesus) as the master builder to "CREATE" the entire universe which includes heaven and earth why does Genesis 1:1 Say that God alone created. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
You seem to be a little confused.This is on page one in the Old testament.



posted on Apr, 26 2010 @ 06:29 AM
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Originally posted by DISRAELI
The human mind is not capable of comprehending God.


not true. in fact, i life depends of knowing GOD.

john 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

why would God put so much emphasis and importance on knowing him if he is incomprehensible?

**** i understand that there are things about god we dont know, but that doesnt mean that we cant learn about them in the future.


Therefore there are no words in human speech which can describe God accurately.


the scriptures are inspired, are you suggesting that God cannot correctly describe himself?


All human words, used to describe God, are necessarily metaphorical.
All the best philosophers and theologians know this.


God is "just"
God is "love"
"almighty"
"eternal"
"God is a spirit"

are these metaphoric?


Therefore there is no point in getting pedantic about the fact that we are using words in metaphorical ways.


no i understand that there are many things that are said about GOD that are metaphoric. im saying: not all statements are metaphoric.


Similarly, in theology, the word "beget" is used metaphorically.

We believe that whatever happens in the relationship between the Father and the Son, it is something which happens eternally, because they are both eternal.
There cannot possibly be any accurate human words for this, for the reason already given; but since we are calling them "Father" and "Son", we have decided to call it "begetting".


here is the problem. you are assuming that jesus is eternal (there is no scripture to support this.) because of this assumption, the word "beget" makes no sense. even though it literally and perfectly describes the nature of jesus, its definition MUST be twisted to suit this new doctrine.

this is what i was saying before. words with simple and well known definitions must be changed to make the divinity of christ "fit"

think about it. if jesus and GOD are essentially the same person, but different, there ARE better ways to describe that in english than "father" and "son" which so quickly puts an image in or head of someone superior over the other.



posted on Apr, 26 2010 @ 06:37 AM
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Originally posted by oliveoil
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

This about sums it up


hold your horses,

1:8 is NOT jesus speaking...

KJV leaves out "God".

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

This is GOD speaking, not jesus even though verses 4- 7 IS jesus. but jesus' greeting is ended with "amen"

is there another scripture you would like to show?



posted on Apr, 26 2010 @ 06:47 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


where does it say Jesus stopped speaking?

Revelation 22
The River of Life
1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever. 6The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."
Jesus Is Coming
7"Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book."

8I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"

10Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near. 11Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

14"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

16"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

17The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

20He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

21The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.



posted on Apr, 26 2010 @ 06:56 AM
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Originally posted by oliveoil
If God "USED" his son (Jesus) as the master builder to "CREATE" the entire universe which includes heaven and earth why does Genesis 1:1 Say that God alone created. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
You seem to be a little confused.This is on page one in the Old testament.


read it again.

does gen 1:1 say "alone"?

it doesnt. but it does give God the credit for creation. his idea, his design, his credit. even if jesus was the one who physically did it. read proverbs 8 again.

col 1:16 also sheds even more light when you look at the greek.

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"

"all things were created by him" is actually a mistranslation. the word rendered "by" here is "δι" (dia) which is actually "through" (could also be rendered via)

"all things were created through him"

we are talking to each other "through" the internet. the internet doesnt receive the credit for my words, but it does post my words for all to see and reply to.

jesus didnt create. God created "through" jesus.

"For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him."

bibles that correct the KJV oversight -

New Living Translation (©2007)
English Standard Version (©2001)
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
International Standard Version (©2008)
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
American Standard Version
English Revised Version
Weymouth New Testament
World English Bible
Young's Literal Translation



posted on Apr, 26 2010 @ 07:05 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by DISRAELI
The human mind is not capable of comprehending God.


not true. in fact, i life depends of knowing GOD.


I did not say "knowing", I said "comprehending".

Comprehending is something much bigger than "knowing".

The basic meaning of the word "comprehend" is to "include".
Thus a "comphensive study" is one which includes everything.
A "comprehensive school" in England is one which includes children of all abilities.
To "comprehend" an idea means to "include" it in the mind.

My point is that God is so big by nature that he cannot be "included" in a human mind. God is infinite, the human mind is finite, and you cannot include something which is infinite inside something which is finite.

This is a well-known principle frequently stated in philosophy and theology.

Dionysus the Areopagite, in his "Mystical Theology" argues, on that basis, that it was impossible to describe God except in purely negative terms; he ends up giving a list of all the things which God is NOT.

Similarly, the philosopher Wittgenstein, in more recent times, concluded his most famous work with "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent", meaning that the Ultimate is so indescribable that there is no point in making the attempt.

I think they were both mistaken; believers in a Biblical God need to try to describe him in whatever imperfect terms they can find, while constantly being aware that they are imperfect.

This is what I was talking about.

It is true that we are called to know God, but the point is not relevant to what I was saying.

In fact, to "know" God in the Biblical sense is really about having a relationship with him.

It is possible to have a relationship even with another human without fully comprehending them.






Therefore there are no words in human speech which can describe God accurately.


the scriptures are inspired, are you suggesting that God cannot correctly describe himself?


God cannot accurately describe himself to human understanding, because human understanding is not capable of taking in a fully accurate description. It would be rather like trying to teach nuclear physics to a two-year-old child. We can only understand simplified versions, so simplified versions is what we get.



All human words, used to describe God, are necessarily metaphorical.
All the best philosophers and theologians know this.


God is "just"
God is "love"
"almighty"
"eternal"
"God is a spirit"

are these metaphoric?

