Can a State secede from the "Union" ? The new revolution

Originally posted by Fromabove

With the Constitution being the founding ordinance and there not being an non-secession clause expressly written therein, I would assume the founders left the door open for such remedies. The preamble saying in order to form a "more perfect union" to me says that they will be parties to a compact creating a union of states to be called the "Union"and not the transformation into a single entity, hence the words "The United States of America" and not just "America". We are a collection of unified States within the framework of a contract called the Constitution.

1. The Constitution is a document based in Common Law and recognizes the supremacy of the Common Law where it does not contradict organic or statute law.

2. Common Law, as the law of precedents, has resolved the question of the Constitution being a "compact." It does not need to be "explicitly" written anymore than the dating system used by the constitution needs to be "explicitly written" to avoid an argument as to whether or not the Constitution is actually using the Zorastrian calendar and doesn't actually come into effect until the year 2300 or whether or not "we the people" refers only to people signing the constitution, not the public at large. In each case the intent of the authors is paramount and the only legally authorized oracle of what the intent was is the Supreme Court.

Again, Texas vs. White:

All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the State. The act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final. The union between ... the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States.

Any further argument as to the absence or presence of "explicit language" is simply the transposing of hopes and desires on a fairly straightforward and utilitarian document.

Well considering this country was created by disobeying, the question is, Whats stopping it? If all 50 states governors seceded and then signed a treaty, and then re-wrote the constitution, who could stop them? That would be the safest way.

Originally posted by Myendica
If all 50 states governors seceded and then signed a treaty, and then re-wrote the constitution, who could stop them?

reality?


[BOILERPLATE: THE ABOVE POST IS INTENDED TO STAND ON ITS OWN; THE BASIS OF RHETORICAL SPEECH IS SUCCESS IN SUCCINCT FORM. HOWEVER, THESE WORDS ARE BEING ADDED TO MEET THE ATS WORD COUNT REQUIREMENT OF QUANTITY OVER QUALITY. PLEASE IGNORE THEM.]

[edit on 1-4-2010 by atreides]

reply to post by atreides


"reality?", doesn't complete a thought technically. could you elaborate what your intentions of "reality?" is? that is a very reasonable beginning to an idea.

edit- "that" = the quote of mine you quoted

[edit on 1-4-2010 by Myendica]

Originally posted by Myendica
reply to post by atreides

 

"reality?", doesn't complete a thought technically. could you elaborate what your intentions of "reality?" is? that is a very reasonable beginning to an idea.

edit- "that" = the quote of mine you quoted

[edit on 1-4-2010 by Myendica]

You posited a scenario based in fantasy and inquired what would stop that fantasy from coming true. Fantasies are stopped from becoming true by reality.

It is not necessary to develop a theory why unicorns don't breed with Michelle Obama and have elven children with magical powers. Some things can be assumed to be non-functional.

ok boys and girls if you wish to know if a state can secede from the union. i expound on that as i am a Grand Jurist for the great State of Idaho. the point should be here that we people have the power and can make it known thru our governor that we can break the contract with present government and contract a new one. The Constitution allows us not only redress of rights but removing the contract that we first made can also be voided by 75% of the states Grand jurists. We have just sent our Elders to the 50 states governors along with Grand jurists . and did give each governor of each state to follow the DeJur( or constitutional citizen ) or the De-facto Government. and each Governor that if they did not agree to De-jur rule that they would have to step down. Only california's governor resisted, but after consultation he recanted and signed. What this means. that now with in the boundaries of this Republic is a non defacto government in power. And they will resist. we have the armed forces and last i know some of the Fbi and all of the Provost Marshals on board. I as a Grand Jurist was asked by the Fbi "what were my intentions". I replied that i AM part of the citizens of these United States of America that wants conclusion to the contract with the present government and will work toward a different contract along with new represtentitives capable of understanding what a true Republic is. i have published my constitutional findings and will be more that happy to give to you my findings. Good Luck and as John Adams once said : You have a Republic if you can keep it" thankyou.

Originally posted by emsed1
It is illegal for any state to secede from the Union.

Can you show me where it is illegal for States to secede from the Union?

Sorry if this has been asked prior to me joining in

From the perspective of a journalist specializing in international affairs:

Here is the most likely scenario of what would occur if a state left the union:

The state in question would not be legally recognized by the United States of America, period. Instead the state would be seen as in a state of rebellion and dissent to the union and therefore it is a civil matter.

