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Belgium moves to ban the burqa

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posted on Apr, 3 2010 @ 06:24 PM
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reply to post by Dark Ghost
 



Not exactly. Belgium is a relatively secular country whereas Saudi Arabia is not. One of the expectations in that country is that everybody should be identifiable when out in public. The burqa challenges this expectation because only the eyes are visible when it is worn. Nun uniforms still expose the face - the key feature used for identifying somebody in public.


Heard of eye scanners? Every problem has a solution, you just got to look for it..




posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 11:04 AM
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Originally posted by InfaRedMan

Originally posted by pujols5

I wonder why you are aginst the burqa, could it becuase you hate islam and muslims? yup i nailed the answer people. We got a muslim basher.

I wonder why the western world appear to be democratic, especially americans in this site yet they are against this burqa, that is just pathetic.


Congratulation, you are either a muslim hater, or a really ignorant person


I wonder why you don't like the way western women dress? Could it be because you are a western hater? Yup, I nailed it people. We got a western basher! Hey two can play at that game my friend!

Speaking of democracy, why do muslims move to western democracies and then whinge and whine about our way of life, our customs, our uncovered women (as you say)? That is just pathetic!

Congratulations, you are either a western hater, or a really ignorant person!

Got any other strawmen?

IRM




My god do we not only a muslim basher but now we have a comedian everybody.

The ability to control how much an individual covers their self up is insane. But the funny thing is that noone is demanding for these women(if you want to call them that) who walk around practically naked to cover themselves.

This goes around the moral ethics to allow someone to be naked, but at the same time not permitting them to cover their body.



posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 11:22 AM
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Originally posted by pujols5

The ability to control how much an individual covers their self up is insane. But the funny thing is that noone is demanding for these women(if you want to call them that) who walk around practically naked to cover themselves.


If you want to call them that?

I just thought I'd highlight your ingrained Islamic prejudice against western women and no doubt, western society in general.

Very telling Indeed!

So tell me, what do you call our women? How do you speak of them amongst your other male muslim friends? How do you speak of us in general? Are you brave enough to be honest?

Remember, no one is forcing you to live amongst us. If you disapprove, you can always go back and live in an Islamic country!

Just answer me this question. Why would you want to live amongst us in our countries. The countries based on our culture, our beliefs, our way of life, our ways of doing things?

Why isn't an Islamic country more attractive to you?

IRM

[edit on 4/4/10 by InfaRedMan]



posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 11:35 AM
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Originally posted by InfaRedMan

Originally posted by pujols5

But it's ok for a women to come in with short-shorts showing of her a**, and wearing a belly-shorts in front of the kids? sure man. that is some good observation.

I don't know it still confuses me that its wrong to cover yourself, but ok to not cover yourself and be practically naked.

Is it just me or does anyone else the irony in that?


No I don't. No irony whatsoever! What you don't seem to comprehend is it's not an Islamic state. You're not in an Islamic nation anymore mate. We aren't muslims. You are in a western country. It will never be Islamic. You better start coming to terms with how WE live because you are in OUR house. Not the other way around! Got It?

IRM



Post of the month award goes to InfaRedMan!!!!!

Pujols5, you are totally missing the point, as stated above....there is no irony in what you say......the issue is one of security and not one of taste in fashion.



posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 03:38 PM
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AMERICAN women NOT YOUR WOMEN

Originally posted by InfaRedMan

Originally posted by pujols5

The ability to control how much an individual covers their self up is insane. But the funny thing is that noone is demanding for these women(if you want to call them that) who walk around practically naked to cover themselves.


If you want to call them that?

I just thought I'd highlight your ingrained Islamic prejudice against western women and no doubt, western society in general.

Very telling Indeed!

So tell me, what do you call our women? How do you speak of them amongst your other male muslim friends? How do you speak of us in general? Are you brave enough to be honest?

Remember, no one is forcing you to live amongst us. If you disapprove, you can always go back and live in an Islamic country!

Just answer me this question. Why would you want to live amongst us in our countries. The countries based on our culture, our beliefs, our way of life, our ways of doing things?

Why isn't an Islamic country more attractive to you?

IRM

[edit on 4/4/10 by InfaRedMan]



Be brave enough, what do i have to be scared of?

As how i look at AMERICAN women not YOUR women, i think that there are some women who have self respect for themselves and their families, and think it's wrong for a woman to come out of the house practically naked. And she also has respect for herself and does not wear cloth so that other men will drool over her.

How i talk about YOUR women with my friends? i thought that was the question of the year. Woe, i was not lying when i said you are a comedian aren't you.

