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posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 08:43 AM
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reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984
 


We are not talking about fixing a problem. We are talking about YOU STEALING MY PROPERTY. Stay on track. Do you even understand what laws are? Do you know what property is? Obviously you do not.
You want to talk about logic but you make no sense. People do not spend a dime when they go to music stores and listen to a cd before they buy it. People spend nothing when they go to amazon and listen to music to see what they want to buy. You are making every excuse you can so you can be a THIEF.
Here is some research for you plus some college kids who are not afraid to tell the truth. They steal and they admit it is stealing.
www.walletpop.com...

By the way How long have you been in the music business?




posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 09:16 AM
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Originally posted by rick1
reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984
 


We are not talking about fixing a problem. We are talking about YOU STEALING MY PROPERTY. Stay on track.


Hold your horses, don't go accusing me of anything thank you, i have stolen nothing of yours. Be very careful what you type next. Oh and i am staying on track i am looking at the issue from every angle and trying to fix the problem, you are not doing the same.


Originally posted by rick1
Do you even understand what laws are? Do you know what property is? Obviously you do not.


I know whats laws are but you seem unable to comprehend a very clear fact. People abuse copyright law because they can't afford to purchase all of the music they wish to listen to, they also don't want to buy something and then find out it's rubbish. If we could address both of those problems then they wouldn't be breaking the law.

The fact you can't see this and just keep saying "oh but it's illegal" says a great deal about the position you are arguing from.


Originally posted by rick1
You want to talk about logic but you make no sense.


Maybe to you, but that is because you are looking at only the law. You are saying something is illegal and people are breaking that law, therefore case closed. You fail to look beyond that and address why people are breaking the law. Basically you are trying to frame the discussion within your own terms and refuse to debate the issue in full. This is a common tactic for someone who cannot argue a good case.


Originally posted by rick1
People do not spend a dime when they go to music stores and listen to a cd before they buy it. People spend nothing when they go to amazon and listen to music to see what they want to buy. You are making every excuse you can so you can be a THIEF.


I have at no point admitted to downloading anything illegally and i would inform you that you're committing libel, for someone so much for upholding law you seem happy to break it. Be exceedingly careful with what you say next.

I am making no excuses for people who steal, i am pointing out firstly the hypocrisy of providing music for free (like on amazon or stores as you put it) and then people being prosecuted for getting free music. You absolutely refuse to explain why one is acceptable and the other is not.

Secondly i am pointing out that this law breaking would be drastically reduced if the industry moved with the times. Again i bring up legal services like spotify. 1- quid a month and you can listen to all the legal music you like and get it anywhere in the world without having to carry it with you! How great is that.


Originally posted by rick1
Here is some research for you plus some college kids who are not afraid to tell the truth. They steal and they admit it is stealing.
www.walletpop.com...

By the way How long have you been in the music business?


I'm not in the music business, why exactly does that matter? I can still argue the case with evidence and i know several bands, all of whom give away their music and currently do gigs to earn money.

As for the study you linked, well it kind of proves you utterly wrong even though you think it proves you right, from YOUR article


The change has forced artists to find creative ways to get their albums to sell. So in 2007, the UK alternative rock band Radiohead, self-released its album "In Rainbows," allowing fans to download the album and pay as much (or as little) as they wanted. The experiment was an unparalleled success, yet the music industry proper has been slow -- even stubborn -- to conduct such experiments on its own.


Also your article explains why people pirate


The RIAA acknowledges that illegally downloading programs and websites will always be around and though they are trying to control it with fear, it seems like a war they cannot win. Apple's iTunes Store sells songs for about .99 cents a pop. Currently, in my iTunes player I have 4,050 songs which means I would have had to spent $4,009.50 for my music library, which to me seems a ridiculously high price for anyone to pay for music.

See full article from WalletPop: srph.it...