Strictly speaking, yes. Please consult some good philosophers and theologians on this point.




this is what i was saying before. words with simple and well known definitions must be changed to make the divinity of christ "fit"

think about it. if jesus and GOD are essentially the same person, but different, there ARE better ways to describe that in english than "father" and "son" which so quickly puts an image in or head of someone superior over the other.


Since we believe that the divinity of Christ is scripturally based, then, yes, the rest of our descriptions of Christ are obliged to conform with that. The names "Father" and "Son" are chosen because they are also scriptural.



[edit on 26-4-2010 by DISRAELI]

[edit on 26-4-2010 by DISRAELI]



posted on Apr, 26 2010 @ 07:15 AM
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Originally posted by the illuminator
where does it say Jesus stopped speaking?


all over.

the commentary of revelation constantly switches speakers.

JOHN speaks here.
Revelation 22
1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb
2down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.
3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him.
4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.
5There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.

The Angel that is with John
6The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."

JESUS speaks
7"Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book."

JOHN
8I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me.

ANGEL
9But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"
10Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near. 11Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

GOD (psalm 18:20, Isaiah 40:10; isa 62:11; matt 6:6; heb 11:6)
12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Could be the GOD, but likely it is the Angel
14"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Jesus
16"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

Spirit and bride
17The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

Jesus or Angel
18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

20He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

John
21The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.

so the commentary changes all throughout.



posted on Apr, 26 2010 @ 07:29 AM
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Originally posted by DISRAELI
I did not say "knowing", I said "comprehending".

Comprehending is something much bigger than "knowing".

The basic meaning of the word "comprehend" is to "include".
Thus a "comphensive study" is one which includes everything.
A "comprehensive school" in England is one which includes children of all abilities.
To "comprehend" an idea means to "include" it in the mind.


i cant say i "know" algebra if i cant comprehend it. i can say i know "of" algebra.

how can anyone "know" GOD if he is incomprehensible?

where is the scripture that says God is incomprehensible?



God is "just"
God is "love"
"almighty"
"eternal"
"God is a spirit"

are these metaphoric?

Strictly speaking, yes. Please consult some good philosophers and theologians on this point.


so the love of god is metaphoric....


Since we believe that the divinity of Christ is scripturally based, then, yes, the rest of our descriptions of Christ are obliged to conform with that. The names "Father" and "Son" are chosen because they are also scriptural.


except its not.

no scriptures that say -
"jesus is GOD"
"jesus is eternal"
"God is incomprehensible"

how is it scriptural?

God is not a god of confusion (1 cor 14:33)

im sorry, but the trinity is VERY confusing



posted on Apr, 26 2010 @ 08:00 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566


how can anyone "know" GOD if he is incomprehensible?

where is the scripture that says God is incomprehensible?



so the love of god is metaphoric....


Yes, "love", used about God, is metaphorical

There is a human emotion called "love". God does not have that human emotion, but there is something in him which can best be described by that human word. "Love", as applied to God, is only an analogy. It is the closest we can get with imperfect human language.

The scripture that says God is incomprehensible is Genesis ch1 v1. It is not stated there directly, but it is the logical and necessary consequence of what that scripture states. The God who Created all things cannot be fully comprehended by anything inside that creation, for the reasons already given.

If you think that your mind is capable of "comprehending" God in the full sense, then you really, really do not understand just how great God is. Echoing the title of a famous book, "Your god is too small". Getting God into a human mind would be like trying to fit a gallon of water into a pint measure. There is simlpy not enough room. Do, please, try to think about that point, and contemplate just how great God is, instead of trying to reduce him to your own measure.

Oh, yes, nearly forgot. I was trying to explain earlier that the call to "know" God is the call to enter into relationship with him.

[edit on 26-4-2010 by DISRAELI]



posted on Apr, 26 2010 @ 08:19 AM
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Originally posted by DISRAELI
Yes, "love", used about God, is metaphorical

There is a human emotion called "love". God does not have that human emotion, but there is something in him which can best be described by that human word. "Love", as applied to God, is only an analogy. It is the closest we can get with imperfect human language.


wow, i dont know what to say.

your dismantling everything in the bible to prove a point, including something as straight forward as god's love. and you are doing this with absolute assumptions like "every word used to describe GOD is metaphoric"

im sorry, but i dont see were you can arrive at that conclusion from a scriptural base.


The scripture that says God is incomprehensible is Genesis ch1 v1. It is not stated there directly, but it is the logical and necessary consequence of what that scripture states. The God who Created all things cannot be fully comprehended by anything inside that creation, for the reasons already given.


gen 1:1 says no such thing. nor is it logical nor necessary.

that is an assumption. not scriptural


If you think that your mind is capable of "comprehending" God in the full sense, then you really, really do not understand just how great God is. Echoing the title of a famous book, "Your god is too small". Getting God into a human mind would be like trying to fit a gallon of water into a pint measure. There is simlpy not enough room. Do, please, try to think about that point, and contemplate just how great God is, instead of trying to reduce him to your own measure.

Oh, yes, nearly forgot. I was trying to explain earlier that the call to "know" God is the call to enter into relationship with him.


how can you enter a loving relationship with someone you dont know?

if god is incomprehensible, there is no way we can know him. there is no way we could possible find out what his will is or his thinking on anything. and yet the bible helps us do just that.

your entire argument is based on implied assumption and philosophy, not god's word. which is my point.

how can the trinity (human doctrine) be truth if it is not support by god's own word?




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