Strange Rock Carving

Originally posted by hoghead cheese

It must have been done fairly recently, because you don't see any algae in the rock cut, but you see it on the parts that aren't cut on the rock.

There IS algae, and moss too, inside the carved channels. It's hard to tell in the pictures, because there is a thin layer of mud or silt in the channels, they are wet, and I reduced the size (and so the resolution) of the picture to get it to fit on an ATS page.

I hope to rectify this limitation during tomorrow's outing, by taking closeup pictures of the channels, in a hopefully dry rock.

In the full resolution copy of this picture, you can make out algae in the channels vaguely, as a greenish stain on the walls of it.

Originally posted by Blue Shift

P.S. -- I could have also been a map of the local river area, possibly pointing out the good fishing holes or delineating territories. The two squarish features on the right and left sides of the circle could have been used to indicate sun up, sun down. Or north and south. Maybe a map.

[edit on 30-3-2010 by Blue Shift]

If one assumes it is a map, and the "branches" represent drainage channels of the entire hollow, then the squares are appropriately placed as east and west markers.

Originally posted by gazerstar
Is it dry right now? I'm curious if any other images might show up if you did an etching over it with a piece of paper and a pencil. I'm also curious about what it would look like at night if you shined a fluorscent light on it. Have you tried either of those things?

[edit on 30-3-2010 by gazerstar]

No, I haven't. When I went up there, it was raining, not conducive to make a rubbing,and I don't have a fluorescent light.

Originally posted by hoghead cheese

Originally posted by nenothtu
I have to admit, I'm perplexed.

It must have been done fairly recently, because you don't see any algae in the rock cut, but you see it on the parts that aren't cut on the rock.

The sparce algae or lichen patches are actually rather consistant on the entire surface of the rock.

Originally posted by MsAmen
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Good eye. Good pic. Good point! However, a rocks patina (as is the patina of any aged object) is comprised of elements within the rock (or object) that are reactive to consistent exposure of contiguous elements. For instance if you were to partially bury a slab of Phyllite, then return years later to retrieve the slab, you would find a demarcation of the patina indicating the interment depth.
Phyllite is an igneous rock of Appalachia similar in appearance to the posted pic. Iron is an element commonly found within Phyllite. The concentration of iron and subsequent oxidization will affect its coloring (blue, black, red) and capability to reflect light. Compressed chlorite crystals create drift formations and unique contours. These contours support the adherence of moss or fungi. Notice the distinctive difference between the surface area of the carving and the surrounding rock. The surface area is relatively free of debris by comparison suggesting a recent adjustment of the contiguous elements. This adjustment has also affected the oxidization of the elements within the rock and subsequently the rocks pigmentation. It’s obvious the rock has been “cleaned “to showcase the carving. Pigmentation suggests this isn’t the first time. This in no way detracts from the significance of your discovery.

How likely do you think it is that this "cleaning" could have been effected by repeated washings via the stream during spring deluges?

Here is a closer view, a crop of the left hand side of the circle, including the rectangular feature, from the oblique view from downstream which I posted earlier:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b141bc00413e.jpg[/atsimg]

You can see, inside the carved channels, a greenish tinge from algae growing in the channel, just as you mentioned. Moss and lichens are also present, but not in this cropped view.

If you right click and save this crop to your hard drive, you can do a contrast enhancement that will bring other details to the fore. For example, it will make the silt deposit in the channel more obvious.

I've purposely not done any enhancements beyond the crop to this picture, so that anyone who wants to enhance it can start from zero.

Originally posted by Blue Shift
I'd still like to know if it aligns north-south/east-west in any way. Maybe at a Solstice?

I didn't bring a compass with me on this trip, but I did bring a GPS. I'll try to get a rough orientation for it tomorrow, adjusted to true north in degrees. That will better show any correspondence to sunrise and sunset locations than a magnetic azimuth will.