Basically your article has made my case for me lol. If the prices drop then more people will buy tracks and the profits of record companies will either increase or stay steady while piracy drops.



posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 09:25 AM
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I use "file sharing" because those thieving bastards in the entertainment industry, all of them, including the artists in some cases (Lars Ulrich anyone ?), stole my money for years and years...

Regardless of whether two wrongs make a right or not (I could care less in any event) I will continue to "steal" their creations until such time as I consider us "even"...

That is, until the amount of their content I "steal" equals the amount of money they stole from me when I used to pay for content...When this occurs, I'll look at what they're charging, and if the cost is reasonable I'll happily pay for what they make...

If what they charge is as preposterous as it still is today, I will continue to "steal" their content until such time as they get the message...

Its all very simple really...Stop overcharging for recorded entertainment...



posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 02:43 PM
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reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984
 

Don't get your panties in a bunch I am talking figuratively when I say you.
So if people can't afford cars you are promoting they Steal them right.
In fact whatever someone can't afford according to that philosophy,WTH,just steal it right.
Or if I think Joe down the street is selling his bicycles for to much money It's ok to steal it.
You see we can't move on and try to fix a system with a segment of the population who now believes they are justified in stealing. That is what we are complaining the record companies have been doing. Now we're doing it. Thieves cannot cut corruption. They are only going to add to it.



posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 02:44 PM
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reply to post by Retrovertigo
 

Tell me how they stole your money.



posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 02:48 PM
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reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984
 

PS
You claim that my article makes your case is because it seems you were only willing to post one paragraph of the article. You didn't post the part about how much money the artists and record companies lost. It is easy to make your case with selective editing.



posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 04:01 PM
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Originally posted by rick1
Don't get your panties in a bunch I am talking figuratively when I say you.
So if people can't afford cars you are promoting they Steal them right.
In fact whatever someone can't afford according to that philosophy,WTH,just steal it right.


Firstly saying "you" when directly replying to someone is not talking figuratively and i do not promote stealing. If someone downloads something to sample what it sounds like and they enjoy it, then they should go out and buy a copy. Actually using your car simile this is like taking it for a test drive
I have no issue with someone previewing something via downloads. You are putting words into my mouth i'm afraid.


Originally posted by rick1
Or if I think Joe down the street is selling his bicycles for to much money It's ok to steal it.


Nope i haven't said that, i simply told you why people are stealing. Price is set by the seller but value is set by the buyer. If buyers think the value is not worth it then they will not buy. Providing music online costs a massive amoount less than making a physical object like a cd and so the prices should drop accordingly. However this isn't being done. If the indistries dropped the prices you would see many of the pirates move to legal downloads.

So would you prefer the prices remain high and the pirates continue enmasse, or would you prefer the prices are slashed in half and the pirates start downloading legally? That is the choice that artists and companies have to make. If you don't like that then you're in the wrong business.


Originally posted by rick1
You see we can't move on and try to fix a system with a segment of the population who now believes they are justified in stealing. That is what we are complaining the record companies have been doing. Now we're doing it. Thieves cannot cut corruption. They are only going to add to it.


It's odd don't you think how many of these thieves are middle class, hard working and have no criminal records. Why would they steal, this is an important question and gets to the heart of the matter. The simple truth is they are disgusted with the prices and many people are rather annoyed with the enforced DRM.

You can shout and scream and cry but if you stop and use the systems available then you could help change the industry while simultaneously making more money and having more people hear your music!



Originally posted by rick1
PS
You claim that my article makes your case is because it seems you were only willing to post one paragraph of the article. You didn't post the part about how much money the artists and record companies lost. It is easy to make your case with selective editing.


I didn't quote it because the paragraph following was in direct competition with it. You see they claim they are losing tons of money (something i would question) because of illegal downloads and yet people are saying quite clearly that they don't have the money to obtain the songs legally, because we're talking thousands of pounds to get all of a persons favorite songs.

If the industry dropped the price then so many of these pirates would start downloading legally, making the industry more money. Also many people download songs they already own a copy of on CD because they want an MP3, this is illegal but are you honestly saying someone has to pay multiple times for the same thing?

