the fundmental doctrine of terrorism is that by inspiring terror one can reduce confidence in trusted institutions and beliefs thereby affecting political and or sociological change. What I dont understand is why the U.S. has not adopted this same doctrine as a way of destroying the islamic terrorists. Al queda, Hamas, and other terrorist organizations have typically recruited" soldiers" who being dissaffected with life, society, family, or whatever are vulnerable to mental condioning similar to that used by cult leaders to control thier flock. In this respect OBL is not much different than David koresh or the heavens gate cult. Once the idea that suicide in the service of god, alah, jehova, or bugs bunny is a one way ticket to heaven is accepted, these "soldiers" are more than willing to throw thier lves away. Why cant the U.S. (through intermediaries f course) use the same doctrine? Consider the following example, A U.S. preacher with a "fire and brimstone" style begins by preaching in the poorest neiborhoods of the rural south about the martys of christianinty. he then moves on to sermons about the wars of the ancient isrealites and how god protected and succored his chosen people. Interspersed with these sermons are messages about how The U.S. is now "gods land" and americans are "gods people". A few sermons on issac and abraham and how the soldiers of isreal having so much faith in jesus that they were willing to die ( and kill) for him gave them a one way pass through the pearly gates and boom all of a sudden you have a ready made base of suicide bombers. The next step of course would be to set up a training camp in the american S.W. to acclimate them to the climate under the supervision of the C.I.A. and special forces and we have a highly motivated well trained and fearless force. Then these men are given jobs in the Oil industry, diplomatic corps, military etc and they wait. The next time there is an attack on U.S. interests The intelligence services determine the identity and home town of each of the attackers and the members of this force raze it to the ground. Maybe through use of a dirty bomb maybe a fire maybe just the good old fashioned method of 10-20 walking through the town with smgs and shooting every man woman and child in side. The point being that anyone who takes part in a terrouist attack on the U.S. would also be responsible for the death of ALL of thier friends,family, neighbors, nieghbors friends etc. The response would be of an exponiential nature I.E. 2 afghanis and 2 saudis kill 10 americans and 200 saudis and 200 afghanis are killed all from those attackers hometown. (preferably close friends and family members) They pull another 911 we nuke 5 villages/cities. Eventually the middle east would either be devoid of people or those who survive would turn in anyone with ANY terroist sympathies for fear of U.S. reprisal.
Before you dismiss this idea out of hand or call it barbaric consider this, 2000 years ago a roman citizen could walk the length and breadth of the empire with no fear of robbery or harrasment. If he was set upon by bandits or rebels all he had to do was utter the words "I am a roman citizen" And they would pick another target So great was the retribution of the roman empire that none would tempt its wrath. as a result the empire lasted about 2 millenia.
Perhaps its time we started fighting fire with fire.

What is exactly was Shock And Awe if not a massive terrorist strike engineered by a country's government? Dropping heavy ordnance on the city of Baghdad, which has a population of 4 million? Simulcast around the world so people can see the massive explosions and the damage and hear the explosions.

What is militarily occupying a country with an overwhelming force, and having your government say "we don't do civilian body counts", implying that civilian deaths are not important. Do you think that might strike fear into the hearts of your average Joe Mohammed in Iraq?

If the US really wanted to go hardcore on State-Sponsored Terrorism, they would learn some stuff from Israel. Launching missiles into crowded streets, demolishing homes with bulldozers, moving into refugee camps with armored divisions of tanks, snubbing the entire international communities calls to halt, now THAT'S how to do terrorism RIGHT.