I'm of the opinion that if it was oriented on solar positions, though, it would more likely have been placed on a ridge than down in a hollow, where the sun is already pretty high in the day before it shines on it.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by maybereal11
Just an FYI -- there are those making a case for Celts in West Virginia pre-columbus.

I'm reasonably convinced it's not Ogham, but I wouldn't be willing to rule out other Celtic symbolism.

That doesn't necessarily imply great antiquity in and of itself, though.

Yes its not ogham but there were a lot of celtic types that moved around in those areas early 1700 and on. One can find thier names in old documents and early census records as they were in the original before many were anglicized. This could be something along the lines of a "holler"
claim marker. Is it easy to see for anyone gettting off the water way and heading up in there?

Someone upthread mentioned they'd seen this before in a capstone indicating an old grave site. Here in SC, I've seen crude "arrows" carved in a few rocks that indicated the direction in which several large rock piles were arranged. This was along the treeline in the back pasture of my parents' farm. I was always told that the rock piles were graves. Not too far away there's actually remains of a stone wall or border and also an old wagon trail with deep ruts that are still visible, so I assume the graves were relatively recent, meaning placed there within the last 200 years or so.

This carving reminds me of those carved arrows, although the arrows I've seen were not as carefully carved and there was no circle around them. I really wonder if there aren't some undiscovered grave sites nearby this carving.

Originally posted by GuyverUnit I
S+F!!!

Are you able to go back to the site often?

Next time you go there bring a metal detector if possible.

I'm up here visiting and scouting around for some locations. This is the first time I've been back in over 10 years, so I don't get back here very often, although I hope to be able to get back more frequently in the future.

At the moment, I don't have access to a metal detector, but due to the rocky nature of the terrain in that hollow, the most likely metal artifacts I'd find would be old shell casings, rather than any sort of buried artifacts or "treasure".

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by GuyverUnit I
S+F!!!

Are you able to go back to the site often?

Next time you go there bring a metal detector if possible.

I'm up here visiting and scouting around for some locations. This is the first time I've been back in over 10 years, so I don't get back here very often, although I hope to be able to get back more frequently in the future.

At the moment, I don't have access to a metal detector, but due to the rocky nature of the terrain in that hollow, the most likely metal artifacts I'd find would be old shell casings, rather than any sort of buried artifacts or "treasure".

I spend large amounts of my time doing this kind of canvassing.
I have a artifact and fossil collection to beat the band.
I would not even venture a guess besides a grave stone for what you show. Dig it out or be real about it being bedrock or a huge bolder.
You do not present enough information to make any kind of determination.
Stop posting and dig. I want to see the back of the object. If you please.

reply to post by nenothtu


I'm now wondering, why does it need to be a symbol at all? Could it have had a function do you suppose. Oddly enough a Whiskey Barrel is the right dimensions on the bottom that the outer rim would seat into that nicely. The little square cutout is just right for the tap or cork. That pattern of the "tree" is often seen in the bottom of old trays to drain liquids.

Do you suppose that it might have been a place in the stream to keep a barrel of water or other beverage cold? The bottom of a traditional Whiskey Barrel is just the right size to fit?

Another thought to muddy up the water.

Originally posted by okbmd
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Very interesting find nenothtu . Anything I say at all would be pure speculation, but here goes...

The first thing that struck me was how the 'ring' seems to resemble some sort of clasp. On the right side of the ring I see what appears to be a 'hinge' . On the left side of the ring, there would appear to me to be a locking 'clasp' . This also fits in with what I see as the top half of the ring being slightly smaller in width than the lower half, allowing for a 'fit' into the hinge and lock.

You indicate that this is located in calhoun or roane county., being hard to tell where the county line is while you are in the woods.

So, assuming that it is at least somewhat close to the county line, that is where I focussed my attention on Google maps.

You indicate that the 'stem' is oriented to the east-northeast. Working with all of this, I find a town named Five Forks,W.VA., although somewhat distant from this county line.