What i am proposing, as many others are is a way to please both the music industry and the music lovers. Drop the online price of music and more people will buy it. This means you have less piracy, more income (as more people are buying stuff) and less crime all in one. Why are you so against all of this?

[edit on 2-4-2010 by ImaginaryReality1984]



posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 04:06 PM
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reply to post by rick1
 


Oh and it should be noted that while cd sales have plummetted, online sales have drastically increased. The reason is simply new technology. Traditional record companies are having a bit of trouble because their model of business is to old. I think, just possibly we are heading towards a model where artists are less in need of record companies. An artist can distribute their stuff in a moment online and at hardly any cost.

Personally i hope the record companies fall, they pump out rubbish music, bubblegum nonsense. They carefully sculpt a popstar getting the right look and the right marketing, but music seems to be an afterthought.

We may very well be seeing a time where not only does music become a more diverse thing and artists both small and large are on an equal playing field, but the artists and songwriters will receive more of the money paid for their works.



posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 04:25 PM
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Originally posted by Solomons
reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984
 


Usenet is the best, could they track people using newsgroups as much as torrents,rapidshare etc? Using SSL i imagine they couldn't, not easily anyway...newsgroups are very cheap too boot, $25 for 180gb is a good deal.


Yes and yes. I love Usenet, been a long time user. Torrents are all the rage given their simplicity while Usenet requires a bit more work (not really but speaking in terms of the average user). It is only a question of time before it is targeted and it can be detected SSL or not. If ACTA has any traction it may simply force pirates to relocate to countries that don't espouse those beliefs or laws.

brill



posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 04:34 PM
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Originally posted by brill
Yes and yes. I love Usenet, been a long time user. Torrents are all the rage given their simplicity while Usenet requires a bit more work (not really but speaking in terms of the average user). It is only a question of time before it is targeted and it can be detected SSL or not. If ACTA has any traction it may simply force pirates to relocate to countries that don't espouse those beliefs or laws.

brill


ISP's can easily detect usenet, or more specifically they can see high volumes of SSL encrypted traffic coming down the line. The only way of breaking 256 bit SSL encryption in any kind of respectable time frame is using a Janus attack. However usenet groups (good ones) take measures against this.

The best way of countering it is to use an encrypted VPN with a shared key and a respected owner. People running well maintained VPN's are well aware of the attacks that can be used (like Janus) and take very clear measures against it. Indeed many people who run encrypted VPN services are hackers and so are very up to date with counter techniques. The other advantage of an encrypted VPN is that your ISP doesn't know what kind of traffic you are sending/receiving. ISP's now use traffic shaping, so when they detect torrent traffic, or even gaming traffic, they throttle it.

Of course people don't understand that usenet and bittorrent can be used to share perfectly legal content and the use of encryption protects sensitive data. If a girlfriend sends a raunchy photo or video to me i wouldn't much like someone taking a peek at it



posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 04:48 PM
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Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
The best way of countering it is to use an encrypted VPN with a shared key and a respected owner. People running well maintained VPN's are well aware of the attacks that can be used (like Janus) and take very clear measures against it. Indeed many people who run encrypted VPN services are hackers and so are very up to date with counter techniques. The other advantage of an encrypted VPN is that your ISP doesn't know what kind of traffic you are sending/receiving. ISP's now use traffic shaping, so when they detect torrent traffic, or even gaming traffic, they throttle it.


You said it yourself. Even with VPN services they can monitor data transfer rates. Inevitably end user agreements will add clauses pertaining to quote usage many already do and they enforce this. There will always be a way to get what you want I won't dispute that but in the end you may end up paying the same if not more had you simply gone the legit route. Yes torrent/newsgroups are loaded with legit content very true.