You think yo're smart but im smarter. All you're trying to do is trying to make me look like an aerican hater, but its you who is actually a muslim hater.


What do you mean your country?, you better be native american if you're going to call america YOUR country.



posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 03:38 PM
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AMERICAN women NOT YOUR WOMEN

Originally posted by InfaRedMan

Originally posted by pujols5

The ability to control how much an individual covers their self up is insane. But the funny thing is that noone is demanding for these women(if you want to call them that) who walk around practically naked to cover themselves.


If you want to call them that?

I just thought I'd highlight your ingrained Islamic prejudice against western women and no doubt, western society in general.

Very telling Indeed!

So tell me, what do you call our women? How do you speak of them amongst your other male muslim friends? How do you speak of us in general? Are you brave enough to be honest?

Remember, no one is forcing you to live amongst us. If you disapprove, you can always go back and live in an Islamic country!

Just answer me this question. Why would you want to live amongst us in our countries. The countries based on our culture, our beliefs, our way of life, our ways of doing things?

Why isn't an Islamic country more attractive to you?

IRM

[edit on 4/4/10 by InfaRedMan]



Be brave enough, what do i have to be scared of?

As how i look at AMERICAN women not YOUR women, i think that there are some women who have self respect for themselves and their families, and think it's wrong for a woman to come out of the house practically naked. And she also has respect for herself and does not wear cloth so that other men will drool over her.

How i talk about YOUR women with my friends? i thought that was the question of the year. Woe, i was not lying when i said you are a comedian aren't you.

You think yo're smart but im smarter. All you're trying to do is trying to make me look like an aerican hater, but its you who is actually a muslim hater.


What do you mean your country?, you better be native american if you're going to call america YOUR country.



posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 03:38 PM
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AMERICAN women NOT YOUR WOMEN

Originally posted by InfaRedMan

Originally posted by pujols5

The ability to control how much an individual covers their self up is insane. But the funny thing is that noone is demanding for these women(if you want to call them that) who walk around practically naked to cover themselves.


If you want to call them that?

I just thought I'd highlight your ingrained Islamic prejudice against western women and no doubt, western society in general.

Very telling Indeed!

So tell me, what do you call our women? How do you speak of them amongst your other male muslim friends? How do you speak of us in general? Are you brave enough to be honest?

Remember, no one is forcing you to live amongst us. If you disapprove, you can always go back and live in an Islamic country!

Just answer me this question. Why would you want to live amongst us in our countries. The countries based on our culture, our beliefs, our way of life, our ways of doing things?

Why isn't an Islamic country more attractive to you?

IRM

[edit on 4/4/10 by InfaRedMan]



Be brave enough, what do i have to be scared of?

As how i look at AMERICAN women not YOUR women, i think that there are some women who have self respect for themselves and their families, and think it's wrong for a woman to come out of the house practically naked. And she also has respect for herself and does not wear cloth so that other men will drool over her.

How i talk about YOUR women with my friends? i thought that was the question of the year. Woe, i was not lying when i said you are a comedian aren't you.

You think yo're smart but im smarter. All you're trying to do is trying to make me look like an aerican hater, but its you who is actually a muslim hater.


What do you mean your country?, you better be native american if you're going to call america YOUR country.



posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 04:07 PM
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Originally posted by skajkingdom

Originally posted by operation mindcrime
reply to post by blueorder
 


For the Muslim wife to get outside, her only option is to wear that damn burqa.



What the frell are you talking about?
Why do you people even speak without the least shred of knowledge? It is NOT anywhere in Islam that the man shall tell his wife what is she to wear, or if she is to wear niqab, burqa, or whatever.
When will you get this?

The order to COVER the body is in the Qur'an and it is directed to both men and women - if the woman wants to OBEY GOD then she will cover herself (this doesnt mean burqa, but cover "intimate" body parts and not expose other parts which may be deemed as erotic).
It is NOT ALLOWED for a man to command her wife if she will do this or not. It is FOR HER BENEFIT before God, not before man.

I am muslim, and I don't go around commanding my wife what is she to wear - she CAN READ for herself, she can decide whether she will obey God or not - if she sins, IT IS HER SIN, not mine.

In the Day of Judgement we will all be alone with OURSELVES and OUR deeds.

[edit on 3/31/2010 by skajkingdom]


Well that whole thing sounds just as dumb as covering yourself up for the "benefit of god"



posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 04:33 PM
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Yup, i agree

Everyone in the USA should follow native american law, everyone in Australia should be bound by the aboriginal ways.....etc !

But i think i should be an exception. If i want to go to...where was it again....Belgium ? Denmark ? cant remember, it doesnt matter, ....then i should be able to cover what ever i choose eg my face so the CCTV cameras cant recognise me.