The Shock and Awe campign was a standard military campaign nothing more. And in war there are always civillian casualties. While it is regrettable it is also a fact. As to the international community, If, by international community, you mean the french, germans, canadians, belgians or others so what? Why shuld thier opinions be important to the U.S.? Why should the U.S. allow them to dictate to us? Every expert in the world believed that Iraq had WMDs. The U.N. thought so, The germans thought so, the french thought so, even your people thought so. We were the only ones with the balls to do anything about it. So the international community was wrong. They did not have WMDs. That does not negate the justification for invasion. If a cop shoots a man who was reacing into his pocket in what appears to be a threatening manner the shooting is still justified even if the suspect did not have a gun. The reason is that the cop could not know whether or not the suspect had a gun or not. Iraq acted as if it had WMDs, the international community believed iraq had WMDs, but only we acted on it. Far from being an indictment of the U.S. I believe the International community's refusal to act on a credible threat is an indictment of the Internationl community.
Also I was not reffering to Iraq but to Iran, Afghanistan, Suadi Arabia, the UAE and so on. the fact is these terrorist could not survive without the succor of the civillian population, therefore the civillian population is an accomplice and deserves punishment. If your nephew, son, neice, or friend is joining a terrorist organisation, or planning to become a suicide bomber, or commit an act of terrorism, and you do not turn him in, or stop him then you are an accomplice and deserve the same penalty.
The fact is these beasts are activly supported by the vast majority of the muslim/arab popultion and as a result they deserve to be punished.
The reason terrorist attack U.S. interests and murder U.S. citizens is because they do not fear Americas retribution. We have spent so many years following rules our enemies dont, and showing mercy that our enemies wont that they have no respect for us. The U.S. is percieved as a big puppy. "sure they got teeth and outweigh us but they dont bite" Well I say its time we not only bit, I say its time we maim, torture , and murder.
When we finaly catch OBL ( and we will sooner or later) I say we torture him on videotape untill he renouces his religion, Castrate him, and publicly execute him, then broadcast that tape to every Arab media outlet in the world as an object lesson in what happens when you challenge the U.S.
And If the rest of the world doesnt like it...............
Then leave us the hell alone. No more aid, no more trade, No more vacations in The U.S. No more contact with us, our people, our markets, or our products.
And if you still dont like it...............
Then try and stop us.

[Edited on 3-6-2004 by mwm1331]

The US had been doing this for years, its not new. Spies are terrorist, anyone doing something against another country is terrorism.

You may not think so because the goverment dosent tell it that way, or you dont here it in the media......

No spittincobra we have not. I'm not talkin about spies, I'm talking about the wholesale sluaghter of the civialian population that support our enemies. Instead of negotiating with Al sadr we should have killed him and every citizen in Najaf, destoyed every building slaughtered all the animals and salted (or radiated) the earth so that nothing else could ever live thier agin

Do you not think our goverment hasnt asassinted people?

Us going to Iraq, is doing what you are saying, there is nothing there. No threat was there. They didnt ask us to come and free them.

Face it you SIR, have been lied too. And until you stop believing everything you see on the news. You will be lied too.

spittincobra you're still thinking too small. The assasination of a few does not work, as isreal has so ably proved. We need to start wiping entire cities off the face of the earth.
For example when we discovered that the 911 attackers were Primrily Saudi Arabian we should have Nuked Mecca and Riyadah. If a terrorist attack is done by Iranians we set off a Tactical Nuke in Tehran. In the 70s when OPEC started the first oil crisis we should have invaded The founding Countries of OPEC and Destroyed thier capital cities utterly. Lest you think it wouldn't work ask yourself this, Considering what we did to Hiroshima and Nagasaki do you think that Japan will ever pose a threat to us again?

[Edited on 3-6-2004 by mwm1331]

Originally posted by SpittinCobra
The US had been doing this for years, its not new. Spies are terrorist, anyone doing something against another country is terrorism.

You may not think so because the goverment dosent tell it that way, or you dont here it in the media......

This isn't true. Terrorism is defined as acts of war or violence against ordinary civilians. This is used to install fear into the common population to obtain one's agenda. Spies target political/military targets, which would not fare as terrorism.

"anyone doing something against another country is terrorism". Thats a very broad statement (and a wrong one!).

Originally posted by mwm1331
We need to start wiping entire cities off the face of the earth.

This here is whats wrong with our wonderful planet. How long until some freak like you is in office?

For example when we discovered that the 911 attackers
Again the media tells you this. If you ask Me I would say 100% whity was behind 911. Meaning bush and his people paid the saudies to do what happen. There is rumor that some of the Hijakers are still alive. How could this happen? Wake up america , BOYCOT the news

Originally posted by mwm1331
spittincobra you're still thinking too small. The assasination of a few does not work, as isreal has so ably proved. We need to start wiping entire cities off the face of the earth.
For example when we discovered that the 911 attackers were Primrily Saudi Arabian we should have Nuked Mecca and Riyadah. If a terrorist attack is done by Iranians we set off a Tactical Nuke in Tehran. In the 70s when OPEC started the first oil crisis we should have invaded The founding Countries of OPEC and Destroyed thier capital cities utterly. Lest you think it wouldn't work ask yourself this, Considering what we did to Hiroshima and Nagasaki do you think that Japan will ever pose a threat to us again?