I don't think the emphasis will be on hacking or breaking encryption, why bother when you can avoid that step with fake certificate authority certs. Also you mentioned rate shaping or throttling and that is another tactic. Once ISP's see high traffic levels they will simply shape it to levels that prove aggravating regardless of encryption techniques.

brill



posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 05:13 PM
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Originally posted by brill
You said it yourself. Even with VPN services they can monitor data transfer rates. Inevitably end user agreements will add clauses pertaining to quote usage many already do and they enforce this. There will always be a way to get what you want I won't dispute that but in the end you may end up paying the same if not more had you simply gone the legit route. Yes torrent/newsgroups are loaded with legit content very true.


They can monitor traffic but that wouldn't result in legal action as it is not proof of illegal downloading. I share HD video with my friends, these are copywrite free videos we record ourselves before little ricky starts calling mea theif again -.-

Anyway we share regularly and i received a rather mean letter from my ISP about the amount of bandwidth i was using. It asked me to move my downloading outside of the peak period. I have now done so, hopefully i won't get anymore letters.


Originally posted by brill
I don't think the emphasis will be on hacking or breaking encryption, why bother when you can avoid that step with fake certificate authority certs. Also you mentioned rate shaping or throttling and that is another tactic. Once ISP's see high traffic levels they will simply shape it to levels that prove aggravating regardless of encryption techniques.

brill


Currently ISP's only seem to shape traffic based on one reason, the type of traffic. Torrent traffic, gaming traffic and some other stuff will be stopped dead. If the main internet routers are upgraded to the new Cisco kind i already linked then they shoudln't need to take this further but i think there is an agenda working to thwart internet freedoms. The ability to expose corruption and show it to a worldwide audience in moments is a very dangerous thing.

VPN encryption works with pre-shared or dynamic keys. There is currently no way to break a well maintained VPN (at least not available to ISP's) and i know that for a fact as i know the guys who work maintaining their systems, and i don't mean the monkeys who come around to repair your service either.

[edit on 2-4-2010 by ImaginaryReality1984]



posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 05:14 PM
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people who dont care and accept this HAVE YOU NO SHAME
internet is the ONLY place left when you have any rghts left,and the only place you can experience FREEDOM.
sadly governments and organizations use the internet to GATHER DATE about you,and your family. they MANIPULATE YOU. the LIE to you.
you pay overpriced prizes for low quality movies,music,games and software.
you pay overprices prizes for UNDERPOWERED "new" hardware that was allready invented and used in the military 10 years ago.
they put ads on internet. they allow scams and manipulations to continue,but they will do everything to brainwash you and control you. to get your money,and to have total control and power.



posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 06:08 PM
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Governments have a record of strangling with regulation every form of communication and transportation they can.

Shortly after the radio emerged, the FCC formed killing citizens ability to use radio.
The internet is an extremely recent phenomena, only 15 years in main stream,
the government hasn't had a chance to strangle it,
though they've already got their hands around it's root nodes.

Let us focus on a solution.

We with you can create an alternative internet.
Or even use amprnet and hinternet.
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

It requires a license and has regulations due to FCC.
Though it is a viable solution in case the backbones get broken.

Meanwhile the backbone internet is still working can use Freenet,
an encrypted distributed data store.
freenetproject.org...

Allowing for a freer Internet,
can upload your websites and let the network remember them,
as long as people like to load it and use it.

We should also develop alternatives to the government,
forming self-reliant communities, neo tribalism
www.youtube.com...
having herbivorous producers for supplies,
and carnivorous militia for protection.

The government hierarchy is bulky and slow.
Many layers before decisions can occur,
with many wasted resources and lives.

A neo-tribalism distributed system where each community node
can make quick decisions for their own thrival,
be superior in speed and efficiency.

Tea Party an example of leaderless organization alternative.
Atom nodes can self-replicate by splitting before reaching uneffective dunbar numbers.
Atom nodes can interconnect like molecules and cells,
a new form of post-national community.

We with you can do it.
Become self-reliant,
form an abundance (post-scarcity) community,
replicate.
openfarmtech.org...