The allies and friendly nations of the US would also not recognize the independence of the state as a separate nation, and would not treat it as such, at all. No trade would be conducted and no ambassadors would be sent to or admitted from the state. Since the vast majority of the nations of the world are at least friendly to the US, only a small handful of rogue states (Iran, North Korea, Venezuela and most likely Cuba) would recognize the new nation.

Meanwhile, since the US would see the state as being in rebellion, it would be compelled to put down the revolt and return the state to participation in the union. This would most likely involve a military invasion of the state in question, and occupation while governance was restored.

Considering the current power of the US military, the invasion itself would be quick, overwhelming and decisive. Since this would be seen as a civil matter, no other nation's military forces would be involved without an expressed request for aid from the United States.

The occupation period would be very painful for the state, (think radical reconstruction after your Civil War) and would end with a new state government that is more friendly to the federal government.

I also do not care what state it would be. No one state can stand up to assault from the other 49 and the federal government.

There would be a civil war, far less intense or long as the first, but the result will be the same from any angle: The Union will win again.

The only thing the civil war resolved with regard to secession is that might makes right. The states have a right to secede there is no question. If anyone reads history there is no doubt that not a single state would have signed on to the constitution had their even been a hint of not being able to secede.

A few states have in thier constitutions that they are an inseparable part of the union, however this was done under coercion as a condition of acceptance by congress which makes it null and void and can easily be changed.

What most people do not understand is the constitution is a restriction on the federal government not on the people. Which means the maxim of law is "If it's not in there the federal government can't do it!" Since there is no provision in the constitution forbiding or even dealing with secession then the federal government has no authority whatsoever on the matter.

And further the 10th Amendment clearly leaves anything not mentioned up to the states or the people clearly putting the matter of secession into the hands of the people on the several states.

Also if you looking for specific documentation illustrating the states rights to secede look no further then the Deceleration of Independence which is our original founding document:

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security

reply to post by ProjectJimmy


Well it possible it could turn out as you say, however first of all I doubt all other 49 states would agree that its ok to invade the seceding state. Second I doubt a single state would do it except for maybe Texas. Most likely it would be a conglomeration of western states. And depending on which states they could have considerable resources.

Also you would have many Americans who support freedom and liberty flock to that state/s and fight if necassary. And still think there would be a divide in the military as to firing on fellow Americans even those seceding oorm the union.

So I don't think it is as black and white slam dunk the union wins as your scenario paints it.

It would depend on the state's individual Constitution whether or not they could secede from the union. Some states actually have it in their constitutions that secession is outlawed. Others like Texas have the right. (actually, in Texas's constitution, I think the words are "Just give us an excuse!")

reply to post by quisno


Man, your writing is hard to read. Might be because English is not my native language. Or it could be you write as you talk.

But what you are basically saying is that not only it CAN be done, you just did it. You personally were involved in all 50 states reciding from the existing Union? Can you provide us with any documentation of that? Maybe a copy of the document as it was signed by the Governors?

Originally posted by hawkiye
reply to post by ProjectJimmy

 

Well it possible it could turn out as you say, however first of all I doubt all other 49 states would agree that its ok to invade the seceding state. Second I doubt a single state would do it except for maybe Texas. Most likely it would be a conglomeration of western states. And depending on which states they could have considerable resources.

Also you would have many Americans who support freedom and liberty flock to that state/s and fight if necassary. And still think there would be a divide in the military as to firing on fellow Americans even those seceding oorm the union.

So I don't think it is as black and white slam dunk the union wins as your scenario paints it.

I agree that it would be unlikely for a single state to leave the union. Strength in numbers and all.

However, I disagree with your assessment of the overall support that a secessionist state would have from the American population. The demographics of the United States speak against your claim. The vast majority of Americans honestly just want to live their lives. A small minority of citizens will speak in support of secession but only a fraction of even them will lift a finger to aid it.

Worse yet for you, secession risks a monumental blowback of public opinion. The United States is a single unified nation right now, to undermine that could enrage a segment of the populace. The American people were brought up to believe their country is indivisible. Imagine the uproar when someone divides it. I was in the United States in 2001, I know what it sounds like when your country screams out for blood.

I think the most misguided bit of your analysis however is the military aspect. The United States Military will not fracture in a meaningful way, the national guards of the state or states in question may but that is all. I believe you seriously misunderstand the political ideals of the average soldier. Not all are conservatives, I've talked to literally hundreds of United States soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines in my job, most of them are average people.

You also are not taking into account the nature of modern military combat. Just because a citizen can fire a gun does not by any stretch make them a soldier. The nature of specialized modern combat also means that the average soldier has very little grasp of any tactics or strategy that does not deal with his or her specific job assignment.