Assuming that the 'tree' within the ring might represent 'forks' instead, was what led me in this direction.

The last major battle of the Civil War was fought at Five Forks on April 1, 1865.

Five Forks is to the 'northeast' of any point on the Calhoun/Roane county line.

The 'branches' of the tree, if viewed as forks instead, would show five forks. Coming into Five Forks from the north, the 'forks' show somewhat of a resemblance to the 'forks' inside the ring.

Could this have been some sort of a coded message left by Confederate troops, to those bringing up the rear, that they were headed to Five Forks ? Could it also indicate that Five Forks had been 'locked-in' or surrounded ?

Again, I am just guessing. May be something to chew on anyway.

Five Forks is several miles away, but it was a good try. There was a good bit of unrest here during the civil war, but mostly it was "militia", home guards, and irregulars ("guerrillas") trying to knock each other off in secret. It would have taken a fair bit of time to carve out, unlikely to have been done by a military unit in enemy territory, and on the move, but not beyond possibility.

Actually, to my eye, it does bear a vague resemblance to the branches of the hollow which is parent to this little hollow. The Circle stumps me, though, and the idea of a combative encirclement of some one or some thing is not beyond the pale.

Originally posted by MystikMushroom

Let me ask you -- is this location at or near a joining of two or more streams/rivers?

In terms of metaphysics, where two or more rivers/streams meet is a powerful place of energy.

Yes. It's not far at all, maybe 600 meters, maybe a little less, from a major fork of a river, with a truly awesome place for cornfields and such, after the danger of spring flooding is over. My great great grand dad used to raise miles of corn there.

The carving *might* be really old (over 100 years +) and actually show how the drainages of the area once were.

It's actually fairly close to the way the drainages run now, in the main hollow, but that could just be coincidental. Or not.

So many teenagers want to so badly believe they are werwolves or vampires now after those movies...how hard by foot is the access?

Not too hard, if you don't mind walking, and have pretty good balance.

If we had some idea of how far people would have to tromp/brush-whack we might be able to rule out highschool pranksters.

Nope, can't rule them out solely on that account. It's only around 200 or 300 meters from a narrow road.

Is it secluded enough that you could see a small group doing a ceremony at night in the dark with candles/torches and not be noticed?

Not very likely at all to see something like that just passing along the road. You'd have to actually get up into the woods to see it.

I ask these questions because they haven't been...many are leaning to wiccan/modern day worship. Knowing how hard the site is to access and how private it is might help answer that theory.

As I've mentioned before, there ARE witches around here, but they view wicca with some disdain, considering it to be nothing more than a 20th century synthesized construct. More bluntly, they think that wicca is a modern, made up religion, which has no bearing on true witchcraft. Their own traditions have been handed down for generations, and appear to me to have been hybridized from European (mostly Scottish and Irish) traditions, and Indian (mostly Shawnee and Delaware) traditions. I can say this with confidence because some in my own family have been involved in such undertakings over the years, so I'm not a complete outsider to it.

The short answer is that the site is not hard to access, especially for the young, it's well-secluded enough, but wicca doesn't have a very good toehold here.

Sigils are another matter. That's more of a possibility, but there are so many, and I've never seen one quite like this, but it's not an impossibility just because I've never seen it.

[edit on 2010/3/30 by nenothtu]

[edit on 2010/3/31 by nenothtu]

First of all, s&f for this. I really, really hope this is genuine. You really need to call a university or google geologists. That thing is there for a reason. You might have stumbled onto something really important.

These posts live on forever. If someone tried to steal the credit for the find, you could prove it was you first.

Originally posted by asIam

The stone is intriguing to say the least, and beautiful.
I understand you not releasing co-ordinates, but could you possibly take a snapshot of close in surrounding terrain on google earth so's we could see if it is possible maybe to be a map of sorts?
Just for a process of elimination of possibilities,you needn't show specific identifers or coordinates.

