Scientists discover moral compass in the brain which can be controlled by magnets

reply to post by melatonin


Thank you for the reassurance and clarification

Seems they have a while to go, then, before they're able to produce tiny and accurate devices such as we've been discussing, i.e., mobile (cell) phones

sigh of relief time ... for the moment at least

Thanks again

reply to post by timewalker

The goal of the Preventing Sleep Deprivation program is to define and implement approaches to prevent the harmful effects of sleep deprivation, and to provide methods for recovery of function with particular emphasis on cognitive and psychomotor impairments. Among the approaches currently under investigation include novel pharmaceuticals that enhance neural transmission, nutraceuticals that promote neurogenesis, cognitive training, and devices such as transcranial magnetic stimulation. The approaches discovered in this program will greatly increase our soldiers’ ability to function more safely and effectively despite the prolonged wakefulness inherent in current operations

WHAT? So let me ask what may be plainly obvious...you're saying the Government has literally been manipulating the morality of soldiers?

EDIT: And it can be scientifically proven? But they'll just claim they had no idea...

[edit on 30/3/10 by CHA0S]

reply to post by Dock9


Wow, so now when I screw up and do somthing immoral, I don't have to blame the Devil anymore? I just claim I was misled by a magnetic force, right? I can see the lawyers lining up that defense for everything their clients can dream up

This sounds like one of those stories that will be revised with further study proving their original assumptions flawed and invalid. I will withhold judgement till confirmed by extensive testing.

OK, just read the paper.

The effects are merely a modulation of moral judgement. Thus, what they were interested in was the effect of virtual lesions in the TPJ on judgements of accidental vs. intentional harms.

The results show that with TMS effects people judge intentional harms to be more permissible, but still less permissible than accidental harms.

For example, you might think that intentionally putting poison in someone's coffee is very very strongly not permissible. After TMS you might judge the action very strongly not permissible.

Doesn't make judgements of not permissible actions suddenly permissible. Moreover, remember that this is about judging others actions. Not their own actual behaviour (we don't need TMS to justify our own errant actions). Indeed, it is central to the inference of the study, as the TPJ is known to be implicated in theory of mind (i.e., reading others intentions).

ABE: Thought some might find this interesting. Here's a video of Rebecca Saxe (she's the senior researcher here) at TED talking about her work:



[edit on 30-3-2010 by melatonin]

[edit on 30-3-2010 by Frakkerface]

Interesting subject.

Of course since it was the dailymail, I had to find other links since dm really exaggerates their stories.

Here is what I found if anyone would like to read further on the subject.

www.timesonline.co.uk...


web.mit.edu...



And the google search of the DRs name.

www.google.com...:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a


Interesting, the seeming connection between cell phones and this. I talk up to my left ear though. I wonder what I am frying on that side!

Great work, Hotbakedtater and Melatonin

Thank you for additional subject matter (including the video)

So all our mobile phones have speakers in them that contain magnets, and seeing as the majority of the public is right handed that could be an alarming worry.
But I suppose it depends on the strength of the magnet and the fortitude of the persons character.

I used to use mobile phone a lot. Keep getting headaches from use. Never suffered headaches before (guess where i was getting them). I always told people about this and some people would agree.

Then good few years ago mobiles were given the thumbs up and we were promised that they do no harm. I use mobile a lot less now becuase I know instinctively that they cause me headaches.

So , I was delighted few months back, last year sometime the WHO were due to release new recommedations on mobiles and news that there is possibly a health risk associated with them. THey had previosuly ok'd them. I was delighted. Finally people might start believing my concerns. This was to do with the long term study of people using them.

Ever since, as far as I am aware there has been a defeaning silence from the WHO. There is no statement and I am guessing there won't be one. TPTB have obviously blocked this disclosure.

THis is like the history of smokes. You won't find out for decades they are really bad for your health.




peace.

reply to post by Dock9


There is a urban myth going around about cell phones being programmed to access, control or manipulate this area of the brain.

I had heard it but since I won't use a cell phone...

(because they absolutely do cause tumorous tissue to form - especially in the brains of children)

...unless I hold it quite far from my head - I really didn't pay these reports much attention.

What could "they" (a company like Monsanto) do with "the right" cell phone app?

[edit on 30-3-2010 by rusethorcain]

the only thing that worries me is usually when they publish such findings the technology has already been out for quit some time! goes to show me why i see so many peeps day to day more worried about making telephone calls than the world around them!!

Back to the research paper Disruption of the right temporoparietal junction with transcranial magnetic stimulation reduces the role of beliefs in moral judgments:

Relative to TMS to a control site, TMS to the RTPJ caused participants to judge attempted harms as less morally forbidden and more morally permissible. Thus, interfering with activity in the RTPJ disrupts the capacity to use mental states in moral judgment, especially in the case of attempted harms.

Rebecca Saxe leads SaxeLabs at MIT, but the study's lead author is Liane Lee Young. From Young's bio under "Research":

I majored in philosophy as an undergraduate in order to pursue my interest in bioethics. Working on my thesis (Harvard College ‘04) on the role of intention in moral judgment, I became intrigued by how people (philosophers, bioethicists, and the folk) make moral judgments in the first place. Is moral judgment accomplished by reason or intuition? To what extent does emotion play a role? How does theory of mind (the capacity to represent the mental states of others) fit into the picture?

About Young's role at SaxeLab :

Liane Young - Post Doc

Moral Judgment & Theory of Mind

I study the neural basis of human moral judgment. I am primarily interested in the extent to which emotional processes inform moral judgment and the precise role of Theory of Mind, the capacity for mental state representation, in moral judgment. Are brain regions that support Theory of Mind recruited for moral judgment, specifically, judgment of intentional and unintentional harmful, helpful, and neutral actions? If so, what do their functional profiles reveal about belief attribution during moral judgment? What are the component processes of belief attribution for moral judgment, and does spontaneous belief attribution occur in certain moral contexts? To address questions like these, I use methods of cognitive neuroscience: functional neuroimaging (fMRI), studying patient populations with selective cognitive deficits, and modulating activity in specific brain areas using trancranial magnetic stimulation (TMS).