This is so silly, we live in an evolving society/culture and it is so telling when people are picking their own tribes and pointing the finger at the others. What a waste of humanity and what an insult to free choice.



posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 09:52 PM
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Originally posted by pujols5

Be brave enough, what do i have to be scared of?


Revealing your true attitudes toward the western culture and it's people. But don't worry. You've already shown us your true colors.


As how i look at AMERICAN women not YOUR women,


The women of my country and the USA are both western. You're back pedaling!



i think that there are some women who have self respect for themselves and their families, and think it's wrong for a woman to come out of the house practically naked.


I guess you will have to get used to that if you wish to take advantage of our wonderful western countries won't you! It's how we choose to live in our countries.

BTW... you seem to enjoy passing judgment on us but don't like it when we pass judgment on you. I wonder why that is?


And she also has respect for herself and does not wear cloth so that other men will drool over her.


So you drool over our women? You naughty boy! They are beautiful aren't they!



How i talk about YOUR women with my friends? i thought that was the question of the year. Woe, i was not lying when i said you are a comedian aren't you.


Back pedaling again! Poor form! Pure cowardice! It's a serious question that you won't answer because it will incriminate you. In any case you have already alluded to your attitudes in an earlier post.

I have you sorted mate!


You think yo're smart but im smarter.


Say what? I never said or implied such a thing. However your insecurity and inferiority complex just raised it's head didn't it.

"Just in case anyone's wondering.. I'm smarter than InfraRedMan OK!"

LOL Man! You crack me up!


All you're trying to do is trying to make me look like an aerican hater, but its you who is actually a muslim hater.


No.. you did that yourself mate. You're own mouth betrayed you in your earlier post! By the way... that's a really poor attempt at deflection.


What do you mean your country?, you better be native american if you're going to call america YOUR country.


Straw man! Mate you have very weak arguments... and you appear to be floundering like a fish out of water. Do the smart thing and quit while you are still behind! You are only going to dig yourself a deeper hole.

IRM



posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 10:02 PM
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reply to post by pujols5
 


Why are you so afraid of the natural form?

Is it typical of Islam to fear the beautiful form of a lady?

Unlike your culture - we do not need to hide our women from the eyes of other men, nor do we demand they follow us ten steps behind, nor do we force them into marriage or disown them for thinking for themselves.

Please... If Allah is so perfect, then why would he need to hide his creations behind so much clothing?




posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 10:16 PM
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reply to post by pujols5
 


I think you should answer his question:


Just answer me this question. Why would you want to live amongst us in our countries. The countries based on our culture, our beliefs, our way of life, our ways of doing things?

Why isn't an Islamic country more attractive to you?


If you don't like our culture, our rules, our attitudes to sex and liberalism and belief... then why get upset over it?

Surely you came here to experience OUR countries and not in fact to complain about OUR way of life.

If you don't like it... then may i suggest you go and live in Saudi Arabia ?



posted on Apr, 4 2010 @ 10:29 PM
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reply to post by Wobbly Anomaly
 


In all fairness, freedom of religion isn't exactly something Europe was well known for. The Amish and their ilk had to leave because they couldn't freely practice their religion (among others). The move doesn't surprise me at all. Of course, the irony of all of this is Western Europe is becoming dependent on the Muslim population for workers as the native population hasn't been having kids at replacement levels. They won't be able to dictate to them for much longer once the workers realize the position they are in. It would appear the Muslim population learned an age old lesson: If you want the world to be more like you-Have kids

I am against this ban though. It's nonsensical and denies the free practice of religion to the women who want to wear a burqa. I think it would make more sense to just make a law stating women cannot be forced to wear the items against their will and enforce that. I just say that since everyone is screaming about oppression. I think that's just a red herring.

[edit on 4-4-2010 by antonia]



posted on Apr, 5 2010 @ 09:20 AM
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Originally posted by antonia
reply to post by Wobbly Anomaly
 


....... everyone is screaming about oppression. I think that's just a red herring.



Of course its a red herring, this is all about fear and tribal identity. These are very base animal instincts clothed in political and religious obfuscation...but.....it shows just how far we havnt evolved when so many people agree with it and fall for it.