[Edited on 3-6-2004 by mwm1331]

No doubt about it, You are totally and completely Morally Bankrupt!! 'nuf said!

The US has this need to be politically correct about everything, and to hold ourselves up to a higher standard than the enemy, lest we become the very thing we are trying to eliminate. We give those who would destroy us safe haven to burn our flag and spit on our soldiers.

We have superior manpower and technology, yet we hold back using it because we worry about the the world's perception and judgement of us.

Those who criticize our efforts don't hesitate to take advantage of all the benefits of our society. They will decry capitalism and then eat lunch at McDonalds, and then drive home from their protest marches in their SUV's.

I say we should use covert tactics more often. For example, we should have kidnapped al Sadr and just made him disappear.

Spittincobra I just lost all respect for you. Bush did not plan or execute 911 It was the Arabs who did it. You know its people like you who give americans a bad name. Why dont you wake up? The goverment doesnt care about suppressing you, They dont want to oppress you, all they care about is whether or not you pay your taxes. This stuff about the U.S. Government or Bush or the Republicans, or the Democrats, or whoever is bunk. The fact is the U.S. government does a better job of taking care of its peple than any other government in the world. And If you dont believe me try traveling.

Originally posted by jsobecky
I say we should use covert tactics more often. For example, we should have kidnapped al Sadr and just made him disappear.

I agree here. We could send the Delta and SEAL boys in and mess stuff up nice and quiet like. I'm sure we do a lot of this, but obviously it doesn't get presented to us in the news or whatever. Very hush hush.

spittingcobra. Spitting rumors will never uncover the truth for you.....if you make your opinions on "rumors" you would believe that Elvis is alive and drinking martinis with Hitler...... Or that Bush is Hitler who had a face transplant...I am telling you is true....there is one member that can prove this with his avatar.......

Keep saying that there is no evidence for the involvement of Saddam/Iraq and terrorism and WMD when time and again evidence has been put forward, and why is it that the rest of the world, which right now is pretty much against the US, are saying that terrorists are making these attacks......yet, people like yourself keep saying "It was the government...I swear...all my proof are just rumors but I swear it was them....."

Originally posted by mwm1331
Spittincobra I just lost all respect for you.
You must Have mistaken me for someone who give a S.H.I.T.

Boy, you know nothing about me. I am 100% honest, when I say," If Bush was not in office, 9-11 wouldnt have happen. And I am not the only here that feels this way.

But to nuke everyone that makes you mad. Thats nutty.

Originally posted by Muaddib
yet, people like yourself keep saying "It was the government...I swear...all my proof are just rumors but I swear it was them....."

I hear what you are saing. But it is no diffrent that what the media gives you. It is on each person to take all the data, Put in a bag shake it up , see what you come up with.

We have gone around and around about this, maybe not me and you but me and others. and others and others. The truth is, We the people will never know the truth.

[Edited on 3-6-2004 by SpittinCobra]

Spittincobra look at your own signature line, An enemy who fears you more than hell itself does not attack you. Look to rome for the awnsers The roman empire was the longest running government in the history of the world for a reason. Eveyone else was scared shi**ess of them. The only language the Arabs understand is whats written in blood and carved on thier flesh. The only way to bring these mindless subhuman beasts under control is to put the fear of us into them

n my Sig it says to put the fear behind you, not to fear it. To see yourself as the one, To know it to be, and when that is done it will be.

Bullies like to make people live in fear. I dont want people to live in fear of me, but have the respect to know that if you step out of line...........

You say we should nuke them for 9-11, Maybe Iraq should nuke us for invading Iraq. We did invade. You made a statment about terrorist dont fear retubution, because the know the US wont get them. terrorist dont fear death! Period. Lets say that it really was saudies, Te killed them selves to kill others, that shows you thier cause is bigger than One person, or even a group of 10,000.

I have lost love, for the goverment of this country, but not the people.
I do not see myself as a good person, I do enough to make my karma right.

No they dont fear thier OWN death But what about the death of thier mother, father , chidren, friends, 3rd grade teacher etc? What if the KNEW that by attacking U.S. interests EVERYONE they have EVER known or loved would die too? Even if they could live with that could thier loved ones? Let me put it this way lets say you were a terrorist who was willing to die in a suicide bombing, Would you still detonate if it would mean the death of your entire family and all of your friends? And even if YOU would dont you think at least 1 person yu know would inform on you to escape thier fate?

MWM,
I changed my mind. You are not Morally Bankrupt. You are Morally Corrupt!