Armies today do not work anything like armies did during the first Civil War, which was for all intents and purposes still a variation of Napoleonic warfare. The average citizen has no idea what an "order of battle" is or even what maneuver warfare is. Most enlisted soldiers don't either.

You are talking about taking on the best military force humanity has ever created, the United States Armed Forces, with what? A few defectors and militia? That's strategic suicide.

reply to post by ProjectJimmy



Unlike the past where in the Civil War of the 18th century, today would have a different outcome. First if any State seceded, and threats were made to keep it in the "Union" they would appeal to the UN for peace keeping forces and resolutions recognizing it as an independent republic "nation-state". Also other nations would support it such as Russia, China, etc.

reply to post by Fromabove

Unlike the past where in the Civil War of the 18th century, today would have a different outcome. First if any State seceded, and threats were made to keep it in the "Union" they would appeal to the UN for peace keeping forces and resolutions recognizing it as an independent republic "nation-state". Also other nations would support it such as Russia, China, etc.

You know, someone wrote about this a long time ago in 1861, here is how he put it.

A disloyal portion of the American people have during the whole year been engaged in an attempt to divide and destroy the Union. A nation which endures factious domestic division is exposed to disrespect abroad, and one party, if not both, is sure sooner or later to invoke foreign intervention.

First Annual Message December 3, 1861

reply to post by Fromabove


maybe those other countriess would but probably not china arent they like super pissed at taiwan over this type of thing?

reply to post by Fromabove


Are you kidding me? Other nations supporting and recognizing a breakaway from the United States? Maybe Iran, North Korea and Cuba but that's about it! No major nation, much less a major trading partner of the United States like China or Russia would ever do such a thing! To do so would be suicide for their relations with the US.

The United Nations at large probably will not even admit the state. Is Chechnya recognized as a nation? How about Taiwan or Palestine?

I also find it absolutely hilarious that right-wing Libertarians would ever go running to the hated United Nations to protect them from the big bad United States.

Get your independent state, and see how international politics really works. You won't have a leg to stand on with anyone that actually matters.

Edit: I could be wrong about this but I also do not think that the United States will call for international assistance either. The world will see this as an "American issue" and allow you guys to fight it out. You will be abandoned by all the world, facing the best military.

[edit on 9-4-2010 by ProjectJimmy]

Originally posted by quisno
ok boys and girls if you wish to know if a state can secede from the union. i expound on that as i am a Grand Jurist for the great State of Idaho. the point should be here that we people have the power and can make it known thru our governor that we can break the contract with present government and contract a new one. The Constitution allows us not only redress of rights but removing the contract that we first made can also be voided by 75% of the states Grand jurists. We have just sent our Elders to the 50 states governors along with Grand jurists . and did give each governor of each state to follow the DeJur( or constitutional citizen ) or the De-facto Government. and each Governor that if they did not agree to De-jur rule that they would have to step down. Only california's governor resisted, but after consultation he recanted and signed. What this means. that now with in the boundaries of this Republic is a non defacto government in power. And they will resist. we have the armed forces and last i know some of the Fbi and all of the Provost Marshals on board. I as a Grand Jurist was asked by the Fbi "what were my intentions". I replied that i AM part of the citizens of these United States of America that wants conclusion to the contract with the present government and will work toward a different contract along with new represtentitives capable of understanding what a true Republic is. i have published my constitutional findings and will be more that happy to give to you my findings. Good Luck and as John Adams once said : You have a Republic if you can keep it" thankyou.

So how did that work out for you there?

I was out in the western United States researching this last week, and I have absolutely zero reports of any of your members convincing the governors do to anything, much less take your "oath." So there's a lie I've got you in.

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere

In the end law and legality have absolutely no power.

Law is imaginary. The force behind it and the gun to your head however are not.

Im glad someone came out and said it.

I think secession is equivilant to revoloution in the context described. The legality is irrelevant. If several states leave the union, or attemp to, then the only way to get them back is negotiaton or force. Negotiating with the states that do empowers the cause. Military action would as well.

In all seriousness, I live in Louisiana and if we left the union, what would happen? Obama would try to get the state reeled back in. Bribery. The 3rd Louisiana purchase. If that failed then force results. And the American military acting upon US citizens would be a grave issue. It would lead to a much larger revolt.

It only takes one state attempting this to stop this nationwide political insanity. Unfortunately I'm not sure if there is a state government with enough hair on their ass to try it.