Sure. I just have to install GE on this machine first, and I didn't stay long enough to get a GPS reading yesterday, so the location may be off, but only by a few meters. I'll do that now, post it, and refine the location tomorrow.

Originally posted by Logarock

Yes its not ogham but there were a lot of celtic types that moved around in those areas early 1700 and on. One can find thier names in old documents and early census records as they were in the original before many were anglicized. This could be something along the lines of a "holler"
claim marker. Is it easy to see for anyone gettting off the water way and heading up in there?

It's right in the middle of the stream bed, on the most likely avenue of approach from the river. The hillsides are steep, and it's much easier to walk right up the middle, where this rock is.

Some of those celtic types you mention are among my ancestors, and they were the first white folks in this area. Adam O'Brien was one of them, my "7 greats back" grandfather. I'm unfamiliar with this "holler marker" concept. Can you elaborate? where else could I find information on it?

It's my understanding that O'Brien blazed trees with a hatchet as markers.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by nenothtu

 

I'm now wondering, why does it need to be a symbol at all? Could it have had a function do you suppose. Oddly enough a Whiskey Barrel is the right dimensions on the bottom that the outer rim would seat into that nicely. The little square cutout is just right for the tap or cork. That pattern of the "tree" is often seen in the bottom of old trays to drain liquids.

Do you suppose that it might have been a place in the stream to keep a barrel of water or other beverage cold? The bottom of a traditional Whiskey Barrel is just the right size to fit?

Another thought to muddy up the water.

as I recall oak whiskey barrels, it's probably about the size of the bottom of one. However, the square cutout probably isn't deep enough to accommodate the tap, and certainly not deep enough to accommodate a receptacle placed under the tap.

At one time, there was a moonshine still a few hundred meters up the main hollow, under a large rock. It would have been a lot of trouble to get a full barrel of whiskey down that main hollow, and then up this little side hollow, through the brush, though. Usually, jugs were filled at the still, and carried out by the jug.

Originally posted by Donny 4 million
I spend large amounts of my time doing this kind of canvassing.
I have a artifact and fossil collection to beat the band.
I would not even venture a guess besides a grave stone for what you show. Dig it out or be real about it being bedrock or a huge bolder.
You do not present enough information to make any kind of determination.
Stop posting and dig. I want to see the back of the object. If you please.

It's dark. I've already worked cutting wood all day. Patience is a virtue.

Since the rock is oriented horizontally, the "back" from the symbol would be the "bottom" of the rock, and I have no idea how far down it goes.

Furthermore, it's in the middle of a stream, and large enough that I don't have the wherewithall to move it. I'll not be digging it out, or digging the stream out from around it. I'll get up there for more pictures, measurements, and to see if I can discover any edges to indicate whether it's a part of the bedrock, or a separate stone, tomorrow.

I'm not going to disturb it, or the surroundings, any more than I absolutely have to.

I don't know about your people, but mine would never bury a loved one in the middle of a watercourse, among rocks. Since my people are the ones who live here, I'm fairly sure it''s not a grave marker.

Originally posted by spliff4020
First of all, s&f for this. I really, really hope this is genuine. You really need to call a university or google geologists. That thing is there for a reason. You might have stumbled onto something really important.

These posts live on forever. If someone tried to steal the credit for the find, you could prove it was you first.

I'm not worried about getting credit for the find. I didn't find it anyhow, an uncle of mine did, a few days ago, while out hunting for wild greens. There are some archaeologists coming here in a few days on an unrelated matter, and I think my cousin is going to contact them about it. he says he is, anyhow.

Is there an area (underneath this 'boulder') for fire to heat it?
Are there any (3 or 4) posthole location places around it?
look for another large flat rock not far away (and maybe other incised rocks/boulders)

-this was for 'cold forging' a Copper Shield.
There should be a Swordmaking place too!