[edit on 2-4-2010 by lowki]

Made this into a seperate thread www.abovetopsecret.com...
As I've been thinking of the concepts for a while,
and it's somewhat beyond the initial topic of this thread.
Though inspired by thy interest.

Love harmony.
*hugs*

[edit on 2-4-2010 by lowki]



posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 06:15 PM
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reply to post by lowki
 


A very well known timeline but i am very glad you have bought it into this thread. Freedom of communication and the ability to reach many people will always be the enemy of corruption, and that scares many people in government. Democracy and republics ahve always been rife with corruption, it is the price we pay for more freedoms. The only way to comabt that is firstly with open communication systems and secondly by forcing government to release all spending figures.

Sadly no one has yet convinced a government to release a countries full expenditure and that is because journalists would rip through it and scrutinise every penny. The rich cannot afford that level of openess. While of course certain things like the military and intelligence services cannot be a aprt of that, you would think every other service could be.

Why should the citizen be kept in the dark as to how their taxes are spent? Simply giving up broad figures is abusable and now with the internet it would take moments for managers of hospitals to upload records or councils to make available the receipts they have.

It's an obvious truth and yet it is not called for it to be made law.



posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 06:41 PM
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as you said at the start.
"I have seen few threads already discussing the issue about ACTA but found surprising that hardly any people care. This thread lists all reasons why YOU a normal internet user should care and take a step against it."
it is so true. they dont care?
you will lose sites like ATS. you will lose political awareness. the internet is the only true free press that you can get told what is really going on. ok you get a ton of b’s to.
they hold the flag up high. and you just look up.
not seeing what is hapening in frount of you?



posted on Apr, 2 2010 @ 06:50 PM
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Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
reply to post by lowki
 


The only way to combat that is firstly with open communication systems and secondly by forcing government to release all spending figures.


If a big predator told you what it did with all it's energy.
How would that benefit with your situation?

Perhaps in a plan to manipulate it?
Well you generally know it eats things,
might make some wide paths for it's large self to move around.

It's time for us to regain our skins and bones.
To stand apart as self-guided entities and communities.
With a larger diversity of community-animals and predators.

Currently the government-predators have become quite large.

American Secret Services the most advanced of all,
already use distributed compartmentalized governance.

Acting as entities free of law or obligation.




Why should the citizen be kept in the dark as to how their taxes are spent?


Government be farmer, you we be grass.

or as Christian government, shepherd and sheep, using dogs to herd and wolves to attack nearby shepherds.

We with you have the option to create sovereign self-reliant communities.
Rocks can be melted for minerals, iron, aluminium, silicon, oxygen.
Soil and peat can give sources of carbohydrates and plastics.


Abundance is ours,
with fab labs and self-replicating communities.
Thrive yourself,
Community arises.


[edit on 2-4-2010 by lowki]



posted on Apr, 3 2010 @ 05:07 AM
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im glad to see this thread alive,thats all i can say.
the people need to know... how are the big evil companyes and agencyes screwing theyr every right. the gov had theyr hands on the internet before a long time,its just that with so many hackers around,its not so easy for them to control us. and with situacions like "piratebay being in sweden" they cant really do anything couse the country has different rules about piracy. that really makes me laught^^
and still the evil dogs continue to try to bring down the site.
i have two words for them. suuuck iiiit



posted on Apr, 3 2010 @ 06:43 AM
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reply to post by hotbakedtater
 


My God....

How could you say that?

The Internet is the wild, wild west.

It's mans last island of freedom. You can learn and do anything with the Internet.

Imagine the world with out Wikipedia, with out YouTube, without Adobe After effects free trial download.....or the file to make the trial last forever...


We can learn an do anything that would normally cost us hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loans.

The net is freedom, it's the good, the bad and the ugly of the world of information for crying out loud!

And you don't care because you can go back to getting stoned on your couch?

People like you really exist?

My God, the humanity, the horror!



posted on Apr, 3 2010 @ 08:42 AM
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reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984
 


I have no idea where you got your online distribution figures but they are way off.



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