Clearly, Liane Young is the key researcher and study lead. Her bio, background and lines of questioning are quite interesting.

...and I definitely think we need to extrapolate - look beyond direct stimulation and acute impacts.

Speculation is a GOOD thing.

Originally posted by soficrow
Clearly, Liane Young is the key researcher and study lead. Her bio, background and lines of questioning are quite interesting.

Nope, she isn't. It's Rebecca, and it will be her grant. Liane Young is her post-doc and the primary author (was post -doc is more appropriate, as Liane is now at Boston College).

In research you tend to see the senior scientist take the last author's position and the primary author is the junior researcher. It's normal and a simple way to get the junior researcher's name out there (as a post-doc is seen as a period of training).

[edit on 30-3-2010 by melatonin]

Originally posted by melatonin
lol, guys, TMS isn't like a little magnet you can put in a hat.

TMS uses a large butterfly coil and pulses of ca. 2 teslas. It also requires exact placement using structural MRI to ensure it acts in the required region of the neocortex (we are talking very specific cortical regions). It further needs to applied in a very particular fashion, as poor application readily leads to seizure.

But they might be able to find a way to filter down the size, and make the targeting less finicky. Computers used to be huge rooms. It's not a direct corollary, but it's possible the tech could advance. Especially now with proof of concept.

And, finally, we don't need TMS to make people act monstrous or become amoral. See WWII.

The concern would be about making pepole become amoral against their will. The Nazis all made a choice. A coerced choice in roughly every situation, yes, but they still had at least a semblance of a choice.



I just read your other post, and I guess it's not even THAT much proof of concept... But still, this could go to bad places.

reply to post by CHA0S

I'm just putting 2 and 2 together. The first article I posted had the DARPA link provided. As a few posters have stated, if this is what they are advertising, imagine what they already have in production or even scarier, in testing now. I would think what ever we hear about, the military has been using in the field for at least a decade.

I would think that if DARPA had put that they con control a combat soldiers moral judgment, it might not fly over so well with the public.

But I guess making combat zombies out of them does?

so, since we use cell phones pretty much on mass bases and specially in first world country... can one speculate that the electro magnetic field being created by such devices and as we place it by our ear to hear... could automatically cause this part of brain region to start being effected? and if so, does that explain how we evolve technologically we fall further away from humanity... could they have known about this long time ago and have mass marketed such devices like cell phones to be used by mass (most phones are free now, and we all know nothing is really free in this world) to simply dehumanize us?

This could be an excellent tool for interrogaters to use on extremist suspects of any kind or ideology!

However, this study in itself, may only show that distraction causes errors in moral judgement.

I'm still not convinced of it's utility yet - I would like to see some more field work and results for sure.

I also wonder if this will work on sociopathic and pathological personalities like we so often see in Politics - for example would such a "virtual legion" lead them to forget to watch out for their own self interest and spill the beans when questioned?

If so - let's get Dick Cheney under one of these a.s.a.p. - he is the lynchpin for many unanswerable questions civilians have right now!

(i.e. UFO's/9-11/Continuity of Government/Etc...)

Originally posted by Solasis
But they might be able to find a way to filter down the size, and make the targeting less finicky. Computers used to be huge rooms. It's not a direct corollary, but it's possible the tech could advance. Especially now with proof of concept.

True, but the loud clicking sound would make it pretty obvious to the person they were being TMS'd.

TMS has been around for decades. The technology is nothing new.

The concern would be about making pepole become amoral against their will. The Nazis all made a choice. A coerced choice in roughly every situation, yes, but they still had at least a semblance of a choice.

However, that's not what the study is about. Merely making judgements about others actions and intentions. Which it appears you figured in time...

Actually forcing actions against someone's will require a bit more than using TMS to make someone's limbs flinch (which is about the extent of its ability)

I just read your other post, and I guess it's not even THAT much proof of concept... But still, this could go to bad places.

I'm sure. There's little in human behaviour that can't go to bad places. Sort of inherent to human nature.

Won't stop scientists doing the science to understand such fundamental human behaviours as found in the moral domain. Unless you think we shouldn't study mind and behaviour...

[edit on 30-3-2010 by melatonin]

Sry not trying to be a disbeliever (in this case I am glad I am in a way )
But this story is only circulating on "our" sites nothing credible. I wouldn't believe dailymail if my life depended on it. Just look at some of the lawsuits they have for libel

The Daily Mail has been involved in a number of notable libel suits. Among them are:

* 2009 - January - £30,000 award to Dr Austen Ivereigh, who had worked for Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, following false accusations made by the newspaper concerning abortion.[37]
* 2006 - May - £100,000 damages for Elton John, following false accusations concerning his manners and behaviour.[38]
* 2003 - October — Actress Diana Rigg awarded £30,000 in damages over a story commenting on aspects of her personality.[39]
* 2001 - February — Businessman Alan Sugar was awarded £100,000 in damages following a story commenting on his stewardship of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club

I know ppl wanna be the first to post something up for the little "popularity contest" ppl seem to think S&F is about but its not. Its about producing the TRUE facts comming from places that are not quoted as "The Daily Mail is a British daily middle market TABLOID newspaper. Just try to do some research on subjects before you put em on here guys. This forum is turning into a tabloid itself with all this nonsense....

[edit on 30-3-2010 by Jeffdogg]

This makes me think of HAARP and electromagentic fields and project bluebeam.