For all our achievements as a global society, we are still pretty backward when it comes to acting together in global, human interests.



posted on Apr, 5 2010 @ 10:53 AM
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Originally posted by antonia
reply to post by antonia
 


Of course, the irony of all of this is Western Europe is becoming dependent on the Muslim population for workers as the native population hasn't been having kids at replacement levels. They won't be able to dictate to them for much longer once the workers realize the position they are in. It would appear the Muslim population learned an age old lesson: If you want the world to be more like you-Have kids



Are you from Western Europe?
Because over here, in W-Europe, there are no jobs left, not for the native and not for the Muslim population.
It's as bad here as anywhere else on the planet right now: companies are going bankrupt, factories are being closed, hundreds of people loose their job every day, the young, the old and the muslims! The costs for wellfare, replacement incomes and pensions are becoming too high (yes, the Moslims get wellfare here as well, who would've thought?)
And because of that they just had two more laws implemented: 1st is that everyone has to work longer before being able to retire. 2nd is that they are putting restrictions and harder conditions on getting the Belgian nationality.

If there is one thing that the Muslim population in Belgium is learning it's:
1- they can't wear the burqa, and
2- there are NO jobs left!
3- if there is a job available, any job, the Belgian unemployed are happy to take it!

get your facts straight before posting something, Belgium is not a dictatorship!





[edit on 5/4/2010 by GypsK]



posted on Apr, 5 2010 @ 11:03 AM
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You want me to tell you WHO said it.

Yeah. No.

Because I kind of like her. And you guys do nasty things to women who say or do things you don't like.

So no.

To make you feel worse. I've also helped hide teenage girls from being sent back to the "old country" to be married off to old men on a "family vacation."

We see you. We know you. We're just waiting for our politicians to smarten the hell up and catch up.

You don't like the idea of banning a burqua? Women here wear head gear all the time and I don't care. Burqua is an extreme form of fetish wear inappropriate to a secular equality based society.

If you don't like banning the burqua, you REALLY won't like that I want and expect that my government start going after parents who are sending girls out of country to be married under age. I want them charged, and pursued. I want our girls back, and anybody who did it comes back into my country they are to be charged with human trafficking and sexual abuse crimes.

Believe it buddy.



Originally posted by pujols5

Originally posted by Aeons

Originally posted by pujols5
reply to post by Aeons
 


Na, but i figured to let you know that you are an ignorant person speaking out of your a**. See ya later miss,


Finally figured out I'm female eh? Good for you.

Which raises the possibility that a woman actually talked to me about this - because she would be more likely to talk to a woman about it than a man.

So sad - my ass is smarter than you.



Not only are you funny, but now i know you are a teenage drama queen.

Anyways, you are still lying from your behind "I know a woman who said this?" do you want me to say it for you very clear? "YOU ARE SPEAKING FROM YOUR A**, YOU ARE A LIAR" you are using one of the oldest excuses in the book. Again, stop while you're down.


[edit on 2010/4/5 by Aeons]



posted on Apr, 5 2010 @ 03:16 PM
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Originally posted by GypsK
Are you from Western Europe?
Because over here, in W-Europe, there are no jobs left, not for the native and not for the Muslim population.
It's as bad here as anywhere else on the planet right now: companies are going bankrupt, factories are being closed, hundreds of people loose their job every day, the young, the old and the muslims! The costs for wellfare, replacement incomes and pensions are becoming too high (yes, the Moslims get wellfare here as well, who would've thought?)
And because of that they just had two more laws implemented: 1st is that everyone has to work longer before being able to retire. 2nd is that they are putting restrictions and harder conditions on getting the Belgian nationality.

If there is one thing that the Muslim population in Belgium is learning it's:
1- they can't wear the burqa, and
2- there are NO jobs left!
3- if there is a job available, any job, the Belgian unemployed are happy to take it!

get your facts straight before posting something, Belgium is not a dictatorship!


Ehmmm, you scare me a little bit there GypsK (no offense
) but now it seems like you are assuming that every Muslim living in Belgium is an illegal immigrant. Over here in Holland we have a part of our population being of the Muslim faith but Dutch citizens non the less....

I think it's kinda sh*tty to take somebody in, make 'm join the group, integrate and as soon as the road gets a little rough, to just turn and put all of these people into one group again and exclude them. You just can't do that...

Back on topic...

Maybe the topic shifted a little bit but what i am really trying to say is, is Belgium helping the situation along by putting a ban on the burqa??

Forget the point about whether or not you agree on wearing a burqa or even seeing on in the street but look at it from a governments point of view.

What possible effect are they trying to create by outlawing a piece of clothing worn by a group (notice I said A group and not every Muslima) who are suffering the most under these strict Islamic laws??

How about a law that makes sure every snot-nose punk (be it Christian or Muslim or whatever..) is either in school or in some drill camp (I am thinking military draft or something like that), that would save a lot of aggravation in the general society...

Peace

PS: IRM, you rock...



posted on Apr, 5 2010 @ 04:23 PM
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reply to post by operation mindcrime
 


no offence taken

I was just going further in the tone of the post I was replying to (see quoted text) where the person seemed to think that we still live in the middle ages and was making it sound like we are treating the Muslim society as some sort of slaves under a dictatorship. Yes, it's true that the very first immigrants came here to do the work no one else wanted to do, but that was a long time ago and times have changed.

Most of the people we are talking about here may be Islamic, but they also have the belgian nationality, most of them are born here. Which means they have to abide by our laws no matter what those are... and so do the rest of us. No exeptions.
Do you think I can go work in a bank or a school with a huge pentagram around my neck? (let's say I'm Wiccan, the pentagram is my religious symbol and I want it with me for protection). To answer my own question: no I can't.
To be honest, I haven't given the whole burqa issue a lot of thought besides that one post I made about religious and political symbols in public places.

I live in Belgium, the only place I've seen so far where a big fuzz is made about the burqa... is on ATS. It's been on our news one day, there has been one demonstration... that's it.

Just to make myself clear: I'm not a racist, I have nothing against people. But I deeply hate organized religion (all of them) and every stupid thing that comes with that.



posted on Apr, 5 2010 @ 10:18 PM
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Originally posted by GypsK
reply to post by operation mindcrime
 




Just to make myself clear: I'm not a racist, I have nothing against people. But I deeply hate organized religion (all of them) and every stupid thing that comes with that.



And? Don't proclaim it's under the guise of ending some form of oppression. When one makes a law they do oppress others as a consequence of making that law. You can either accept that consequence as ok because it's for a greater good or you can reject it. As a person, I find it foolish to try to bring others into my way of being. I honestly think both sides of this argument are foolish in many ways. No one should be forced into anything. This law would force those who want to wear the burqa to not do so. In your mind that's ok because you dislike all religion. I am not a Muslim, but I do not feel I have the right to dictate anything to them anymore than they have the right to dictate anything to me.

As for the demographic issue, I see it ruffles your feathers but, it's only the truth. It's why they were brought in to begin with. They will leave when it is of no further benefit to stay.

As for Belgium not being a dictatorship, I don't remember saying anything about it being one. I simply stated "Free Religion" is not something Europe as a whole has valued. I have lived in Europe so spare me the vitriol. If you think dictating what someone can't wear is somehow different than dictating what they should wear, well, I don't think we can continue this conversation in any sort of productive fashion.



Do you think I can go work in a bank or a school with a huge pentagram around my neck? (let's say I'm Wiccan, the pentagram is my religious symbol and I want it with me for protection). To answer my own question: no I can't.


And why ever not? Firstly, the pentacle is the Wiccian symbol not the pentagram. The pentacle features one point up representing spirit. The pentagram has two pointing up, this is the "satanist" symbol. It's not like you would be hurting someone by doing it. It causes no harm to anyone.


[edit on 5-4-2010 by antonia]



posted on Apr, 6 2010 @ 05:50 AM
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Originally posted by mr-lizard
reply to post by pujols5
 


Why are you so afraid of the natural form?

Is it typical of Islam to fear the beautiful form of a lady?

Unlike your culture - we do not need to hide our women from the eyes of other men, nor do we demand they follow us ten steps behind, nor do we force them into marriage or disown them for thinking for themselves.

Please... If Allah is so perfect, then why would he need to hide his creations behind so much clothing?



The beautiful form of a lady? [SNIP]

The women who is naked is pretty? [SNIP]

Thats why america has the highest rate of divorces, rape, and abortion. YA THATS RIGHT, NOT THESE COUNTRIES WHO YOU SAY ARE BAD BUT AMERICA WHICH YOU THINK IS YOUR OWN COUNTRY HAS THE HIGHEST RATE OF DIVORCES, RAPE, AND ABORTION.

Every three minutes a women is raped in the u.s, yes every three damn minutes. Thats is just pathetic, which women are really being oppressed? give me a break and go back to school

And would you so called "Americans" stop saying this is your country.

The last time i checked your european granddaddies raped, tortured, and killed all the native americans and took this country by force.

So get your facts straight, your not american, your somewhere from europe, go back and check your family history, because this mate IS NOT YOUR COUNTRY.

Im not even going to bother commenting on the hijab, the ten steps? dude seriously what the hell, and the marriage? you are clueless about islam.


Please give me your email so i can debate with you about islam. You are obviously brainwashed by the "AMERICAN" media. If you accept then send me your email and ill get back to you. But i know you wont. why? because you're american. Later mate.


[edit on 6-4-2010 by pujols5]

 


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[edit on 7-4-2010 by TheBorg]



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